The Power Of Prayer

How does anyone make sense of the world today? There are no fixed points to make. Everything shifts around. When I was young the best thing in the world was touted as the "open" marriage which would actually be remaining a state of nonmarriage on the part of everyone. There would just be sex........all the time in every interaction. Now we are going to have gay marriage, heterosexual marriage, prostitutional marriage, child marriage, just plain weird marriage (probably mating with your pet Doberman Pincher). What is wrong with this country? Have we lost all our marbles??????? A man who looks like a man with a bad beard is going to say a prayer at a celebration we have every time we elect a new president and suddenly he is put under a microscope because he has the "balls" to say outloud what he believes in a country noted for freedom of speech as one of it's civil rights and he is criticized because he is violating some other persons "civil" rights??????? What a country. I could give the invocation, if only the President Elect would ask me. I don't have beard but I know I could pray for this country. By the way, do all the liberals continue to think that getting rid of the electoral college is an important idea now that that college elected a Democrat for the presidency. I am a woman and I am white and my name could easily be the reverend Mrs. Wright for I am from a state where becoming a minister and/or a chaplain is about as easy as becoming a prostitute which is the state from which Rick Warren comes from and the state from which the electorate spend millions of dollars to say on the ballot for the second time that same sex marriage is not what the people want. And due to the former governor Moombeam, it looks like the electorate will have to put the stupid idea on the ballot for a third time which will once again be defeated (we can hope) and maybe the charm which will put an end to all this crass stupidity (and waste of money) on the part of the government and the people.

I suggest that marriage maybe historically intertwined with religion. I also suggest that the coupling of two individuals (both gay or straight) in a loving relationship is conducive to the pursuit of happiness and provides community benefits, both economic and social. As such, I think we should create a legal, social construct similar to marriage but by another name that is free from the underpinnings, limitations or baggage of religion. One that affords the exact same rights and benefits as marriage. I say we call it pairrage. Thoughts?

Why does Chris Crain keep bringing up marriage? Exactly like Leah keeps saying: This isn't about marriage. This isn't about policy. It's about respect.

"You and I would agree, Leah, that he is flat wrong on the history of marriage. NEWSWEEK's wonderful cover story on gay marriage pointed out that marriage included polygamy for a lot more of those 5,000 years than it excluded it. "

The point that Warren is trying to make is that marriage has been between a man and a woman since recorded history, and polygamy is still marriage between the opposite sex even if it includes multiple wives (and concubines as well). That is the point that Chris and Leah miss in their respective diatribes. Polygamy typically excludes homosexual unions.

???The whole point behind the parade of horribles in a slippery slope argument is that "y" and "z" (polygamy and incest) are not the same, but much worse, than "x" (gay marriage and civil unions)." Since when is polygamy worse than gay marriage or homosexual sex? That is definitely the opinion of a gay individual who views heterosexual and homosexual relationships as morally comparable. Although I would agree that pedophilia or incest is worse because a victim is involved, the bottom line is that God abhors ALL sin, no matter what brand of sexual deviance or immorality. Obviously, with that said, there is no sin which is better or worse in God's eyes. Sin separates us from God, no matter the origin.

"We are publicly pillorying him as a 'homophobe.'" What exactly is a "homophobe"? I do not support gay relationships in any way, shape, or manner. Yet I am not "afraid" of gay people. Just because people do not support the gay agenda does not automatically mean that they fear homosexuals. It is one of the most overused terms along with hate and bigot!

"Whether you see it as a stretch or not, the person charged with invoking God's presence at the beginning of the ceremony is serving as the spiritual representative of our nation as a whole. That's just a fact." I totally agree; that's why I'm happy that Barry didn't choose Reverend Wright or some liberal Episcopal pastor to do the inauguration instead.

"You and I would agree, Leah, that he is flat wrong on the history of marriage. NEWSWEEK's wonderful cover story on gay marriage pointed out that marriage included polygamy for a lot more of those 5,000 years than it excluded it. "

The point that Warren is trying to make is that marriage has been between a man and a woman since recorded history, and polygamy is still marriage between the opposite sex even if it includes mutliple wives (and concubines as well). That is the point that Chris and Leah miss in their respecitve diatribes. Polygamy typically exludes homosexual unions.

" The whole point behind the parade of horribles in a slippery slope argument is that "y" and "z" (polygamy and incest) are not the same, but much worse, than "x" (gay marriage and civil unions)." Since when is polygamy worse than gay marriage or homosexual sex? That is definitely the opinion of a gay individual who views heterosexual and homosexual relationships as morally comparable. Although I would agree that pedophilia or incest is worse because a victim is involved, the bottom line is that God abhors ALL sin, no matter what brand of sexual deviance or immorality. Obviously, with that said, there is no sin which is better or worse in God's eyes. Sin seperates us from God, no matter the origin.

"we are publicly pillorying him as a 'homophobe.'" What exactly is a "homophobe"? I do not support gay relationships in any way, shape, or manner. Yet I am not "afraid" of gay people. Just because people do not support the gay agenda does not automatically mean that they fear homosexuals. It is one of the most overused terms along with hate and bigot!

"Whether you see it as a stretch or not, the person charged with invoking God's presence at the beginning of the ceremony is serving as the spiritual representative of our nation as a whole. That's just a fact." I totally agree; that's why I'm happy that Barry didn't choose Reverend Wright or some liberal Episcopal pastor to do the inaugeration instead.

Mocha33, I understand what you are saying, but there is difference between respecting people's right to belief and respecting their particular beliefs. I have no problem with anyone believing anything as long as it causes no harm. I can respect their right to believe without respecting their beliefs. In Islam, infidels (those who do not believe in god) and apostates (those who have forsaken Islam) should be killed. Should we "respect" these beliefs?

Religions are fundamentally mutually exclusive and insular. They have no place in government.

Not many Gay and Lesbian people are obsessed with Rick Warren. He's one minister among thousands - maybe hundreds of thousands - who are accused of thinking Gay and Lesbians don't exist. Yet, how can he believe that civil unions are reasonable for the LGBT community if such people don't exist? Leah's argument is fallacious on that ground alone. I HEARD Rick Warren's statement about the "slippery slope" that Chris mentions; but Leah is so wrapped up in her own ideology that she can't even detect the possibility that she's definitely and outrageously wrong.

I'm just sick and tired of all these people within our gay community telling me that i have put up with the likes of Warren just because it serves our politicians. Wake up gay people, we and only we have the power of change in our hands. Nobody will ever give us any rights but instead will take them from unless we unite and fight. What has the Log Cabin Republicans have done for our community with thei "work from the inside" politics. What has the Democrats done lately but promises and once they're elected throw us under the bus and to lions. This is not Uniifying our country, thats what Bush called it when he used our rights to get people to vote for him. this is an insult to our core, to our moral fiber, to our own existense. It's just simply and Insult to gay people and no matter what we say they just simply don't care, Remeber the Reagan years when our people were dying of Aids and they ignored us for 12 years. When Clinton gave us up to gain grounds with the Republicans. and Bush try to take our rights in every way he could.

Thanks to those that are stading with us who defend us like Mayor Gavin from San Francisco.

I'm just sick and tired of all these people within our gay community telling me that i have put up with the likes of Warren just because it serves our politicians. Wake up gay people, we and only we have the power of change in our hands. Nobody will ever give us any rights but instead will take them from unless we unite and fight. What has the Log Cabin Republicans have done for our community with thei "work from the inside" politics. What has the Democrats done lately but promises and once they're elected throw us under the bus and to lions. This is not Uniifying our country, thats what Bush called it when he used our rights to get people to vote for him. this is an insult to our core, to our moral fiber, to our own existense. It's just simply and Insult to gay people and no matter what we say they just simply don't care, Remeber the Reagan years when our people were dying of Aids and they ignored us for 12 years. When Clinton gave us up to gain grounds with the Republicans. and Bush try to take our rights in every way he could.

Thanks to those that are stading with us who defend us like Mayor Gavin from San Francisco.

Mocha33

that is the point beleif in slavery ...belief that you are going to hell for masturbation... beleif that another human life is less value than your own

or fraternization between races is unnatural and an offense to God as pedophilia and bestiality

all things that in the last centurywere taught...in the last few decades were taught

do you think Obama would be okay with someone saying that about interracial marriage or about slavery...

and then give him the honor of standing next to him...

and if he didn't give the person who thought wives should be subserviant to their husbands...would that be him being intolerant...because the preachers beliefs say that women should vbe allowed to be beaten by their husbands or that people should be alllowed to own other humnans as slaves...because he says the Bible tells him that

is that intolerance

no

God gave you all a brain and Christ hopes you use it.