The Good Book and Gay Marriage

Again yeshualover, Let Scripture guide you. Acts 19:8 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, ARGUING persuasively about the kingdom of God.
There were various ways that the Gospel was preached by Jesus and the disciples. Righteous anger, very gently, arguing / debating etc. Some times blatantly stating the truth can seem harsh or argumentative, yet is very necessary.
Your loving gentle approach is a gift too. 1st Peter 3:15. Seed is planted in many different ways.

Darincovey, I appreciate your concern for those in our world who have been led astray, and I also share your concern. However, may I humbly warn you that unless we warn these people in love, without arguing, we will be doing more harm than good? The intent of my last post was not to say that we should let our morals slip by, but that we should speak the truth in love, just as Jesus Himself told us to do. Just as Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah stood up against the charms and wrongdoings of Babylon, so must we within our cultural Babylon. These four made clear that they would maintain their integrity and live as their God wanted, but they did not, for instance, argue with Nebuchadnezzar's officials to force the other Hebrew captives to do the same.

I am not attempting to discredit you! On the contrary, I am speaking to you as one Christian to another, and I think that if Christians throughout our country can make our morals and beliefs known and understood, without anger and conflict, we will be doing our world a great service. I greatly admire your dedication to this cause!

for you yeshualover. you say "This doesn't mean we cannot be active or support our causes, but rather, we should seek to make Christ our focus instead of pointing out the flaws in the world." CHRIST is our focus thats exactly why we warn ( point out practicing sin ). CHRIST and the disciples spent a huge part of there ministry warning. Practicing Sin separates people for GOD. Many would like to say we hate when we warn, yet would they say this about CHRIST and the disciples ? they use the word hate trying to convince others and themselves we are doing something wrong, yet they warn all the time. Let scripture speak for itself we you decide not to point out the practicing of sin " James 5:20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins." and what this rich man wished he could have done for his family as he sat in this place of torment.
Luke 27 ??? 28 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him WARN them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.???

This discussion is making me sad, and I'm beginning to wish I had never looked at this article. This is not because I feel I've been outwitted or that I have been convinced my beliefs are wrong, but rather I feel that when discussions pertaining to Christian beliefs turn into targeting and bashing, it defeats the entire purpose. Accusations and name-calling will get us nowhere, and no one will give our opinions a second thought if we force them down the throats of others. I can honestly say that I can see both sides of this debate, and it is a very difficult decision to make, but I think that everyone knows where I stand in regards to this issue. I've done my best to present my beliefs in a loving, intelligent way, and I'm sorry if I have failed with this by offending anyone. I can assure you it was not my intent, and I would very much appreciate it if this board would cease its hostility. Speaking to those who share my opinion, I think that as a Christian, it is all right to keep our mouths shut when politics come around. This doesn't mean we cannot be active or support our causes, but rather, we should seek to make Christ our focus instead of pointing out the flaws in the world. I am guilty of this, but I think that it would be amazing for us all to make an effort to turn this around.
To those who do not share my opinion: I respect your convictions, and it is not my place to tell you what to believe. God has given you free will, and you are very much entitled to make your own decisions, and I am very sorry if I have imposed upon that.

I'm sorry that this discussion has come to this, and quite honestly, I don't think I will be replying to these comments anymore. I may check back to see what people are saying, but unless the hostility ends, I don't think it's right for me to be a part of the fighting. I will keep praying, though!

In Y'shua,
Emily

My brother says he was born a thief, and my sister says she was born a compulsive liar, my father was born violent, and my uncle says he was born addicted to alcohol and drugs, so its all good ? wake up Bonnie !

anyone can claim to be a Christian. Titus 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

There are gay Christians, despite the church, and an increasing number of gay friendly churches.

As to caring what the church thinks, I will quote Jeremy Hooper from his website goodasyou.org because he says it so well:

"...we want them to see their personal faith views for what they are -- their personal faith views -- and stop trying to foist their theological beliefs onto civil society [through legislation like prop 8].

"Far too many of the "pro-family" folk want a world where their beliefs are accepted as the one, true reality. They don't merely challenge gay-accepting theology -- they aggressively deny their opposition any willingness to keep an open mind, condemn the gay-friendly person of faith as being heretical, and present that person as being disconnected from God. There is no opportunity for dialogue -- the gay-accepting person is just wrong."

I am a bit curious,..why do gays really care what the christian church and the bible say about homosexuality... if the churches exercise their right to excommunicate them or otherwise not allow them based on faith and theological doctrine...there are other religons out there..other gods more accomadating.

Oh, that's easy. Remember the same close friend I was telling you about? The one who came out last year? He's the one that I discussed that theory with, and get this: he agreed with it. He doesn't doubt that he's gay, but he, too, said that he believes his background and experiences shaped that. His father left his family when he was very young, and he's been raised by his mother and grandmother with almost no male influence. He himself has said that he believes this has most likely played a part in his sexual orientation.
Therefore, I am not blindy basing my theories or opinions on my own thoughts. In definite answer to your question, that's how I get my beliefs.

yeshualover, how many gay people that you know have said that their orientation was "developed through experiences and environmental factors"? What percentage of the gay people you know would this amount to? Where do you get this belief? You say you don't believe it's a choice. Do you think that people not exposed to certain experiences and environmental factors are not still inherently gay? It seems like a contradiction to me.

I believe an overwhelmingly large percentage of people who are gay say they were born that way.

Why would God make someone gay and then say "You can't act on it - it's perverted and immoral."

The only two people god made was adam and eve, for that reason, i don't believe your statement of god making anybody really fits. Those two people decided to rebel and introduce sin into the world, so god didn't make anybody "gay" or murderer or a thief. We come to those decisions ourselves. We all have a responsibility to our own actions. That line right is pretty much what adam and eve gave god as an excuse " well the woman you gave me made me do so" "well the serpent you made, made me eat it"

"But the Bible has been translated from the original Greek where there was no word for homosexua{..}It is subject to interpretationl"

hetero and homo sexual words are not terms common speaking people came up with. You will not find the word heterosexual in the bible either. The bible is quite clear on the behaviors though or actions related to homosexuality.
Its not a subject to interpretation, its quite clear on the behaviors and/or actions of homosexuals, both in the old testament and the new testament. It isn't vague or hard to understand.

Bonnie, thank you for being able to discuss an issue like this as a civil person. I've been reading through the comments on here and they are absolutely hostile! I'm not sure how anyone expects to help their cause at all by referring to one with an opposing view as a "Christian American Taliban".

I definitely see your point about 'behavior', and I do agree with you that in many cases, homosexuality is, as you said, hard-wired. However, I don't think that in every single instance, this is the case. I believe that often one's orientation is developed through experiences and environmental factors. As for the 'choice', belief, I tend to question the reasoning. I don't understand why one would choose to be gay if they were, in fact, not.

However, I have many reasons as for my opinion on the Bible's accuracy of this topic. I think that I may have mentioned in one of my earlier posts that I have a very good friend who is Orthodox Jewish, and she also agrees with me on the Bible's clarity of the aforementioned issue. I find it interesting that she has read the Old Testament in the original Hebrew text, and still comes to the same conclusion. I wasn't sure that Newsweek presented their case as accurately as they might've, which makes me question much of the content in the article. Many of the scriptural references were taken out of context, along with a few other slight errors.

I know that some ask why we must follow the laws of the Old Testament if, for instance, we do not still stone adulterers. How are we to know which to follow, and which to disregard? I believe that the answer lies in the conclusions reached by the Jerusalem Council. There were certain laws that Gentile Christians were still required to follow, but not all of the laws in the Old Testament were included here. We can glean that even after these decisions were made, homosexuality was not considered to be among God's morals. Also, in the NIV translation of Romans 1:24-28, the word 'homosexuality' is never mentioned, but the concept is very clearly described, which I believe makes up for the lack of an actual established word.

However, no matter where I stand on this issue, I respect your opinion greatly, and I don't wish to cause dissension. I simply feel that voicing my opinion as inoffensively as possible will help to increase understanding among those with differing viewpoints, even though they themselves may not change their minds. That is definitely all right. It's one of the great things about our country! Again, thanks very much for discussing this intelligently and for not being offenseive. I really appreciate it!

If you'd like to read more about what reasons Christians will give in regards to their stance on this issue, here is a site that I think explains things fairly well. Again, don't feel obligated to read this in any way, but it's here if you'd like to.

http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/gay-rights

I am glad you are not offended. But I don't understand how you can have close gay friends and still refer to this as merely a "behavior." This is hard-wired. Why would God make someone gay and then say "You can't act on it - it's perverted and immoral." How did you advise your best friend? To be celibate, or hook up with a woman and do his best to be happy because that's God's will?

I've seen this compared to some sort of addiction like alcoholism - some are more inclined to become alcoholics. But alcoholism, compulsive gambling, etc., are destructive behaviours to the individual and those who love him. What harm is it if someone acts on their inclination to love someone of the same sex? It is not the same thimg. Yes, I've read the Bible verses. But the Bible has been translated from the original Greek where there was no word for homosexual. It is subject to interpretation. And it has been used in the past to justify ways of thinking that we now know are wrong. It should make any good Christian question their beliefs when another Christian can look at the exact same thing and see something entirely different.

Bonnie, I need to heartily disagree. I do not have gay acquaintances, I have gay friends. One of my best friends in the world came out last year, and we spent many hours discussing it and how he should approach the issue. I don't believe that you have met me, nor do you know of what background I come or who my friends are. Therfore, I don't believe that it is your place to assume these things, as you are very, very wrong. I am not offended, but next time, please do not try and make such an assumption that is so blindly based.

yeshualover, I've heard many people say, "I have friends who are gay," and it seems to be more of a shield to hide prejudice behind than a true statement. You should talk to your gay friends - really talk to them. You don't need details of what goes on in their bedrooms, but you should know what it felt like to discover that they were gay and what it was like coming out to their families (or not for fear of being ostracized). You need to know what it is like to live as a gay person in a society where what is natural for them is looked upon as perverted sin. Try putting that shoe on your foot and walking around in it. You have an imagination. You have the ability to empathize. You need to use it. Only then do you truly have gay friends. Right now, you have gay acquaintances.