The Noose Tightens

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  • Posted By: Mac305 @ 12/28/2008 8:48:23 AM

    They Needed Their First Amendment Zones for their Nuremburg like Rallies. Now lets give them their well earned Nuremburg like trials the earned. Ban the GOP . Send them down with the National Socialists and Baath parties forever.
    No more GOP plotting cabals and Enclaves harming us from within . Ever!









  • Posted By: Ublanketyblank @ 12/28/2008 8:37:19 AM

    If the American people were as lawless as the Bush administration the social order would breakdown in a single day and chaos would reign supreme.

  • Posted By: Xtlman @ 12/20/2008 11:18:04 AM

    For all of you 'kind hearted' people who think interrogation should be limited to just asking questions, we can see with criminals rights in the US just how effective getting a confession of guilt is. Sometimes extreme actions by extreme people require extreme measures to get information. Waterboarding and other methods have been used since Vietman through both Republican AND Democratic control. To attempt to lay the recent information brought to light to the general public on the Bush administration is absurd. America has an obligation to keep Americans safe, through whatever means possible. A Canadian citizen was caught in the US and deported to Syria where he was tortured and that is the administrations fault. That is B.S. It was not Americans in Syria that tortured him, it was Syrians. If we deport a Mexican national caught here in the US and deport him to back to where he belongs and he is tortured, that is also our fault I suppose. Amercians don't really want to know what it takes to keep them safe as long as they can get up in the morning, hop in their SUV, get a Starbucks and head off to work.

    • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/22/2008 11:32:41 AM

      "A Canadian citizen was caught in the US and deported to Syria where he was tortured and that is the administrations fault. That is B.S. It was not Americans in Syria that tortured him, it was Syrians. "

      And who wrongfully and intentionally sent him there? Oh, yeah. The Americans.

      Assigning a proxy to do your dirty work doesn't help.

      • Posted By: Col Kilgore @ 12/28/2008 1:59:05 AM

        Dont forget that Arar was deported to Syria by US AFTER the Canadian Government told them to slow down and give Arar due process. Some arrogant misinformed *** thought different. I hope Arar sues BushCos ass off. I was happy when i heard a US judge has reinstated his case. Small wonder no one wants to visit US anymore.

    • Posted By: pacificus @ 12/20/2008 4:51:39 PM

      I have to say, your opinion - however prescient you believe it to be - is misguided. In the case of the Canadian citizen you mentioned in your comment, he was extradited - without charge - from the US, not to his own country - but to Syria where it was understood that the information should be turned over to the US if and when it was gathered. This provides no grounds for US deniability. The US administration willfully and knowingly imprisoned this man in a FOREIGN country to allow enhanced interrogation techniques to take place away from the prying eyes of the American Judicial system;; techniques that wouldn't be allowed under US or International law. It is great that you believe the US should do whatever is necessary to protect itself, but you forget that in arbitrarily suspending the rights guaranteed to every person, you have insinuated that the protection of US citizens is also contingent on the willingness of other states to uphold these rights you have deemed so dispensable in the US fight against terror.

      Secondly, the argument that extreme measures must be taken when you are forced to address extreme consequences is also flawed. In a perfect world this train of thought would seem to be logical, however experience has taught us that it doesn't ring true. Take KSM's confessions. As KSM has been touted as the mastermind behind he 9/11 attacks and thought to have "operational intelligence' about Al Qaeda in general, waterboarding, stress positions, and, I am even more inhumane and unfathomable means of interrogation accomplished what?

      Well.... he has confessed to everything from being the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll to essentially every foreign terrorist event in the last 20 years. If enhanced interrogation techniques was shown to improve the discovery of new or useful information, or it was deemed to be a reliable method of extracting true intelligence then the rational calculus for the 'no holds barred' approach to interrogation would be airtight. However, history, and current experience can quite clearly show us otherwise.

    • Posted By: olderwiser @ 12/20/2008 12:40:58 PM

      Xtman, the best work is done by interrogation without torture. Not by kind hearted people, but by skilled interrogators. The benefits of torture are practically non existent. Harsh measures are mostly movie stuff, made up by Hollywood people who have exactly zero experience in most of what they portray. The answers that you get from physically abusing people are mostly worthless because anyone, including yourself, will say anything to abate the pain. Something happened when the Bush administration took off on a tangent after the tower bombings which made them give the idea to the American people that our moral and ethical standards were no longer in effect. The toughness that you wish to impart to us is little more than make believe. Kindheartedness is a quality that befits some of the most effective law enforcement people in the world and the bluffadicio that goes with torture and its aficionados is unworthy of our country's image both at home and abroad. Forget the torture. Celebrate the criminal charges that should be filed against those who approved and encouraged it. Save the Geneva Convention standards. There will be other wars. Your descendants could well be in one of those wars and be captured on the battlefield.

      • Posted By: bspencerco @ 12/20/2008 4:49:12 PM

        Since when does a Canadian citizen belong in Syria, moron?

  • Posted By: BrendanOMaidian @ 12/28/2008 1:40:15 AM

    Torture, abuse, maltreatment, call it what you will, this "administration" has been nothing but homicidal, criminal, and abusive in all of its arrogance. If the coven of thugs headed by W, is not held accountable for its crimes, we move on to yet another chapter in American history that tries to make us all forget it ever happened. Much as the blame for 9/11 has never been established officially, so will all of this torture talk step aside for the next set of horrors or terrors. This "administration" has seen the most convenient, circumstantial, and coincidental series of events to make everything go its evil ways. How does anyone trust the truth from these war profiteers who slipped into office twice by means of voting fraud and manipulation. This is the same group of traitors who predicted a "Pearl Harbor type of incident" would be necessary to get its hegemonic dreamworld underway. And guess what happened nine months into their power trip? The rest is a chapter of history that will torture all of us for generations to come. And how's this for another guess: These evil bastards will get away with it.
    America the beautiful.

  • Posted By: lori9 @ 12/27/2008 11:53:18 PM

    Oh, Jonathan: Stop whoring for the Bush dictatorship. You have abouut twenty-five excuses for them burned into your first paragraph. It reads like a Bush attorney's opening statement:
    BTW, it's not *abuse,* it's *torture.*
    Cheers,
    Lori R. Price
    Managing Editor
    Citizens For Legitimate Government
    http://www.legitgov.org/

  • Posted By: no.really? @ 12/27/2008 5:27:41 PM

    According to CCRJustice.org, ???The Center for Constitutional Rights is outraged at President Obama???s choice of the right wing Rev. Rick Warren to lead the convocation at his inauguration. This is ???change??? we can neither believe in nor support. Many of us have been looking forward to this inauguration as we have no other in the past, with great hope that the new administration will restore our Constitution and its place in a nation of laws.???

    How does the convocation relate to the Constitution?

  • Posted By: homjett @ 12/26/2008 6:24:53 PM

    Lets see, why did Pres Elect Obama keep President Bush Defense intact, after he was privy to all the info that a President sees everyday. I hope they get the Medal of Freedom for keeping this Country safe.

  • Posted By: xmontreal @ 12/26/2008 12:47:40 AM

    I'f I remember correctly Captain Henry Wirz--the Commandant of Andersonville prison during the Cvil War was hanged for war crimes. This could be a precedent for prosecution (without the hanging part)

  • Posted By: Texas Jake @ 12/23/2008 9:01:22 PM

    Just like Michael Jackson, Cheney will relocate to another country to avoid prosecution. I agree that Bush will pardon them all (including himself) of all future charges... Yes, he can legally do this

  • Posted By: neocon @ 12/23/2008 3:45:07 PM

    Hell, give them a medal.

  • Posted By: polecat1 @ 12/20/2008 1:30:03 AM

    This authors piety is nauseating! Why don't you just kumbyya with your radical muslim friends!

    • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/22/2008 11:33:31 AM

      So, anyone who believes in the rule of law is a Muslim radical?

      What?

    • Posted By: Atlas Scruggs @ 12/20/2008 10:20:00 PM

      That's right, anyone who believes in the rule of law has radical Muslim friends. That's what Hannity and the Fat Turd have turned this country into.

  • Posted By: Sgt Pa Pa @ 12/21/2008 3:58:40 PM

    Hey, what's all the crying about. What's a little torture among cowards. After all none of the "chosen one's by the Supreme Court of December 2000" will ever serve in the military and ever have to endure "enhanced interrogation" if captured. Kidnapping of citizens of the US and other countries is ok, you bettcha,; because lawyer Yoo says so. So, I guess until 1/20/09 we will have to get over it; then the fun for us true American's who have been embarrassed by this bunch yahoos will begin. Maybe Lawyer Yoo will come up with a defense strategy. Nah, that takes brains.

  • Posted By: boscobear @ 12/21/2008 12:59:23 PM

    George will pardon everyone, including himself. Nothing is too low for that man to do. The only thing more embarassing than his leadership these past eight years is the morons who voted TWICE for him.

  • Posted By: abfabinri @ 12/21/2008 9:45:14 AM

    Torture is clearly defined for the Military in thier code of conduct and it has been quite clear that water boarding is torture and we have actually prosecuted people who have used it....so it is not some gray area we are dealing with it is clearly black and white and if Cheney gave the ok he should be prosecuted.

  • Posted By: abfabinri @ 12/21/2008 9:41:28 AM

    At the very least someone has to be publicly admonished. If Cheney is guilty the Congress should pass a resolution stating so for all the world to see. He and others who broke the law should be treated as any other citizen and if jail is necessary so be it. Cheney needs to be investigated for many other things as well. For eight years we have had a mafia like bunch running the Whitehouse, breaking any rule they wished to and they need to pay for it.

  • Posted By: katana0182 @ 12/21/2008 3:04:14 AM

    If extreme measures are ever necessary, it is necessary that those who take those extreme measures know that what they do is regarded by civilized people as shameful, inhuman, barbaric; it is necessary that they accept the taint and the guilt of doing what must be done; and it is necessary that they feel great fear of punishment for taking extreme measures; they must keep such things silent, secret, and hidden. The problem with these individuals is they believe it to be a proud thing that they did--they boast of it in public--they seek to render legal the blatantly and categorically illegal. And by doing so, they impugn all of us in the actions that they took.
    If Mr. Cheney, Mr. Addington, and Mr. Yoo are to order torture, and then have the chutzpah to suggest that the law supports their actions, then the law must make itself clear that it never can support such actions, for if it does not do so, then the indelible stain of torture be upon us all. The law must try them and punish them, for, as a US court once said, "like the pirate and the slaver before him, the torturer has become hostis humani generis, the enemy of all mankind". Torture is an abomination upon the Constitution and the honor of the People of the United States.
    And Mr. Yoo, Mr. Cheney, and Mr. Addington have forced us into the place where if we are to remain silent in the face of what they have admitted, it is to give our acquiescence--nay, not just our acquiescence, but our sanction, indeed, our approval, of the crimes that they have committed.
    So, fellow Americans, whose side are you on? Do you or don't you support torture? Declare yourselves. Do you support the Constitution, do you support the rule of law, do you support our ancient civil liberties, and the concept of inalienable rights? Or do you support torture? And, if you do not support it, know that your silence is just as much a declaration of support as declaring so loudly, publicly, without shame, and with self-righteous, pretentious piety.
    So, on the one hand there will be the torturers, and those who are their apologists (they are one and the same); on the other hand there will be the Americans.
    Torture is terror, and with torture and terror, those who harbor and support them will share in their fate.
    You're either with us Americans, or you're against us.
    There is and cannot be any middle ground.
    There can only be punishment.

  • Posted By: sharkman @ 12/21/2008 2:29:29 AM

    If these crooks face any charges it should be for the patriot act (should be called the traitor of the constitution act).

  • Posted By: DeerWhisperer @ 12/20/2008 11:14:26 PM

    This is like any other crime. Anyone who even contemplates such actions needs to know bad things will happen to him if he carries these acts out.

  • Posted By: surt@uga.edu @ 12/19/2008 12:37:33 PM

    President Obama should pardon Bush and those who worked under him for the good of our nation. Just like with Nixon, this is another presidency that America needs to get behind it, and look to the future.

    • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 12/19/2008 1:20:14 PM

      Sure. Why not reaffirm that the president is above the law, right?

      • Posted By: surt@uga.edu @ 12/19/2008 1:43:58 PM

        The point is not to make the president above the law, but rather to provide closure for a contentious issue. There is no realistic hope that Bush & team can be prosecuted successfully, and any such prosecution risks driving half of the country to even further crazy extremism. We need moderate, compassionate leadership now, not revenge.

        • Posted By: lweissberg @ 12/19/2008 6:46:28 PM

          @surt@uga.edu

          I agree with Doc Howl that letting the matter drop would not lead to closure. It would be telling the world that we will do whatever we want and there isn't anything they can do about it.

          I also don't believe that "any such prosecution risks driving half of the country to even further crazy extremism". Just the opposite, in fact. I think it would be a first step in showing the world that we DO take responsibility for our actions. And even if Bush & Co. manage to pardon themselves out of jail time, making the details of their war crimes public would lead to a lot of public humiliation, and a big black mark against the Bush administration's "legacy" in the history books, which (hopefully) would make it less likely that the U.S. will repeat our mistakes.

          • Posted By: Atlas Scruggs @ 12/20/2008 10:37:50 PM

            Exactly. Chileans have finally gotten a little "closure" recently with regard to Pinochet. Letting the guilty go free is the total opposite.

        • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 12/19/2008 2:56:53 PM

          "The point is not to make the president above the law, but rather to provide closure for a contentious issue. "

          Letting the matter drop isn't "closure".

          • Posted By: brydges @ 12/19/2008 3:16:52 PM

            The point is if you are against protecting innocent Americans in exchange for those of foreigners who would like to see you me and our children dead then you are against America and everything it stands for. I see you on this blog constantly trying to give yourself some sense of moral superiority in order to make up for some inadequacy, but you are the one that comes across as the hate monger. If you hate your country, it???s people and your government so much no one would complain if you left. Maybe there???s a nice family in northern Pakistan that would take you in. I???m sure they would agree with your views. Look how well American???s are treated there, just ask Dan Pearl.

            • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 12/19/2008 4:28:08 PM

              "I see you on this blog constantly trying to give yourself some sense of moral superiority in order to make up for some inadequacy, but you are the one that comes across as the hate monger. "

              Yes, I hate cowards. You know, like you.

            • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 12/19/2008 4:27:26 PM

              "The point is if you are against protecting innocent Americans in exchange for those of foreigners who would like to see you me and our children dead then you are against America and everything it stands for. "

              No, if you are so terrified of terrorists that you'd throw away every principle America stands for, then you are too much of a coward to merit being called an "American".

              Grow a pair.

    • Posted By: YashBudini @ 12/19/2008 1:23:24 PM

      Hardly a comparison. I don't recall Nixon inventing a war and making the VP/CEO of Halliburton rich in the process.

      • Posted By: surt@uga.edu @ 12/19/2008 1:42:17 PM

        My comparison was only that prosecuting Bush et al will get half of this country up in arms, and create turmoil at a time when it would be far more valuable to unite behind new leadership and move forward.

        • Posted By: weathered @ 12/20/2008 3:24:04 PM

          Up in arms? If that happened, I might actually have faith in government. I'd maybe have hope for the future!

          THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY.

        • Posted By: YashBudini @ 12/19/2008 3:33:15 PM

          "My comparison was only that prosecuting Bush et al will get half of this country up in arms"

          I think a lot more people would applaud than that, and it would restore faith in the integrity of the country as a whole.

        • Posted By: Doc Howl @ 12/19/2008 2:56:17 PM

          Actually, it might get a little less than a quarter of the country upset.

      • Posted By: RO in Reno @ 12/19/2008 9:02:21 PM

        There is a very strong comparison, the "no bid contractor in Vietnam was Brown and Root the very same; now Kellog Brown and Root in Iraq, a part of Haliburton, Lyndon Johnson had no stock in Brown and Root.... it was in his wifes name, not to mention these folks are all from Texas, Nixion just inherited it.

  • Posted By: notassmart @ 12/19/2008 12:57:09 PM

    and the terrorist who flat out killed 3000 us citizens are going to held to the same rules and start playing fair.??? Promise me that and THEN i'll give a crap about the prisoners.

    • Posted By: Atlas Scruggs @ 12/20/2008 10:35:33 PM

      There are lots of people who would kill lots of people if nobody lifted a finger to stop them. The second worst terrorist attack in the U.S. was the OKC bombing. Did we then run around picking up innocent Americans and torturing them to death?

    • Posted By: nikolai @ 12/19/2008 4:11:43 PM

      notassmart ; "and the terrorist who flat out killed 3000 us citizens are going to held to the same rules and start playing fair.??? Promise me that and THEN i'll give a crap about the prisoners."

      Ok, but to do that, the 9/11 COmmission Report will have to gone back over with a fine tooth comb, as there are many major inconsistencies, to say the least. Of course, Chendy could be waterboarded for the truth and that would speed things up considerably. Good plan, huh?

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