Not Your Dad's Divorce

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  • Posted By: McQuirter @ 12/16/2008 10:31:29 AM

    The court system does NOT exist to foster relationships. It exists soley to decide upon legal issues. The court cannot shoulder the blame for emotional distress. The posts on this board indicate very high levels of emotional immaturity- which is probably what led to the failed relationships and the need for court intervention.

    First of all, take responsibility. You share in the breakdown of the relationship- period. Second, put your children ahead of your "rights." You give up the right to do, have, say everything you want when you have children. If you can share custody in away that provides structure, support and a loving nurturing enviornment then do it. If not, figure our- without the courts a way to do that. If you cannot be adult enough to figure it out then expect for the flawed judicial system to figure it out for you, and expect to not like their decision.

    Don't get into a long bitter cat fight with your ex. What are you going to accomplish? Get on with life! And do not expect the rest of the world to cater to your needs. Get a therapist and stop disrupting the lives of your co-workers, colleagues, and acquaintences with your bitterness.

    But by all means, put YOUR children first not you.

    • Posted By: Forthechildren @ 12/16/2008 10:59:16 AM

      Bravo McQuirter!!! Perfectly said! And with no gender bashing!!

    • Posted By: Forthechildren @ 12/16/2008 10:57:41 AM

      Bravo McQuirter!!! I agree with every word you said. And thank you for no gender bashing in your comment.

  • Posted By: drgstarflash @ 12/16/2008 10:52:40 AM

    As a father who won custody of his kids, I see a lot of gender bias in this story. Even though it is trying to prove that fathers that want to be in their kids life somehow do get a chance. I had to fight the legal system with a lawyer that never really believed that I had the right to keep my kids. It was my will and determination that won me my kids. The mother never wanted them after she asked for the divorce. She cheated on me and left me for a man with more money. The kids were living with me when she won custody. I was ordered to pay child support, her rent and half of the amount of daycare. When we were still married, daycare was free. She moved them to another part of town to be closer to her boyfriend and the judge dismissed every attempt of mine to prove that I was the primary caregiver to the children from the day my second chil was born and I cared for them 85% of the time. During the seperation they were living with me and the judgment hurt more because the kids were being taken away from me. She had temporary custody of the children until she finally realized how hard it was to take care of them, and couldn't do it anymore. She moved in with her boyfriend and gave up the kids, and I have had them ever since. Then when I got married, she started to fight for them. My ex-wife did everything she could to take them away from me. Including filing a false claim of assault on my current wife. She said she'd bankrupt me until I gave her the kids and she is still fighting to this day. Until the legal system sees that she is fighting a battle just to spite me, I am never going to live in peace. And because she is the mother she will always be listened to. She is crying "wolf."

  • Posted By: dmac2002 @ 12/16/2008 10:36:10 AM

    It is possible for divorce parents to continue the support of their children in two households. Like the author, my divorced family has celebrated the special events in the same way; we are now ready to celebrate the last of three college graduations with the traditional celebratory dinner with all grandparents and both step-parents. It does take getting used to, but now my children appreciate the hard work it took to get us to this point. Now they are suggesting to their stepmom that she encourages the same kind of relationship with their step-sisters dad. In the end, it's the best thing for the kids.

  • Posted By: dmac2002 @ 12/16/2008 10:35:55 AM

    It is possible for divorce parents to continue the support of their children in two households. Like the author, my divorced family has celebrated the special events in the same way; we are now ready to celebrate the last of three college graduations with the traditional celebratory dinner with all grandparents and both step-parents. It does take getting used to, but now my children appreciate the hard work it took to get us to this point. Now they are suggesting to their stepmom that she encourages the same kind of relationship with their step-sisters dad. In the end, it's the best thing for the kids.

  • Posted By: dmac2002 @ 12/16/2008 10:34:59 AM

    It is possible for divorce parents to continue the support of their children in two households. Like the author, my divorced family has celebrated the special events in the same way; we are now ready to celebrate the last of three college graduations with the traditional celebratory dinner with all grandparents and both step-parents. It does take getting used to, but now my children appreciate the hard work it took to get us to this point. Now they are suggesting to their stepmom that she encourages the same kind of relationship with their step-sisters dad. In the end, it's the best thing for the kids.

  • Posted By: Danny Guspie @ 12/16/2008 10:27:51 AM

    Fathers Resources International offers Free Weekly Webcasts to help divorced dads at http://www.Fathers-Resources.com on Sundays at 8PM EST and http://www.DivorcedDadWeekly.net You can learn the skills and strategies of the many successful divorced dads we have helped over the last 15 years.

    The key is to focus on the things that unite for the sake of our children, instead of that which divides us; learn how to effectively wage peace as a negotiation, mediation and/or litigation strategy.

    Learn these tactics and strategies from two adult children of divorce...

    My name is Danny Guspie, and I am the Executive Director of Fathers Resources International. I have been a divorced dad, step dad, law clerk, coach and counselor, helping dads achieve their goals; My partner, Heidi Nabert, is President of The National Shared Parenting Association. She is an adult child of divorce, step-mom and international divorce reform activist for the last 15 years.

    Here's what lawyers do not explain to most people: Evidence is what happens outside of Court - You have an enormous opportunity to influence what that evidence is.

    However the difficulty for most dads is their lawyer does not explain this concept, nor educates them on how to go about this. When you listen to our webcast regularly, you will learn how, from the fathers who have already won in Family Court where peace for children = winning.

    I am one of those dads. 20 tears ago I was going through my own miserable divorce. There were no services for men, so I set services up for them in Southern, Ontario, Canada. We now help dads worldwide.

    You need more than a good lawyer, you need a proven plan that works, because 50-85% of you either can't afford a lawyer, or can't keep paying for one.

    You will need to learn how to conduct your case when you can't afford a lawyer - That's what we have been teaching dads to do with great success for 15 years. Even when they have a lawyer, we've been able to help dads better understand their situation.

    For those looking for real practical help,we are starting a coaching program that gives access to hundreds of hours of audio and Study guides to help you look at these problems from an entirely new and more helpful perspective. Most people think they only have a legal problem, when in fact it is what goes on outside of Court and your conduct or reaction to being provoked that causes the legal problem.

    we hope to see you on our webcast soon. You don't have to keep losing badly - there are answers to most cases. Only the most extreme 1% of cases are not resolvable. The remaining 99% are.

    Come learn how.

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    Executive Director
    Fathers Resources International
    1-888-54-Daddy

  • Posted By: momibabe @ 12/15/2008 10:07:49 PM

    Wow - a lot of angry posts...I don't think anyone will ever agree on who is right or wrong in a divorce...so maybe it's ok to agree to disagree.? I would like to offer though that there are mothers out there that believe it's in their children's best interests to have their father in their life as much as their mother - I am one of those moms. When I discovered my relationship of 17 years was over because my husband was in an emotional relationship with one of my best friends, I ended the marriage...and I requested we share custody. I offered that my ex have our two children half of the week...and I have them half of the week - and I requested no child support (just 50% sharing of the costs/daycare, healthcare etc) My ex and I worked out the details of the dissolution of our marriage on our own fairly well - but it was the influences of the attorney's which lead us to often act negatively towards each other (our of money hungry attorney's preying on our fears and insecurities). It wasn't easy at the time but 5 years later I think we're happier as two families living a mile apart (we have both since remarried other spouses). and our kids are healthy and happy with the arrangement It's a difficult, slipperly slope to navigate but I wish all divorcing parents my sincerest congratulations if they've manage to get through these troubled times positively and end up with an agreement that's #1 best for the kids, #2 fair for both divorcing parents,

    • Posted By: dicedealer72 @ 12/15/2008 10:30:17 PM

      I agree taht not all mothers are vindictive, but we are few and far between. I left my son's father, we were never married, early in my son's life. I sught out a lawyer because the dad said he would take him and I would never see him again. i was scared, when i walked into his office he instantly started talking about support, i ssaid "I don't want his money. I just want a piece of paper that says he can't take him and if he does he'll be in big trouble.' The lawyer said that's not how it works, it's paternity, support, then custody. I get minimal amount and there have been times when he hasn't paid, sometimes for 1-2 years, but he still sees his son. My son loves his father and he deserves a relationship with him, whether he pays support or not. If I refuse to alloe him tosse his son becasue he hasn't paid, then who am I really hurting? My son, and it's not worth it. I have never said he couldn't see his son, even when it is outside our order, because what's the difference, my son deserves that relationship and I'm going to make sure I develop and nurture it.

      • Posted By: roadkill1965 @ 12/16/2008 10:16:15 AM

        Good for you! When my ex-wife first left me (for a married man), I was very bitter toward her and, admittedly, really bad-mouthed her a lot in front of our daughter. One day, I was saying something negative about my ex, when I heard a whine from my daughter. I could see a look of hurt on her face, and decided right there to stop saying bad things about her mother in front of her. I asked my current wife to do the same, and I???ve really noticed the difference in my daughter. My ex has gone through a string of guys now, but I keep my mouth shut (at least in front of my daughter). At least my ex seems to have good taste in men, because they are pretty decent, employed fellows. I guess it could be far worse. We even get along civilly, and have never had a dispute over custody arrangements. I believe it is critical for your children???s well-being to allow them to love their other parent without filling their heads with your negative feelings.

    • Posted By: missingyouannmarie @ 12/16/2008 6:01:26 AM

      way to go, and i agree LAWYERS are nothing but money slugs, look at the county financial picture and tell me lawyers are not making a killing on it, much less all the politicians who are making the decisions with no economic degrees under their belts, getting kickbacks from lobbyist and unions.

  • Posted By: bjfarmer2008 @ 12/16/2008 10:01:56 AM

    Unfortunately, our family witnessed first-hand how joint custody does not work. My daughter felt as if she never unpacked. Her father treated time with him as a one-up game on me...insisting that she be at his house on schedule, regardless of illness or her wishes to alter the schedule. He looked at it as his time for her to be with him, not his time to support her in homework, take her to birthday parties, or generally spend time with her. Unless both parents are willing to bend schedules, have a true home at both houses (clothes, personal items, etc. - which means dad has to spend money for these as well as mom), you can end up with a child that is constantly traveling in turmoil. She doesn't bring enough clothes to dad's house for the month of summer? Tough. He's not going to shell out $ for clothes. She forgot her favorite stuffed toy for the weekend? Too bad. She'll get it when she goes back to mom's. Don't ask the court to remedy this. They're concerned with brutal cases of incest and such, because they're overloaded and can garner some kind of evidence for such abuse. Joint custody was the default choice for divorce in my state. It sounded like a good idea, but it isn't. My daughter has the scars to prove it.

  • Posted By: sdakotaishome @ 12/16/2008 9:58:51 AM

    I agree with many of the comments that have been made about this article. I too am a child of divorce. My parents divorced when I was 10 in the late 1970s. Their divorce was pretty typical as divorces go but I am still feeling the negative effects of what my parents and the system put me through. Unless there is abuse in the relationship I believe divorce is just a way for parents to encourage their self centeredness with no regard for the mental well being of the children. I think it is sad in this day in age when no one, parents, social servies or the courts, ask the children what they want. It's always about the parents, money and who has the best lawyer or who can tell the best lie in front of a judge.

  • Posted By: Scoobie @ 12/15/2008 9:37:33 PM

    Well this is encouraging for us fathers. However, when are the courts and government going to address the deception of a mother who deceives the presumed father of a child for years, files for divorce, and announces that the child is not the presumbed father. The mother has the court impose DNA testing against the fathers wishes. Test comes back negative and the biological rights of the presumed father is taken away and the mother moves the child out of state. The child has cemented memories and has the only father he has known taken away. Oh yeah...BTW...the biological father is not in the picture. Now a child is raised without the father figure he should have and has been a victum sharing the heartache of having a loved one ripped away. Statiistics indicate that this deceit is far more common than one would think ()mothers know), but the fathers are unaware. Emotional damage on the child and the father are immeasureable.

    • Posted By: roadkill1965 @ 12/16/2008 9:57:52 AM

      Actually, statistics show that when the man suspects he is not the father, about 1/3 of the time he's right.

  • Posted By: floydrichard @ 12/15/2008 8:57:39 PM

    Why does this story constantly refer to child support payments by the father? Why is this always assumed? Why does it not suggest that perhaps MOTHERS would have to make child support payments? Or, HEY, how about NO child support payments on either side??? Talk about gender bias!!!

    • Posted By: aformerabusedmom @ 12/16/2008 12:16:21 AM

      Because simply put, it has been proven that when a man and a woman divorce, men's standard of living stays the same or goes up and a woman's goes down. Many times she deep end dives right into poverty. Women are only paid 76 cents to every dollar that a man earns. Why do men whine about paying support? becaus eit is helping the mother? Get over yourself already. It will only last until the child is 18 or 21. Then you can gladly say, I no longer have to give her any money.

      • Posted By: roadkill1965 @ 12/16/2008 9:51:45 AM

        That standard of living myth has been dispelled, but still keeps popping up. It's from a study by Leonore J. Weitzman, ???The Economics of Divorce: Social and Economic Consequences of Property, Alimony, and Child Support Awards??? UCLA Law Review 28 (August, 1981). The study was referenced in countless court cases, and even cited by then President Clinton. A number of other social scientists requested her data so they could perform peer reviews, but she kept saying she lost the original data. Finally, years later, she was forced to produce the underlying data, and it showed that her figures were dramatically off. It was basically an ideologically biased study, which produced her desired results. Unfortunately, by then, the results had become accepted as conventional wisdom, which is nearly impossible to change.

  • Posted By: Josephine from Issaquah @ 12/16/2008 2:02:17 AM

    What I don't find reflected in this artical is the reality of domestic violence. for over 20 years statistics have shown 1in 3 marriages involved domestic violence. We have known over 30 years that 1 in 4 little girls is sexualy abused. How do the new rules of clild custody protect children from being abused and or seeing there motner abused. Most estimates are that domestic violence is present in 50-60% of divorces. That is a big big elephant on the court house steps that you are working hard to ignore. Josephine form Seattle MA. ABS,

    • Posted By: missingyouannmarie @ 12/16/2008 3:59:38 AM

      or it's a pink elephant that they created, which is the anger from the missing our children, which they enjoy creating because it makes them more convictions for more money think about that for a minute while you drink the kool-aid the NOW feed ya.

      • Posted By: summer4077 @ 12/16/2008 9:51:19 AM

        Wow you are a bitter, mean person. I understand how painful it is for you to not be with your child but your statements are completely false. There are women who want to use kids and money to punish their exes. There are also many men who bail on their children.

      • Posted By: missingyouannmarie @ 12/16/2008 6:24:52 AM

        oh you say 1 in 3 has DV but you don't say who is the victim, lets just assume it's the women, not always the facts get a clue

  • Posted By: summer4077 @ 12/16/2008 9:40:55 AM

    Wow, there are a lot of bitter posts on this site. I can understand that some men have been screwed over by the system--believe me, I have a brother that lives it every day. However, to make sweeping statements that all women are just looking for a payout is simply not true. I personally know way more women who have been screwed over by men than vice versa. Does that mean I think all men are deadbeat dads? Of course not. The court system is unfair to both sides because it often fails to look at the whole picture. There are women out there that use their kids for money and there are men that do the same. This is the fundamental problem that comes when society glamorizes divorce or single parenthood. It ususally doesn't work out well.

  • Posted By: northernsiren @ 12/16/2008 9:37:46 AM

    Deedra Hunter says "women should keep meticulous records to prove that they're using their child-support money for the kids" to win custody. Why can't this just be the rule? I think CS should be matched by BOTH parents into a joint account, out of which allotted DOCUMENTED expenses are paid. These can even become monthly payments to the custodial parent, % of rent, utilities, that's fine. Anything above and beyond allotted expenses should be agreed upon and signed off on by both parties. When the child turns 18, any left over $$ can be spent on vocational or college programs. Suddenly many children would have robust college accounts if the frivolous and SELFISH spending of custodial parents was stopped.

    Case in point, my fiance pays over 800 a month to his ex (note they were together for less than 2 yrs) his child has no furniture, sleeps on a mattress on the floor, and is fed ramen noodles and microwave pizza. She's expected to do all the housework, while her mother, my fiance's ex, sits around and doesn't work, watching tv. But technically she's not being abused, so there's nothing we can do.

    I'll tell you it's the system that's being abused AND this kid!

  • Posted By: wesmenno @ 12/16/2008 6:56:13 AM

    Why can't dads pay support "in kind"?
    With clothing and physical things the child needs, and groceries, and paying the utilities?
    Because it's not about the kids, it's about the money, much of which in the US goes to state government to reimburse their support offices and welfare systems.

    • Posted By: summer4077 @ 12/16/2008 9:34:22 AM

      I actually kind of agree with this. Kind of like a reimbursement basis...some women DO try to take the men for all they are worth. Those women should have to provide proof of where the money is going. I know women who consistently ask for more and more money, driving luxury cars and visiting high-end salons when the kids are running around and rags.

  • Posted By: MarkMN @ 12/16/2008 5:48:40 AM

    Prior to my divorce, while under an OFP (yet often meeting at her request/demand) - I once asked my then-wife of twenty+ years, why she was unwilling to drop the OFP. Her response was that she was afraid of how those around her, and those who had borrowed her money would feel about her if she did (drop the OFP).

    When the first salvo in a divorce war comes from an OFP / Restraining Order, and a father is legally shoved out of his children???s lives with vague, false, and baseless allegations ??? joint custody is often only a dream. Unfortunately it is only a dream to many, many, many fathers.

    A good friend of mine told me after my son died: ???Now he (my Son) knows the truth (about his mother ??? about me).??? Yes ??? he does. I take comfort in that. My (now) oldest son and his girlfriend, and my youngest son are planning to spend part of Christmas day with me and my fiancé ??? a 1st in four years. That is a good thing.

    * Income = abt. $400.00 net/week ??? 50% of net income taken for Support
    * Support Arrears = $65,000.00(+/-) - This continued to grow each month until earlier this year when I finally got my Ex???s Spousal Maintenance eliminated (over a year after she re-married ??? the judge wouldn???t eliminate it retroactively)
    * Education = 2 year Vocational Certificate / Computer Programming - circa 1983
    * Ex blackmailed me into giving up paid re-education effort in 2003 -- in favor of ???potential??? reconciliation (...I said I wasn???t perfect, and obviously I ???felt with more emotion???, than I thought straight)
    * I lived in a 12???x12??? room at the back of a strip mall for a year and half
    * No drivers license from April 2005 through May 2008 (due to support arrears, and lack of money to get a lawyer able to challenge it)
    * No insurance (health or life)
    * The last time I saw all three of my remaining children together at the same time ??? a year ago

    I???m not perfect ??? I never claimed to be. I don???t have all the answers. I am human, and a father. But I???m not allowed to be a parent. Early on during the past five and half years ??? it took everything I could muster to will myself to go on, to keep fighting for justice, for equality as a parent. I didn???t give up. I encourage every father to ??? Not Give Up!

    Fathers are not emotionless robots with little regard for who or how their children are raised. Because of the laws, child support calculations, a still very real huge disposition towards woman as sole custodial parents, and especially due to fear, insecurity, and lack of self-esteem ??? there will continue to be far more Beat-Dead Dads, then there are Dead-Beat Dads.

    Ask me if I love my children? Do I want to be a part of their lives? --- I???ll ask you: Will you allow me to?

    • Posted By: jscott2135 @ 12/16/2008 8:44:52 AM

      Mark - great post! Women in genal have manipulated the system and their spouses for so long that a dad going into divorce has an uphill battle to face from the onset. Why can't we fight back - not for special rights, but for equal right?s????

  • Posted By: jscott2135 @ 12/16/2008 8:39:49 AM

    Obviously who ever wrote this article isn't familiar with Washington State where there is still a huge gender bias. Mom gets the kids always unless you can prove she is doing and will do physical harm to them. It's pathetic to think that moms make better parents just because they are women. And it's unfortunate that women are such emotional people (I'm a woman by the way) they generally let their emotions run them, they're in it for a paycheck for their kids and want to hold their kids over their fathers head for the rest of their lives. Women who want alimony or need and depend solely on child support are weak and an embarrassment to the rest of us self sufficient women out there. 90% of women who take money from their husbands after a divorce are admitting that they are mentally and physically and emotionally incapable of pulling themselves up by the boot straps and making a better life for themselves ??? even after divorce they are still wholly dependant on men. Pathetic ??? and this is who gets the kids in almost every case in Washington State ??? great example MOMS!!!

  • Posted By: jscott2135 @ 12/16/2008 8:37:29 AM

    Obviously who ever wrote this article isn't familiar with Washington State where there is still a huge gender bias. Mom gets the kids always unless you can prove she is doing and will do physical harm to them. It's pathetic to think that moms make better parents just because they are women. And it's unfortunate that women are such emotional people (I'm a woman by the way) they generally let their emotions run them, they're in it for a paycheck for their kids and want to hold their kids over their fathers head for the rest of their lives. Women who want alimony or need and depend solely on child support are weak and an embarrassment to the rest of us self sufficient women out there. 90% of women who take money from their husbands after a divorce are admitting that they are mentally and physically and emotionally incapable of pulling themselves up by the boot straps and making a better life for themselves ??? even after divorce they are still wholly dependant on men. Pathetic ??? and this is who gets the kids in almost every case in Washington State ??? great example MOMS!!!

  • Posted By: mygirljj @ 12/16/2008 7:50:50 AM

    what a perfect devorce it made me laugh they don.t alll end on a happy note and perfect end like that DO They.

  • Posted By: knockeddown @ 12/15/2008 9:35:45 PM

    I pay close to a $1000 a month, take care of the travel and make sure the medical bills are paid before the next visit. Visitation is every other weekend and odd holidays, its an 800 mile weekend. THe ex is calling if the state is late sending her the check, I have no control over what they do after its taken out of my paycheck. The last phone call was her car payment was going to be late if she didn't get her check. I am raising 2 children and trying to keep a house together, but now she tells my daughter I am white trash and to quit worrying about the next visit.

    • Posted By: missingyouannmarie @ 12/16/2008 6:17:53 AM

      last time mine called it was 200 in the morning drunk off her butt to tell me she was putting HER child on restriction for actions I have no control over and then blamed me for it, then pissed and moaned about not getting the checks on time, I guess she needed more beer money. I haven't seen daughter in 8 yrs physically and last pic was from 6 yrs ago. I feel your pain

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