To Fix Islam, Start From the Inside

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  • Posted By: TruthBeSpoken @ 01/05/2009 12:08:22 AM

    Indonesia celebrates "Unity in Diversity" ? Who are you kidding ? Most of the minoritiy religions (Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, animists, etc.) are categorically persecuted by the government and the religious mullahs. Check out the plight of minorities in Indonesia and other Ismalic countries. Please get your facts straight. Stop promoting Islam as a religion of peace. Hiding your head in the sand will not alter the truth. The brutality that Islam has imposed on humanity since the 7th century can not be denied. Please read the history with an open mind and clear conscience. If you are not an Arab Muslim, chances are your ancestors were (raped, tortured, coerced, forced married or economically black-mailed) into converting to Islam. You need to learn the world history and the spread of Islam from 7th century onwards. To fix Islam, all whose ancestors were forced into conversion into Islam should denounce Islam and return to your ancestral heritage or accept other more peaceful philosophies that do not prosletyse. It is important first step to accept that Islam is a religion of tyranny and inequality. The truth is very bitter and hard to swallow but the more you seek the truth and accept it, you will feel better.

    • Posted By: mataharih @ 01/05/2009 10:56:11 AM

      "Truth" you are so full of bull. Are you stating that other religions are so pious when they too had done the same things? Remember "Manifest Destiny", the occupation of Northen America, South America and Africa? Maybe you should get your facts straight before talking about Muslims "denouncing" Islam and converting to other religions. Get some education, you Hypocrite.

      • Posted By: TruthBeSpoken @ 01/05/2009 6:24:57 PM

        mataharih:
        What the Christians have done to the native people of North and South Americas is not praiseworthy. It is a shame that in the name of God (one that is worshipped by the children of Abraham) how many innocent human beings have been massacred around the globe. Count the dead in North America, South America, Africa, Europe, Asia in the name of God, be it the Conquistadors, Christian Crusaders or the Islamic expansion through Persia, Indian sub-continent and south east Asia. The truth is that Jesus never ran around with a band of murderers like Mohammed. And Jesus preached and practiced love and peace. Muslims and Christians have both shed tons of innocent blood around the world. This thread was not about what religions have done to humanity, it was about changing Islam for the betterment of women (Manji's article). And my point is that you can not change a religion with 7th century mentality, one that condones violence, murder, torture, etc. towards other human beings. Unfortunately, if you were brought up in an Islamic country, you have very little knowledge of other world religions, cultures, etc.
        Go read about the cultures and religions of Mayas, Incas, Aztecs, Gypsies, Wiccans, Zorostrians, Sikhs, Jains, Hindus, Buddhists, Hopis, Senecas, Cherokees, etc. with an open mind. You may learn more about humans, and the need for love and peace and harmony.

      • Posted By: rangerone314 @ 01/05/2009 1:59:08 PM

        As a non-monotheist (a witch and no great fan of Christianity), I do have to concede that Christianity was founded upon pacifism and non-violence, one reason early Christians were persecuted by the Romans, for not joining the military. Jesus would never have waged wars of conquest of North or South America.

        It strikes me that Christianity got first corrupted when it became the official religion of the Roman Empire and went through such "reforms" as the Council of Nicea... it became Romanized and in turn weakened the Roman Empire internally, leading to Rome's fall. I would also concede it got corrupted a second time by exposure to a militant, expansionistic Islam lead by Abu Bakr (Mohammed's successor). From the beginning Islam was about taking over first the Arab tribes and then the Persian and Byzantine empires. Mohammed and Abu Bakr were warlords who in my opinion warped Christianity into what eventually conquered the Americas (and who burned witches in Europe and Salem, Mass.)

        Neitzche said if you fight dragons long enough, you become a dragon. The Christians fought the early Moslems long enough to become just like them. The Crusades were attempted AFTER Muslims had stormed into Christian areas and taken over. Indonesia is one of the few countries where Islam wasn't spread by the sword.

        I would dislike Christianity less if it actually resembled what it was immediately after Christ's death. I would dislike Islam less if it actually DIDN'T resemble what it was immediately after Mohammed's death

  • Posted By: kingrichard @ 01/04/2009 10:18:57 PM

    You have got to be kidding me! Most poor countries are poor because they are overpopulated and ruled by the modern equivalent of barbaric caliphs. We should build schools for you? Why? So the taliban can blow them up and throw acid in the faces of school girls? I won't bother to address most of your specious claims, except to say I'm gonna need some statistics (facts, you know) on most of them. But here's a few I will respond to:

    1. Most women are treated like 2nd class citizens or pieces of flesh./ They have rights like voting and driving a car and not being beat by their husbands.

    2. More murders and rapes occur in the western world both in number and by far per capita./ I guess honor killings don't count and exactly who would an islamic woman report a rape to without risking being buried alive or stoned to death.

    3. The homosexual and pedophilia lifestyles are open and have infested much of the west./ see Mohammed and Aisha for pedophilia; have a gay pride parade in Iran, etc. and see who shows.

    6. Depression and other mental illness are common place./ Well, at least we've got psychopaty under reasonable control. No one strapping on bombs and walking into Starbucks.

    7. Domestic abuse against children and women is much more frequent in the west./ Reported much more frequently, I think you meant to say. It's accepted practice in your hell holes.

    8. The greed of many in west collapsed the entire world economy./ Really? I suppose all the muslim oil billionnaires had nothing to do with it. They're now moaning and groaning that oil has dropped to $40/barrel +/-.

    10. The usa has 2 million in jail, 2 MILLION!!!/ At least we don't chop off heads and hands, and adultry is not a criminal offense. You kill them, we put 'em on ice for awhile. I myself don't agree with the incarceration level in this country, but I have no doubt there will come a time when we find a better answer. A hundred years ago we treated the mentally ill horribly. Today, we reject this, not always perfectly, but we repudiated it. That is the strength of the West; we learn from our mistakes and try to fix them. We develop. You don't.

    11. The USA's Gun culture contributes to more murders in the USA--per capita and in total ----than the etire world combined!/ I suppose all the innocent civilians killed by muslim maniacs don't count.

    12. The Americans drive the cocaine and heroin smuggling throughout the world. The Americans demand it and they use it in huge numbers, without American demand Mexico and the rest of South America would cease to being a military zone--and the Taliban would be out of business./ What if the Afghan opium growers and SA cocaine producers just said No? They are all quite happy to take US dollars.

    By the way, where do I send the bill for all this time I wasted on you?

    • Posted By: smilethecrescent @ 01/05/2009 2:37:20 PM

      as an advice, please look up the definition of pedophilia. then if you please look at the age of every one of the Prophet Muhammad's wives. And the exact conditions in which he married the young Aisha. Stop commiting libel.

      • Posted By: kingrichard @ 01/05/2009 5:54:23 PM

        Pedophilia is rampant in the muslim world. Hidden, but rampant. But you would know that better that I.

  • Posted By: Creative Life @ 01/05/2009 4:41:50 PM

    Thank God someone is saying this! I am an American Muslim woman who converted to Islam (Western European decent) and have travelled all around the Muslim world. What I have seen has made me take a huge look at Muslims. Islam is beautiful and gave strength to women and would solve the world's problems IF ONLY it was practiced as God intended. But so many Muslim men and women are uneducated or listen to one so-called "scholar" and take it as they say it. The Arab/Israeli conflict, 9/11 and "Not Without My Daughter" are the first thing people reference when they think of Islam when they have nothing to do with Islam. Much of what people think badly of Islam is not Islam at all but cultural things Muslims practice..... I would love to start seeing more Muslim women fully participating in society, not feeling like their onl role is to have children and cook and clean the home. Prophet Mohammad's wife was HIS BOSS! She was an active, productive participant in society at that time and she is one of our greatest role models. She was intelligent, took care of her busines and her home and her husband. She didn't sit in her home or isolate herself from the world. The hijab (veil) does not stop us from participating in life. It is what ALLOWS us to participate in a pure way while not being viewed purely for sexual reasons as so many women do. In fact, I am not married and I choose to convert to Islam and wear hijab after much research. . My friends and I have endless hobbies and we take full advantage of the beautiful world God gave us. I would love to see more Muslim women stand up and take hold of the rights God gave them to be educated, productive individuals in their own right.

  • Posted By: Neira @ 01/05/2009 4:14:56 PM

    each time there is a ware between Jews and Arabic the "Islam religion " comes out politic in the middle east has nothing to do with Allah they doing war not for the sake of Allah, more of the Palestine and Jews does not following God's rules if they do so, no one will fire, stop bringing Islam and any religion to this level, to fix the world start with your self first do not point your finger to other fix your sole your self first start from your inside not the women , we are good the problem not with us

  • Posted By: freddiek @ 01/04/2009 3:21:19 PM

    Honestly, this author, Manji, is without a doubt justifiying her own sin filled life. Manji is a "lesbian" and if you look at her photo you can easily see why--- I doubt any man would want her. So this ridiculous article along with her idiotic books are essentially written to sway Islam toward her "personal prayers and beliefs". This woman truly has no idea about Islam and the 600 million females across the world that believe in it. Manji assumes all Islamic men are uneducated, violent brutes. I am upset by this implict thread in her article. My family immigrated to the USA 40 years ago and i was born and raised in the USA. My mother andother females in my family are the most devout muslims you would ever meey. They are not abused or uneducated---actually they are quite the opposite. If you were to ask them why they are so devout you they would answer that the prevailing disgusting culture in the West has prompted them tto become even more faithful. In my family when we arrived in the USA we became educated and we worked hard, but we didn't run around with our freedoms to drink and to engage in homosexual behavior as a sign of "freedom".
    Even in Canada there are rules---do you follow them Manji? So why shouldn't Islam have rules?
    I think most muslims would agree that usually the most devout muslim women are found in western countries because they abhor they way the west mistreats women---this in the face of "freedoms" in the west.
    What does that tell you Manji--- I think you need to be fixed.
    .

    • Posted By: Civilized @ 01/04/2009 5:28:46 PM

      People who believe in islam should first behave like normal human beings and learn how to live in civilized societies. Thye should keep their religion at home and mosques. Stop sending your kids to madarassas where they are brainwashed with hatred and taught violence and extremism

      • Posted By: Saul522 @ 01/05/2009 3:57:29 PM

        Can we all ask who sent you to a madrassa and filled YOU with such ignorance and hatred?

      • Posted By: freddiek @ 01/04/2009 8:53:45 PM

        You know from the comforts of a western country its easy for you tell people in poor countries to simply "not send thier children to madrassahs". Clearly you have no idea about this subject. People in poor countries who have little money sometimes have no option but to send thier children to a madrassah, why? BECAUSE THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO SEND KIDS TO A REGULAR SCHOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe rich countries should invest in building schools rather than bombing. Another thing 99% of muslims live civilised lives and do not engage in violence and hate. Can
        you say the same in the west? Look at your failings: In the west
        1. Most women are treated like 2nd class citizens or pieces of flesh.
        2. More murders and rapes occur in the western world both in number and by far per capita.
        3. The homosexual and pedophilia lifestyles are open and have infested much of the west.
        4. 50 % of marriages end in divorce usually leaving kids behind.
        5. The incidence of pharm. drugs abuse is off the charts.
        6. Depression and other mental illness are common place.
        7. Domestic abuse against children and women is much more frequent in the west.
        8. The greed of many in west collapsed the entire world economy.
        9. The abuse of seniors and disabled people is commonplace.
        10. The usa has 2 million in jail, 2 MILLION!!!
        11. The USA's Gun culture contributes to more murders in the USA--per capita and in total ----than the etire world combined!
        12. The Americans drive the cocaine and heroin smuggling throughout the world. The Americans demand it and they use it in huge numbers, without American demand Mexico and the rest of South America would cease to being a military zone--and the Taliban would be out of business.
        13. The USA, byt far and away have more drunk driving deaths tha the rest of the world combined.
        Tell me, if you lost your child to a drunk driver vs. a terrorist attack---what would be the difference?
        In my view drunk driving and smuggling drugs are just like terrorism---because it preys on everyone.



        What about all of that? We

  • Posted By: ross1972 @ 01/04/2009 3:14:51 PM

    To have someone say on this forum that groups like Lashkar-e-Toiba,Hezbollah
    and Al Qaeda are fighting injustice in the world like islamic superfriends is disheartening to put it mildly.

    • Posted By: Saul522 @ 01/05/2009 3:55:53 PM

      As many have mentioned repeatedly so far in this discussion thread, the problem is ignorant cultural practices, and not Islam.

      In Islam, women are explicitly allowed to go to the mosque. There are actual texts forbidding men from deny women entry to the mosque. After this, any men that do so are doing so not because of Islam, but because of cultural traditions or for other reasons.

      Muslim women do not ???have to??? cover their face, as you can see for yourself there are many Muslim women who wear their hijab with their faces open. Those who wish to cover their nose and mouth do so out of cultural conservatism. Islam itself is not internally monolithic and allows for a wide range of thought.

      Muslim girls are allowed to go to school and be educated ??? there is nothing in Islam that forbids this. Do not hold up the Taliban and their practices to be representative of Islam, because their practices are ??? again ??? culture and not part of Islam.

      As for having kids, I don???t see what the problem is. Plenty of non-Muslim families in America have large amounts of kids ??? MSNB ran a story just a few weeks ago about a Christian family in Arkansas that has just welcomed their 18th child [eighteen]. Why do you object if Muslims have X or Y number of kids?

      Please try researching before you post.

      Peace.

  • Posted By: christopherkidwell1 @ 01/05/2009 3:41:44 PM

    Another point that people seem to miss is that most of this is coming from our societies problem with sex. People seem to think that sex is something 'disgusting' outside of marriage, without realizing that marriage is a HUMAN invention, not any 'gods' invention.
    It is a human invention that was made in order to cement familial alliances, and didn't work very well at doing that!

    The whole world would be better served if we would just realize that marriage DEMEANS the people in it, and that the children of this world are for ALL of us to raise, not just a mother and father, because we are ALL going to have to deal with them when they are adults and maybe.... even sooner than that in some cases.

  • Posted By: freddiek @ 01/05/2009 10:28:40 AM

    King richard you are a mindless animal. Your responses are ridiculous. Anyway I never said that muslims were perfect. I want this forum to know about the massive problems that the west should contend with before telling muslims to change thier beliefs.
    Hey starlite----Have you heard or read about Catholic priests???How many have been busted for child abuse? How much of the Church's money went to settle with families worldwide rather than charity?
    Does it say its ok in the bible to torment altar boys?

    • Posted By: kingrichard @ 01/05/2009 12:57:38 PM

      You are entitled to your opinion, as we all are, except those that live in muslim nations.

  • Posted By: Bob_999 @ 01/05/2009 12:47:07 PM

    Reading the comments that have been posted, one is inclined to say, "Those who do not know history are doomed to talk about it."

  • Posted By: Starlite @ 01/05/2009 10:54:47 AM

    freddiek, I never supported the Catholic church in any way, . . why are you jumping down my throat? I said that the Catholic church has corrupted itself ever since the Roman times because of the politics. Popes, Holy traditions, etc, etc. Take a breath son.

  • Posted By: TruthBeSpoken @ 01/05/2009 12:06:51 AM

    Indonesia celebrates "Unity in Diversity" ? Who are you kidding ? Most of the minoritiy religions (Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, animists, etc.) are categorically persecuted by the government and the religious mullahs. Check out the plight of minorities in Indonesia and other Ismalic countries. Please get your facts straight. Stop promoting Islam as a religion of peace. Hiding your head in the sand will not alter the truth. The brutality that Islam has imposed on humanity since the 7th century can not be denied. Please read the history with an open mind and clear conscience. If you are not an Arab Muslim, chances are your ancestors were (raped, tortured, coerced, forced married or economically black-mailed) into converting to Islam. You need to learn the world history and the spread of Islam from 7th century onwards. To fix Islam, all whose ancestors were forced into conversion into Islam should denounce Islam and return to your ancestral heritage or accept other more peaceful philosophies that do not prosletyse. It is important first step to accept that Islam is a religion of tyranny and inequality. The truth is very bitter and hard to swallow but the more you seek the truth and accept it, you will feel better.

    • Posted By: mataharih @ 01/05/2009 10:51:24 AM

      And you are saying that Christians are so pieous too? What about Manifest Destiny and the occupation of Northern, Southern America and Africa? You should get your own facts straight before talking about "truth".. Hypocrite.

  • Posted By: IsraelisTumor @ 01/05/2009 10:16:28 AM

    Irshad Manji's idea of fixing Islam is to make all women lesbians which she herself is. Tell this to Pat Robertson and other evangelicals may be they would want an advice or two from her.

  • Posted By: GiveLove&Peace @ 01/05/2009 9:53:09 AM

    I wish people would stop abusing the word Jihad.

  • Posted By: MuslimMuslim @ 01/02/2009 10:04:15 AM

    I started reading this article without knowing the name of the writer. It took me the two first paragraphs to understand that this is one of the so called "Muslim reformers" or call them "Moderate Muslims". I scrolled up to check, and here you go! Irshad Manji, promoting other so-called "reformers" Naim and Tibi. I surely did not finish the article, because each time I read these people I feel the need to vomit.

    • Posted By: ziaislam @ 01/02/2009 4:24:39 PM

      Hey I don't like her at all. But what she is saying is true. I have a daughter and I want her to be able to do everything that my son can, and maybe more! Look at moderate muslim nations like Bangladesh and Indonesia to get your insight. Don't shoot the messenger!!

      • Posted By: MuslimMuslim @ 01/05/2009 9:07:38 AM

        I do not know the messenger if not by his message. It is true that Muslim Nations -not Islam- need a reform, but this reform must be done by people who love the Muslims not by people like Manji, the hire of the neocons, fox news and Muslims haters. Manji wants an Islam that fits her desires and the desire of the west, not the Islam that make you and your beloved kids submit to the one God.

    • Posted By: FATJOEY @ 01/02/2009 11:20:30 AM

      AMEN

  • Posted By: kingrichard @ 01/04/2009 11:44:40 PM

    Well, I wanted to make a statement with that nick. I tried "crusader," taken; "whiteknight," taken; "kingrichard" open! So wtf is "jbz7879" supposed to envoke? But Richard was actually French and couldn't stand living in England. It always rains there, he said. But I am not Richard I; I know that. So insult away... I'm not a muslim and won't go rabid...

  • Posted By: jbz7879 @ 01/04/2009 11:16:01 PM

    richard the mouse hearted -
    he got his backside kicked
    out of a land called holy
    he was not that jolly

    so he ran back to blighty

  • Posted By: kingrichard @ 01/04/2009 8:40:51 PM

    Fix islam? Yeah, right... like that'll happen in this millennium. Islam is a primitive cult, one that has not developed one iota in 1300 years. When they stop the terror - pursuing imaginary virgins, etc. - it may ultimately develop into a real religion.... in a few hundred years! Like I beleive that! Islam needs to be contained until it succumbs to its own rot. And all you islamites can spare me with your drivel about how wonderful it is and any accusations about how much I may hate islam will be considered compliments. I do indeed detest each and every one of you and wish you tenfold the horror and misery you have inflicted on the world. Now stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

    • Posted By: chedet @ 01/04/2009 8:54:24 PM

      What an insult to the real king richard. Don't use his name if you are going to spew hatred. Hitler will be a better nick for you.

      • Posted By: jbz7879 @ 01/04/2009 11:14:55 PM

        richard the mouse hearted -
        he got his backside kicked
        out of a land called holy
        he was not that jolly

        so he ran back to blighty

      • Posted By: kingrichard @ 01/04/2009 9:12:43 PM

        I think the name rather fits:

        Richard had kept 2,700 Muslim prisoners as hostages against Saladin fulfilling all the terms of the surrender of the lands around Acre. Philip, before leaving, had entrusted his prisoners to Conrad, but Richard forced him to hand them over to him. Richard feared his forces being bottled up in Acre, as he believed his campaign could not advance with the prisoners in train. He therefore ordered all the prisoners executed.

        Go King Richard!

      • Posted By: kingrichard @ 01/04/2009 8:58:30 PM

        Works for me...

  • Posted By: freddiek @ 01/04/2009 9:15:49 PM

    You know from the comforts of a western country its easy for you tell people in poor countries to simply "not send thier children to madrassahs". Clearly you have no idea about this subject. People in poor countries who have little money sometimes have no option but to send thier children to a madrassah, why? BECAUSE THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO SEND KIDS TO A REGULAR SCHOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe rich countries should invest in building schools rather than bombing. Another thing 99% of muslims live civilised lives and do not engage in violence and hate. Can
    you say the same in the west? Look at your failings: In the west
    1. Most women are treated like 2nd class citizens or pieces of flesh.
    2. More murders and rapes occur in the western world both in number and by far per capita.
    3. The homosexual and pedophilia lifestyles are open and have infested much of the west.
    4. 50 % of marriages end in divorce usually leaving kids behind.
    5. The incidence of pharm. drugs abuse is off the charts.
    6. Depression and other mental illness are common place.
    7. Domestic abuse against children and women is much more frequent in the west.
    8. The greed of many in west collapsed the entire world economy.
    9. The abuse of seniors and disabled people is commonplace.
    10. The usa has 2 million in jail, 2 MILLION!!!
    11. The USA's Gun culture contributes to more murders in the USA--per capita and in total ----than the etire world combined!
    12. The Americans drive the cocaine and heroin smuggling throughout the world. The Americans demand it and they use it in huge numbers, without American demand Mexico and the rest of South America would cease to being a military zone--and the Taliban would be out of business.
    13. The USA, byt far and away have more drunk driving deaths tha the rest of the world combined.
    Tell me, if you lost your child to a drunk driver vs. a terrorist attack---what would be the difference?
    In my view drunk driving and smuggling drugs are just like terrorism---because it preys on everyone.

    • Posted By: rf8888 @ 01/04/2009 9:49:50 PM

      Saying that fewer people choose homosexuality, drugs, etc. or succumb to depression, etc. in Muslim cultures than in western (non-muslim) cultures is bad comparison. Western cultures are much more "free" than Muslim cultures. In most Muslim cultures, people will be executed or have their hands cut off for choosing anything contrary to what the currently in power group deem to be ok. Is someone "better" than someone else because they don't do something out of fear (rather than out of a motive of love ... of others or God) ? I get it that you think that non-muslim cultures are the root of all evil and that Islam and ALL Muslims are perfect. But this all or nothing reasoning will not help anyone includng yourself. There are phariseas in Islam just as there were/are phariseas in Judasim and Christianity ... Hinduism, etc.

  • Posted By: freddiek @ 01/04/2009 9:13:26 PM

    You know from the comforts of a western country its easy for you tell people in poor countries to simply "not send thier children to madrassahs". Clearly you have no idea about this subject. People in poor countries who have little money sometimes have no option but to send thier children to a madrassah, why? BECAUSE THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO SEND KIDS TO A REGULAR SCHOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe rich countries should invest in building schools rather than bombing. Another thing 99% of muslims live civilised lives and do not engage in violence and hate. Can
    you say the same in the west? Look at your failings: In the west
    1. Most women are treated like 2nd class citizens or pieces of flesh.
    2. More murders and rapes occur in the western world both in number and by far per capita.
    3. The homosexual and pedophilia lifestyles are open and have infested much of the west.
    4. 50 % of marriages end in divorce usually leaving kids behind.
    5. The incidence of pharm. drugs abuse is off the charts.
    6. Depression and other mental illness are common place.
    7. Domestic abuse against children and women is much more frequent in the west.
    8. The greed of many in west collapsed the entire world economy.
    9. The abuse of seniors and disabled people is commonplace.
    10. The usa has 2 million in jail, 2 MILLION!!!
    11. The USA's Gun culture contributes to more murders in the USA--per capita and in total ----than the etire world combined!
    12. The Americans drive the cocaine and heroin smuggling throughout the world. The Americans demand it and they use it in huge numbers, without American demand Mexico and the rest of South America would cease to being a military zone--and the Taliban would be out of business.
    13. The USA, byt far and away have more drunk driving deaths tha the rest of the world combined.
    Tell me, if you lost your child to a drunk driver vs. a terrorist attack---what would be the difference?
    In my view drunk driving and smuggling drugs are just like terrorism---because it preys on everyone.

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