Some news for you - World-Wide Caliphate on the show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_sg
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2107
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZiw3qVdFzw
INTERNATIONAL
A Return to Deterrence
Can Israel restore its aura of invincibility?
Dec 28, 2008
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Posted By: GirlAroundTheCorner @ 02/25/2009 3:25:07 PM
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Posted By: GirlAroundTheCorner @ 02/25/2009 3:20:12 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZiw3qVdFzw
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Posted By: GirlAroundTheCorner @ 02/25/2009 3:18:53 PM
Your future in the Caliphate to come - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_sg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGA8i6scYY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58
Amnesty International estimates that over 130 million women worldwide have been affected
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting
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Posted By: vanabavi @ 01/05/2009 9:16:11 AM
I believe that the only solution is change in policies of US. The whole world is suffering economic and other consequences of US policies. We should change our basic policy of supporting wars all over the world. We can reestablish our strategy and become the good superpower of the world again with support of nations all over this world.
Please read the interesting discussion of Time with Avrum Burg, the scion of one of Israel's founding families (His father was the deputy speaker of the first Knesset, and Burg himself later became speaker of the legislature, and a member of Israel's cabinet) :
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1869325,00.html
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Posted By: moto89 @ 01/03/2009 3:21:53 PM
To all the ignorant people, a simple formula will outline the current problem in the Middle East:
1) Zionists (extremist Jews) wanted a homeland for the Jewish people, there???s no problem with that BUT: to have a homeland for the Jewish people on land STOLEN from the Palestinians is the sole reason that makes Zionists and Israel illegitimate and aggressors.
3) after the Arabs conceded to the defeat by Israel, Israel was not contempt with what they got ----> so they kicked Palestinians out of their homes in Gaza and west bank, demolished them and built nice new gates communities with beautiful villas, and replaced the people with extreme Zionist settlers.
3) The Palestinians didn???t no what to do, they were obviously very angry, having their homes raided and stolen by extremists. They couldn???t negotiate with thugs and robbers; --> what cud they negotiate on, it were their homes, why should they compromise. Would you?
4) The Palestinians can???t go to the authorities because the Israeli authorities sanctioned the act of raiding and robbing Palestinians of their homes and land.
5) The PLO or Yasser Arafat???s organisation (currently under the leadership of Mahmud abbas) negotiated and compromised the Palestinians land. These negotiations didn???t work as the terrorist entity controlled by Zionists never gave back any land and instead expanded illegal settlements in west bank.
6) The US preached democracy and it was heard, and after Hamas (the Resistance movement) won, the world did not recognise it.
7) Now instead of the world trying to solve the core problem of occupation and illegal settlements in west bank. They are now trying to eliminate the group that truly seeks to liberate Palestinian from Israeli aggression.
NOW I ASK YOU PEOPLE WHAT ARE YOU COMPLAINING FOR?
DIDNT YOU WANT DEMOCRACY, SO ACCEPT HAMAS'S LEGITMACY.
DONT YOU AND THE REST OF WORLD CALL ON HAMAS TO RECOGNISE ISRAELS RIGHT TO EXIST (on stolen Palestinians land), --> WHY DONT YOU ASK ISRAEL TO ACCEPT THE RIGHT OF PALETSINE TO EXIST WIHTOUT THE ILLEGAL ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS CONTAINING 400,000+ EXTREMISTS ZIONIST JEWS.
WHY ARE U ASKING HAMAS TO STOP FIRING ROCKETS, WHEN THE CORE PROBLEM IS OCCUPATION, SO ASK ISREAL TO STOP AND WITHDRAW FROM SETTLEMNETS
FEW ACTIONS THAT NEED TO TAKE PLACE:
1) ISRAEL STOPS AGGRESSION, HAMAS STOP ROCKET FIRE AND AGREE TO LONG TERM TRUCE WHEREBY ISRAEL LIFTS THE BLOCKADE AND ACCEPT THE STATE OF PALESTINE TO EXIST
2) HAMAS AND FATAH UNITE AS ONE VOICE
3) ISRAEL WITHDRAW ALL ILLEGAL SETTLERS FROM THE ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS FROM WESTBANK TO THE PRE-1967 BORDER
4) WORLD SUPPORTS THE NEW STATE OF PALESTINE AND ACCEPT HAMAS AS A LEGITAMATE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE-
Posted By: joe_mama @ 01/03/2009 9:01:59 PM
"NOW I ASK YOU PEOPLE WHAT ARE YOU COMPLAINING FOR?"
You're the one who's complaining....complaining that your democratically elected government which openly stated it's intention to go to war with Israel now finds itself at war with Israel.
"DIDNT YOU WANT DEMOCRACY, SO ACCEPT HAMAS'S LEGITMACY."
We do accept Hamas' legitimacy.....the Palestinian people democratically elected a government dedicated to war with Israel and guess what they got? War with Israel.
Did they think Hamas was kidding with all that "fight to the death" and "nation of martyrs" talk?
Or maybe they expected somebody else to make the sacrifice for them?
You made your bed now sleep in it. Commit yourself to peace and you have my total support.
Love,
JM
PS--You forgot to mention that Arafat's baby, Fatah, was so corrupt that their own people turned against them and elected Hamas (source: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/01/27/ap/world/mainD8FDA2800.shtml). How much of the $7 billion in aid given to Fatah since 1990 went to improve the lives of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank (source: http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/60396.pdf)? I think we both know the answer to that one.
Love,
JM
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Posted By: Getitout @ 01/03/2009 4:32:29 PM
The end game is for Hamas to embrace the Israeli, to go along with them, to accept to live in peace. And let someone else fight the Israelis, Iran, Syria, or any other country that object Israel right to exist. Hamas is falling right in Israel hand, and Israel will welcome fighting Hamas than any other country in the area. If Hamas accept to live in peace with Israel, it will accomplish two major issues. Hamas will stay out of " Israel has the right to exist". And the end game Israel will look elsewhere to fight her "Its right to exist " . Maybe Iran. And the Palestinians will live in peace. Israel cannot survive in the area unless its in a conflict. Palestinians need to stay out of it. They will never have a State to call their own, unless there the only one in the area. The question is about Israel right to exist not a Palestinian state.
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 01/01/2009 11:01:19 PM
FROM THE ARTICLE:
(Israel's latest campaign may restore some measure of its long-lost aura of invincibility. Yet in the long run, it will come at a price.)
reply: Nobody EVER had any doubt that the Israeli military machine could easily smash the virtually unarmed captive population of Gaza, this action by Israel proves nothing beyond her well known willingness to kill men women and children on a massive scale.-
Posted By: joe_mama @ 01/02/2009 9:14:09 AM
"reply: Nobody EVER had any doubt that the Israeli military machine could easily smash the virtually unarmed captive population of Gaza, this action by Israel proves nothing beyond her well known willingness to kill men women and children on a massive scale."
Once again, your post reveals the extent of your ignorance. If Israel could "easily smash" Gaza and if Israel only wanted to "kill men women and children on a massive scale" then what are they waiting for? If they are trulty the embodiment of evil, as you suggest, then why wouldn't they just carpet bomb the entire area? Or better yet, nuke it? Wouldn't that be more consistent with your view of their motivations?
I'll tell you why they won't:
1) The US --err "Great Satan" -- wouldn't stand for it. That's right, the country that everybody claims wants to destroy Islam was actually furious that Israel launched the attack in 1967. There had been numerous attempts by the Johnson Administration to find a diplomatic solution (in fact, the Egyptian government was preparing to send representatives to the U.S. to negotiate when Israel attacked). The Secretary of Defense at the time, Robert McNamara, AND the Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, told Israel there was no evidence an Arab attack was iminient and that Israel would "stand alone" if they acted preemptively. The CIA knew Israel couldn't fight for more than a week, so the government threatened to cut off their military aid unless they agreed to a cease fire.(source: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/johnsonlb/xix/28054.htm).
2) Israel lacks the manpower and the firepower (save their nukes) to achieve a strategic victory ("strategic", not "tactical" ... there's a big difference). They had to call up 10,000 reservists just for this skirmish...there's no way they could produce 100,000+/- troops they would need to take over and, more importantly, hold Gaza. It ain't gonna happen. Period.
3) Israel's economy cannot support an extended deployment. I don't mean 6 months or a year, I'm talking 5-10 years, which as we have seen in both Afghanistan and Iraq is the minimum amount of time it would take to install a puppet regime. This is why they pulled out of Lebanon in the first place. They didn't have a change of heart, they ran out of money.
The same can be said about Hamas. They simply lack the manpower, the firepower and the finances to achieve any kind of lasting victory against Israel. In fact, they wouldn't even exist without the support of Syria, Lebanon and Iran.
Which places us right back to square one:
Both sides are equally guilty. Both sides wanted this war. Now both sides have to live (and die) with their decisions. Stop the violence and you will BOTH have my unwavering support.
Love,
JM-
Posted By: bighappy @ 01/02/2009 7:20:48 PM
Yes, Israel can easily smash any resistance in Gaza, if it decides to fight a conventional war. No necessity in carpet-bombing, even it is also usual war tactics ??? just destroy every resisting building from the safe distance and bury everyone there in the rubbles.
1. You are right, USA were initially furious in 1967, but very soon they had to agree that Israel was right. By the way, in 1967 Israel did not have much support from USA (I mean government, not private citizens) and still was able to defeat huge Arab armies, well prepared for invasion (stop this nonsense about peaceful Egypt, their actions spoke better than words).
2. Israel does not need reservists to destroy even both Hamas and Hisbollah simultaneously in conventional war. Another thing if current Israel excessively humanitarian leaders want to continue with the same sick tactics (as in Lebanon) to surgically remove only dogs and spare their puppies. Israeli public is already against this humanitarian approach to the animals (how else can we define people who dance in the streets when bombs and rockets kill ???unfaithful??? civilians and gladly support terrorist factions just because they kill Israeli civilians), and after Israel elections the tactic will change.
3. See the above, they don???t need to deploy reservists for fighting terrorists,
???Both sides are equally guilty. Both sides wanted this war??? ??? I agree, Israeli doves wanted it for political reasons, to survive the elections, Hamas wanted it because ??? I don???t know, probably because they are idiots, why not to behave couple more months, create illusion for Israely voters that Hamas can be a ???partner????-
Posted By: joe_mama @ 01/03/2009 2:05:54 AM
Destroying Hamas is one thing
Holding Gaza - which is the only way to prevent Hamas from returning - is entirely different.
Just look at Iraq and Afghanistan....we easily defeated the governments, but holding and securing the territories has proven difficult at best.
So, yes, Israel could smash Gaza, but they could not secure it, and would be looking at the exact same problem in 5-10 years.
Love,
JM-
Posted By: bighappy @ 01/03/2009 2:06:21 PM
They kept much more than Gaza for several years. They releaed it only in good will and under USA pressure.
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Posted By: joe_mama @ 01/03/2009 3:40:57 PM
If you're referring to Southern Lebanon, Israel pulled out because they ran out of money.
U.S. pressure was only a secondary factor. Goodwill had absolutely nothing to do with it.
Israel's economic growth in the 90s peaked in 1995 at about 12%. This had more to do with the global economy than with the occupation, but they grew nonetheless.
After 1995, however, their economy tanked, dropping to about 2% growth by 2000, just before the pullout. They experienced a brief uptick as people thought the pullout would lead to stability, but, since it wasn't based on anything other than lack of funds, it didn't last. The Israeli economy tanked, hitting rock bottom in 2001 - 2002 , contracting by nearly 2% (thanks, in no small part to the second intifada).
To adjust, Israel cut nearly 65 billion shekels (about 1/3 of Israel's non-defense spending in 2005) from it's civilian spending budget and sought almost 9b dollars in loan guarantees from the U.S.
Israel's credit rating remains low (A in 2008 according to FItch), which means higher interest on any money it borrows--whether it's for guns or butter, it's just costs more.
Bottom line is there is no goodwill here, just a bunch of crazy fools on each side of the fence. When they pull their heads out of their collective you-know-whats we'll welcome them both with open arms.
Love,
JM
source (a novel concept)
http://www.israelsoccupation.info/files/costofoccupation2008fullenglish(1).pdf
This is a report written by an Israeli think tank analyzing the economic and social costs of the conflict. Read it and you understand why Israel has been so willing to deal over the last 10 years.
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Posted By: abelberr @ 01/03/2009 2:00:54 PM
So this is all about the coming elections in Israel? Wrong! The real winners will be Hamas and Iran and the loosers will be Israel, Bush (may more shoes rain on him!), Hosni Mubabrak of Egypt, King Hussain of Jordan, and all the rotten regimes in the Arab world. My prediction: more Arabs and Muslims will become Shiites and join organisations like Hezbollah or start similar ones. Iran and Hezbollah and the current Israeli aggression against Gaza have demonstrated that Sunnis and the rotten governments in the Arab world are worthless.
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Posted By: More Sunshine Please! @ 01/03/2009 11:46:56 AM
The World is not out to destroy and wipe Israel and the Jewish community off the map, that IS NOT the intent of Israel???s neighbors or the Arab community or the rest of World. The Jews need to stop twisting everything around and come clean and admit that what they are doing, which is stealing land that does not belong to them and murdering in the name of GOD to justify their actions, is WRONG. The Bible tells of the history b/n the Jews (from Judah) and the Israelites (from Jacob aka ???Israel???), and how Jacob???s 12 Tribes (sons) were split up across the Middle East. The city of Babylon sounds a lot like the State of Israel today in how the Jewish community continues to prosper in riches and keeps conquering land who they say GOD tells them is theirs. Israel has become a State of GREED. I believe their history is repeating itself again, they are still missing God???s message. The Arabs have as much right to their religion as does any other religions in the World. Israel prides themselves on destroying others holy temples, and this will backfire on them. God did not die and make Israel the judge & jury. Be very careful Israel and where you tread, God is watching. I support Palestine and want PEACE in the Middle East. I support PEACE. Enough already. It???s HIGH TIME the United States of America STOPS supporting Israel until their country can ???promise??? and secure a PEACE agreement w/their neighbors and evacuate FOREVER from Palestine???s country. NO MORE $3 BILLION A YEAR TO FUND ISRAEL. Like the United States govt. told General Motors at their hearing over the BAILOUT - ???put up your own money??? to save yourselves first, then we???ll talk. BUT, if Israel starts a full-out war and sends TANKS, MISSLES AND GROUND WARFARE into Palestine all in the name GOD - wow, a VERY sad day it will be for the Jewish community all b/c of their GREED. May God be with the Palestinian people, and help Israel see the error of their ways b/c they know not what they do.
Happy New Year in 2009 everyone!! May it be a good one! And as John Lennon sang:
Imagine there???s no Heaven
It???s easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there???s no countries
It isn???t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I???m a dreamer
But I???m not the only one
I hope someday you???ll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You may say that I???m a dreamer
But I???m not the only one
I hope someday you???ll join us
And the world will live as one
??????this is what I believe too??????.. I believe PEACE can be achieved, it???s whether or not you want to be the MIRACLE AND TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.
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Posted By: More Sunshine Please! @ 01/03/2009 11:34:13 AM
~ By the way, this is no means in any shape or form, to eliminate Israel - it's mearly an intervention to STOP Israel from terrorizing others for their own desires. The Arab community is not out to destroy Israel, but to keep the peace in the Middle East and help everyone live in harmony. Wars in the Middle East have been going on for thousands of years - it's a means to an end and I believe the Arab community can unite everyone IF Israel will comply. Israel's nation are not the only Jews in the World - Jews live all over the World and even next door to Israel. Israel wages war against their own kind at all costs. I only hope that the United States of America (our new President Elect Obama) does not support Israel's war and murdering of innocent civilians. It's time the United States puts their money where there mouth is and stops funding terrorists - President Bush said it himself that we do not support terrorism, well, Israel is terrorizing Palestine and has for quite some time. I pray that President Elect Obama puts an end to this insanity Israel has bestowed upon its neighbors.
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Posted By: More Sunshine Please! @ 01/03/2009 11:33:52 AM
Someone mentioned President Jimmy Carter - he even tried to help Palestine and came to their defense years ago when Israel was engaging in warfare against Palestine. The Jews are RICH and the Palestinian people are not. Yet, this is not enough for Israel - they want to keep taking and taking and taking.... soon they will reap what they sow.
Enough already. Enough. Have they not learned from history?? Have they never read the bible passage in the New Testament (well probably not since they do not believe that Jesus Christ walked the Earth thousands of years ago - but it says this: 'DO NOT STORE UP FOR YOURSELVES TREASURES ON EARTH...BUT STORE UP FOR YOURSELVES TREASURES IN HEAVEN. MATTHEW 6: 19-21" The Jewish community all over the World must remember this verse, b/c God does not care where they live or what they have material wise. If Israel keeps acting the way they have been, Palestine and the rest of the World will unite AGAINST Israel and Israel will have no one but themselves to blame. I'm an American and am ashamed as to how our government keeps repeating history too, they have learned nothing, and if they keep waging wars on countries they have no one to blame but themselves too.
John Lennon was a great song writer and singer - remember The Beatles?? Remember his song - "Give Peace A Chance".... and his Christmas song "Happy Xmas (War Is Over)"...... I hope protesters ALL OVER THE WORLD will join-in against Israel's GREED and help them come to a peace agreement. Otherwise, Israel will suffer by their own doings.
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Posted By: More Sunshine Please! @ 01/03/2009 11:33:20 AM
Israel is destroying themselves. Israel has launched WAR on Palestine, BIG MISTAKE. Israel has brought this on themselves, they keep building on Palestine???s land and now they want to take control over the Gaza strip. They want more and more and more..... it's never enough for them, the greedier they get, the more killing and blood bathes will follow. Israel's goal is to raise enough money to conquer and take all the land they can so ALL the Jews can come and live and when that day happens, they believe this will bring Judgment Day and God to them, and take them to Heaven. Well, Israel is in for a rude awakening, God does not condone 'killing" others. He says to 'love thy neighbor'. Since 1948 when the United Nations GAVE that piece of land to the Jews b/c of Genocide/Holocaust (mostly b/c Britain who is to blame for the whole mess b/n the Arab community & Israel ??? read the history of Britain & the making of WWI), Israel believes they deserve to have whatever they want. The USA gives them $3 billion a year - yeah. How it came about that the USA must always clean-up Britain???s messes and finance their mistakes is beyond me. Palestine is just trying to protect their country, now that Arafat (spelling??) is dead and gone (and a VERY intelligent and GOOD man/leader), Palestine probably feels that their last straw was the Hamas - can you blame them? NO, I cannot. Let's say if Canada started building and taking our Northern states from the USA (Washington, Idaho, Montana, ND, Minnesota, WI, MI, New York, Maine...etc.) and ignored the USA's warnings and kept bullying the USA - I'd say the USA would not just sit back and take it. War. Palestine is not at fault here - and the Gaza strip does not belong to ANYONE. Israel must be made to UNDERSTAND this and SHARE it with EVERYONE. The piece of 'ocean front property' is not for sale or for stealing. But, the USA supports Israel and whatever Israel wants, seems like they get. The USA's interests are to keep military bases in Israel to keep controlling the OIL interests they have in the Middle East - it doesn't take a genius to figure that out. SO, whoever ends up owning the Gaza strip, has prime real estate to ship out oil. In the meantime, hundreds of innocent civilians (children included) are being murdered by the Israel military. That's called GENOCIDE. I cannot believe a nation of people that were rescued from persecution (Holocaust) would do the same to their neighbors just to obtain more land b/c they believe they are the 'Chosen Ones" by God and that allows them to do whatever they want. Newsflash - God loves everyone who believes in him and who believes in Jesus Christ his only Son who died for our sins so we can be saved and live eternally w/Him. Israel encouraging WAR makes them guilty, and God says "do not Kill", that IS one of His commandments.
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Posted By: dankusDLK @ 12/28/2008 6:10:25 PM
Look at all the anti-semetic responses this is getting! Palestine shoots rockets at Israel on a daily basis. Israel is a military country located int the heart of a world that hates them. The very existence of Jews depends on Israel continued existance. People shouldn't be so surprised that occasionally they respond to constant threats to their security with a violent hand of their own. And Israel isn't draggin the U.S. down with it as some have claimed. The U.S. has it's own crimes that it needs to Atone for: Iraq.
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Posted By: steinberggg @ 01/03/2009 10:08:06 AM
oh yes.. poor victim jews... are you kidding? look at numbers.. of deaths... before you speak with emotion-- speak with reason and logic--- facts are numbers--- not history, not politics.. NUMBERS-- and then we can talk about who the terrorist are...
hmmmm i wonder why the arab world dislikes america and israel? how much distruction have we caused. maybe you should also read about oppression.. not like an article-- but a book--- that might give you some insight-- painful--
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 12/28/2008 6:55:28 PM
AS predictably as the rising sun, the "anti-semetic" label comes out to quash ANY critism of the Israeli state.. It IS safe to say that many Arabs do hate us, but that is largely due to our blind support of Israel's illegal disspossion and surpression of the Palestinian people.
Some say that the jewish people cannot exist without the state of Israel and that the Jewish religion and the Jewish state are one in the same and that god has ordained their "right to exist." God or no god, one thing for sure is that the state of Israel is an artificial, largely European state insinuated by force of arms into an islamic landscape predictably hostile to such actions. Declaring her widespread use of indiscrimate violence to be a justifiable form of self defence rings hollow.
The fact is Israel cannot exist without massive support from the U.S. taxpayer. So my question is WHY are the American people obliged to support the establishment of a state based on religios myth?
The fact is just as many Jews live in America as live in what was generally known as Palestine. their existence or religious beliefs are not at risk here, nor are they threatened in any of the western democracies. They are perfectly welcome to take their chances and thrieve here like everyone else.
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 01/03/2009 7:00:31 AM
It is likely that Israel could temporarely defeat the standing army of any of it's neighbors, but it doesn't have the manpower or economic resources to occupy and pacify their populations anymore than they can manage to pacify the population living within what they now call greater Israel.
Israel has come to believe its own prooganda that the Palestinians have no legitimate grievances are being manipulated by outside agitators. It goes like this:
If we can only get rid of Hamas, things would be better in Gaza. If we can only get rid of hezzbolah in lebanon things would better, but we have to topple the governments of Syria and Iran to do that and then everything would be great.
Israel's supporters seem to have this idea that they can get the U.S. to reshape global reality in such a way that the Muslim world will somehow cease to exist as we know it and only be populated by complient servile survivors who have learned their proper place in the new world order. So they sell this idea that like Iraq Iran and Syria are threats to America and that war with Iran and Syria is ineveitable and that we should do it sooner rather than later. Nothing short of a nuclear hollecaust willl do the trick of course, but that's okay too.-
Posted By: joe_mama @ 01/03/2009 8:55:38 AM
Freecitizen,
Disregard everything I said.
You are absolutely right!
How could I have been sooooo silly????
Having proved us wrong you can leave now.
Love,
JM
PS--I can't believe wasted my time with this kook...
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 01/03/2009 6:35:47 AM
"JM: evidence? sources? or just talking out your butt?"
Not that facts mean anything to you but here is a source dated weeks before the 2007 battle for control of GAZA:
May 25th 2007, (two weeks before the so-called Hamas coup)
Christian Science Monitor
???Cairo and Tel Aviv - Senior US officials in Washington on Wednesday promised ongoing military support for secular Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas amid his power struggle with Islamist Hamas as part of an $84 million aid package largely aimed at improving the fighting ability of an elite corps of loyalists from his Fatah Party.
Israel, too, is making overtures to Mr. Abbas, reported the Israeli newspaper Haaretz on Wednesday, allowing light arms to flow to members of his Presidential Guard and saying that it would allow some of the US training of his forces to take place in the West Bank???..
??????Last week, when that fighting veered towards open warfare between the Palestinian factions, Israel allowed about 500 Fatah loyalists to cross back over the Rafah crossing into Gaza from Egypt, where they were receiving US training, an unusual move for Israel, which seeks to strictly limit the movement of fighting-age men through the Gaza border with Egypt.-
Posted By: joe_mama @ 01/03/2009 8:48:51 AM
Why don't we talk about the "facts" that you conveniently left out:
1) "The US insists that all of its aid to the Presidential Guard is "nonlethal," consisting of training, uniforms, and supplies, as well as paying for better infrastructure at Gaza's borders.
Regional analysts and Palestinian officials say the rifles being provided to the guards are being provided by other Arab states with close ties to the US."
(source: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0525/p07s02-wome.htm)
This is YOUR article, btw....not mine
Odd....If the U.S. and Israel were acting unilaterally, wouldn't there be more resistance from the "other Arab states" in the region?
Or perhaps they, too, recognize what most intelligent people already know - Hamas, Hezbollah and all these other wannabes are part of the problem, not the solution
2) "Dayton said that by chance, as the freshly trained men crossed into Gaza, that crossing was attacked by Hamas. "Training does pay off and the Hamas attack was repulsed and the Rafah crossing is under the control of the Palestinian Presidential Guard today," he said. "
(same source)
Got their butts kicked? Doesn't sound like it to me.
Unless, of course, you're referring to the actual coup, itself, which involved a heck of a lot more than 500 men (which, in case you didn't know, is about a battalion...not enough to make a difference in the coup).
You can defend Hamas and the people who put them into power all you want, but if you're going to start cherry-picking history, I will be all too happy to indulge you.
Love,
JM
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Posted By: jaferap @ 01/03/2009 5:08:46 AM
in the long run Israel stands to lose.the demography and histrory are against the Israeli ambition of expansion and colonisation.
the long term security of any nation lies in the goodwill of the nations around and Israel is no exception.Sufferings and disposession of 2000 years could not subdue jewish people ,the same holds true to the palestinians also
jafer AP
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Posted By: San Ying @ 12/29/2008 6:28:43 PM
Elementary. Return Palestinian lands in 1967 to the Palestinians. And there will be Peace. If Israeli settlers won't leave, pay them to leave. Elementary.
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Posted By: bighappy @ 12/29/2008 7:08:25 PM
Barak proposed (as it is proven to be foolishly) something like this to your Arafat - he started "intifada". By the way, Gaza newer was Palestinian, it was part of Egypt, but Egypt does not want Gaza back, they want to separate themselves from you by the much highre fence than Israel built.
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Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/30/2008 12:48:37 PM
"Barak proposed (as it is proven to be foolishly) something like this to your Arafat "
When did he do that?-
Posted By: bighappy @ 12/30/2008 4:04:26 PM
On his summit with Arafat in USA. This fool wa rady to give Arafat even East Jerusalime and some Israel territory for existing West Bank settlements.
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Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/30/2008 4:24:57 PM
When was that? What year?
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Posted By: bighappy @ 12/30/2008 4:41:34 PM
1999 in Washington or Camp David, as I remember.
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Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/31/2008 11:25:52 AM
That's odd. Barack Obama was not in federal office at that time.
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Posted By: joe_mama @ 01/03/2009 2:13:18 AM
EHUD Barak....not BARACK Obama
geez you people are idiots.
Love,
JM -
Posted By: bighappy @ 12/31/2008 2:59:00 PM
Yes, they both are so much look alike.
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Posted By: Vigilance @ 12/30/2008 10:53:35 AM
Israel's not going anywhere unless it eats itself out by the same kind of consumerist greed that's busy metastasizing through America's economy right now. One thing about possessing a lot of nuclear weapons: it does tend to make a country somewhat of an immovable object within the region, and Israel has several hundred of them obtained through secret nuclear programs.
I personally wish someone would pass a resolution preventing the U.S. from any military alliances with undeclared nuclear powers. It's like, the most sinister thing ever.
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Posted By: TomCarney @ 12/29/2008 7:53:57 PM
Democratic Election, Hamas won, Oh now we do not like democratic elections, Hamas out.
This is a modern day concentration death camp, the Gaza is a modern day prison and Israel is the Guard. Slowly marching the Palestianians to the gas chamber. A modern day holocaust. Egypt, Jordan are paid by the US over 4 billion dollars a year to sit and watch this Holocaust. Innocent lives being lost. The world should be ashamed of this killing.-
Posted By: Zig Zag @ 12/30/2008 2:12:25 PM
I can't believe what an idiot you are.
First, Hamas won the majority, but Fatah still had a strong minority. When Fatah did not agree with Hamas on a number of kjey issues, instead of working through those differences as one would do in a democracy, Hamas violently took over Gaza and unilaterally imposed its own strategy on the Palistinian people living there. And the Palistinians let it happen and now they have to live with the results.
Second, comparing Gaza to a concentration camp is just stupid. With Hamas in control of Gaza, Israel has no choice but to control the borders. How else are they going to stop weapons and explosives from getting into the hands of Hamas? And Egypt agrees ... because they have closed the border on their side too.-
Posted By: freecitizen @ 12/31/2008 3:28:10 PM
"Hamas violently took over Gaza and unilaterally imposed its own strategy on the Palistinian people living there"
WRONG!!
In the weeks preceeding Hamas' so-called violent take over, Israel and the U.S. sent ia large contigent of heavily armed Fatah fighters into Gaza to take down Hamas by force. They got their butts kicked.-
Posted By: joe_mama @ 01/03/2009 2:10:36 AM
"Israel and the U.S. sent ia large contigent of heavily armed Fatah fighters "
evidence? sources? or just talking out your butt?
JM
PS-- I will agree that Hamas was the democratically elected government. The Palestinian people chose a government who supports war and now what do they have......WAR!!!!!
Crazy how that works out isn't it?
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Posted By: bighappy @ 12/29/2008 8:49:46 PM
It is democracy, stupid, which assumes responcibility as well. You elected a bastard, he behaves exactly as he promiced - you must carry full responsibility togethrer with him. If you elected Hamas and they fired rockets - it is you who fired those rockets, and don't cry like a baby after this about "collective" punishment, it was you truly democratic choice to be blown up to pieces.
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Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 12/30/2008 1:05:47 PM
Give that man a cigar.
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Posted By: dd1136 @ 12/31/2008 3:11:39 PM
Thank you Forty4 for taking the time to post the facts and the links available to read the Hamas position. How many times does Hamas, the Palestinians, Iran, etc ad nauseum have to state that they want to totally destroy Israel before people understand? If a group within our own country (say an individual state or states) decided to take up missles and bomb other portions of the US, would we just sit around and say, "Oh well, they have their rights too?" NO of course not. We would do whatever was necessary to stop the assaults. People should stop saying "Oh, the poor Palestinians" and think about the poor Israelis who continuously are having to face missile assaults, suicide bombers, and violent rhetoric calling for their destruction.
Furthermore, the Palestinians were given their own "state" - it's called Jordan.-
Posted By: freecitizen @ 12/31/2008 3:40:29 PM
"If a group within our own country (say an individual state or states) decided to take up missles and bomb other portions of the US, would we just sit around and say, "Oh well, they have their rights too?" NO of course not. We would do whatever was necessary to stop the assaults. "
So by your "logic" if China decided to reclaim California based on the fact that their ancient ancesters came here over the Beiring Strait land bridge 14,000 years ago and we tried to resist with homemade rockets and rocks we would be terrorists undeserving of any human rights.-
Posted By: joe_mama @ 01/02/2009 1:38:30 AM
"So by your "logic" if China decided to reclaim California based on the fact that their ancient ancesters came here over the Beiring Strait land bridge 14,000 years ago and we tried to resist with homemade rockets and rocks we would be terrorists undeserving of any human rights."
You forgot a few things....
IF
the Chinese "reclamation" were established and supported by international organizations....
IF
we were launching mortar attacks from heavily populated civilian positions....
IF
we were convincing young men and women to strap on suicide vests and blow themselves up in civilian areas.....
IF
we refused to recognize China's right to exist....
IF
we turned down peace deal after peace deal and refused to negotiate anything other than a short term cease fire (which we then violated by launching more mortars)....
IF
we engineered a split within the nation, calling those who want peace "collaborators".....
THEN
Yes, we would be terrorists and NO, we would not deserve any human rights.
Any questions?
Love,
JM-
Posted By: Zig Zag @ 01/02/2009 2:03:32 PM
Logic and Freecitizen are like two ships that pass in the night. He/she is just another nut job.
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Posted By: Zig Zag @ 12/31/2008 7:47:27 PM
O.K. - now you are just being stupid.
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Posted By: Zig Zag @ 12/31/2008 9:35:17 PM
Here is a little history lesson for all of those who do not want to take the time to educate themselves:
Palestine was occupied by the Turks from 1516 until WWI, at which time it was conquered by Great Britain. Great Britain promised the formation of an Arab state as well as the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people. At the time, these agreements were not considered to be contradictory. Britain did not immediately fulfill its commitments under these agreements; instead, the region was divided between Great Britain and France under a secret agreement.
Soon after WWII, Great Britain decided to leave Palestine. The UN attempted to resolve the conflict by creating the Arab state of Jordan. The UN then created a partition plan to divide the remaining land between the Jewish and Arab populations. The Jews accepted the plan, the Arabs did not. The Arabs refused to accept any plan that included an independent homeland for the Jewish people in the Middle East. On May 14th, 1948, the Jewish population declared independence as the State of Israel.
And the rest, as they say, is history.-
Posted By: freecitizen @ 01/01/2009 3:47:32 AM
"Great Britain promised the formation of an Arab state as well as the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people. At the time, these agreements were not considered to be contradictory. Britain did not immediately fulfill its commitments under these agreements; instead, the region was divided between Great Britain and France under a secret agreement."
Do you see the inherent problem here?
"these agreements were not considered to be contradictory"
Considered by who exactly?
Britain has no right to promise a homeland for other Europeans to indulge their ancient religeous mythology on land already occupied by other people. Neither did France NOR did the UN which was a wholey owned subsideary of the United States at the end of WWII. Before the Zionist movement took hold the Jewish population of Palestian rarely exceed 3% and the Jews only constituted 13% of the population in 1948.
It was Israel's plan from day one to displace all arab populations from all the lands of Palestine by any and all means necessary. You can read the words of David Ben Gurion, he was quite clear and honest on the subject. Even then Israel had no intention of ever answering to any international authority, Ben Gurion clearly stated that they were only going to pretend to observe UN mandates and only until they had mustered enought strength to "drive the arabs into the sea." EVERY decision Israel has made to date clearly indicates they have no intention of living in peace with it's co-inhabitants of the so-called Holy Land. That's why they have 450,000 jews living illegally in settlements in the West Bank. That's why Israel torpedoed the latest peace plan because it included the right of Palestians to return to the vacinity of their ancestral homes and live as law abiding Israeli s citizens. "Israel is for the Jews and no one else." Allowing Palestinians to return would have "endangered the Jewish Identiy" of Israel."
Curiously even my friend who is a secular Jew says he can't qualify for Israeli citizenship based on his lack of clearly demonstrated religious belief. The next time somebody calls Israel a democracy ask them why a democracy would use a religious test as a grounds for citizenship, property rights and civil rights. Come to think of it most of the pro Israelis here continually claim that merely scrutinizing Israel's behavior is tantamont to being a Nazi and that Israel and the Jewish faith are one indivisible entity. If so, why can't we sue the U.S. government for supporting one religion over another in violation of the US Constitution?-
Posted By: Zig Zag @ 01/01/2009 4:49:28 PM
First, you can't use hindsight to judge historical decisions. Prior to WWI, the prevailing belief was that the needs for a Jewish and a Palistinian homeland were not incompatible. As a matter of fact, the Arabs and Jews stated as much in the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement of 1918. To say "can't you see the inherent problem here" with the benefit of 90 years of hindsight in illogical.
Second, you say the British had no right to make such agreements. Again, you are wrong. Palistine was under the control of the Turks from 1516 to when it was conquered by the British in WWI. They had the control of the territory at the time. To make the argument that the British had not right to make those agreements because they did not live there flies in the face of human history. People have been conquering one another for thousands of years and the conquerors have made treaties, agreements, and distributed land without the consent of the population. To imply otherwise is a bit niave, unless of course you are relying on a biblical background, in which case all logical arguments are wasted on you.
Third, you might be right, the Zionist intentions may have been to take over the entire area after the partition. But we will never know, because it didn't happen. Not all Jews are Zionists, just as all Palitinians are not Hamas. Any argument based on what might have happened, what might have been intended, are also illogical.
So once again, you are proven wrong.-
Posted By: freecitizen @ 01/01/2009 6:48:09 PM
Zig Zag I don't see anything in your post constituting proof of anything.
You say that by right of conquest England had the right to give away the holy land to a tiny protion of its inhabitants. I know that white Europrean Christains actually believed they were God's chosen rulers of the universe and believed they knew what was best for everybody on the planet , but the current state of the holyland proves they didn't know poop from shinola and were dead wrong both on moral and practical terms. Even then there was a concept that there can be no peace without justice.
You say that a Jew and an Arab got together and declared it was possible for Arabs and Jews to live together. That was assuming they would treat each other as equals equals and respect for each others rights. Things didn't happen that way as it was Israel's founding fathers intent to displace the Arab population at the earilest opportunity and by any means necessary.
I don't use the word Zionist as pejorative term. It simply means that you believe in the establishment of a Jewish state. Every Jew living in Israel is by definition a Zionist. Some believe that it is ordained by god and some don't, Most of Israel's early founders were secular, socialist and extremely pragmatic people, but it has to be understood that the founding Israelis came ashore as a desperate and deeply traumatized population having suffered unspeakable deprevation at the hands of Europes so-called Christain population. Their mode of operation had a very short and epedient time horizon, for their survival was at stake at every instant . To this day Israel has bounced from one emergency to the next in a constant state of war.
War does terrible things to the people who practice it. I've been there and done that. Take the example fo the United States for instance during World War II. We started out incensed and outraged that the Japanese would dare attack a military target without warning, but by the end of the war we were laying waste to entire civilian populations in asingle flash without even a thought about what we were doing. Such is the progression of moral decay that war produces and the longer it lasts the greater the distance between your perceptions and your ability to recognize of the basic humanity of your enemy. In due time both sides become inhuman both in deed and in the state of their hearts living up to the image they paint of each other. Such os the state of p[lay in the Middle East.-
Posted By: Zig Zag @ 01/02/2009 2:01:22 PM
Perhaps I can clarify things for you. When I use the term "right", I refer to the long standing practice, dating back thousands of years, of conquerors controlling the land that they have conquered. This is a simply an acknowledgement of reality, not an approval of it from a moral perspective.
If you look at the history of the our country, what we did to the Indians over the last two centuries, was not right from a moral perspective. But that did not change the right of the U.S. Government to convey land to its citizens. At this stage in history, it would not be realistic or practical to believe the indians can get the land back. At some point, one must accept the situation as it currently is and work towards a solution from this point forward.
From a moral perspective, there was no more justification for the British actions that there were for the Turks before them, or the Romans of ancient times. But denying the reality of situation, even based on idealistic grounds, is not helpful to reaching a solution.
I do not disagree with you about war or the effects it has on people. The fact that Jews and Arabs once believed they could live together in peace means that it possible, although the scars of the current conflict make it extremely difficult. That is why war is to be avoided if at all possible.
My support of Israel is with respect to this specific issue - they have the right to strike against Hamas to stop the shelling of their cities.
With respect to the broader issues - both sides are equally to blame. And the issues are complex. But we still must work hard to solve them. Many people thought the conflict in Northern Ireland was unsolvable. And while few would say that it was been solved yet, it has at least reached the point where civilians are no longer being killed.
Who knows, perhaps a similar state can be reached in the Middle East. It certianly seems to be moving in that direction from the perspective of the West Bank. I think the same can be accomplished in Gaza, but only if Hamas changes its strategy or is removed.
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