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The Last Model Standing Is France

For better or worse, French-style intervention is gaining the upper hand as other economic models lose credibility.

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  • Posted By: ploughman @ 01/14/2009 10:29:12 PM

    If you listened to U.S. conservatives, you'd think Europe was on the brink of imminent collapse for the last 40 or so years. If the economic model really was that bad, it would have collapsed into third-world status and made the social programs unaffordable long ago. Instead, you can make an argument that the bottom 80% of Europeans are actually quite a bit BETTER off than the bottom 80% of Americans; it's only at the top where it flips. Most Europeans work about 30% less than Americans, make about 30% less, pay much higher taxes, but don't suffer anywhere near a 30% drop in living standards vs. Americans because of efficiencies allowed via government and harnessing the power of community. For example, it's easy to get around most cities on transit or often by foot or by bike. That saves thousands vs. American sprawler cities where cars are mandatory, while actually helping quality of life. Housing in Europe is more likely to be structurally efficient from shared walls and structures built to last, subsidized or not. Your yard may be tiny (less cost there), but there's a park down the road. Total health care spending is only two-thirds that of the U.S., but everyone is covered. So Europeans generally get a lot of return for the money on standard of living, and the French especially are good at avoiding the work-and-spend treadmill. By contrast, many Americans might be making more than presidents of small countries but still have real reason to feel overworked or stretched.

    • Posted By: Interested American @ 01/15/2009 9:19:32 AM

      What tripe. France taxes its hightest earners so greatly that once people make any money they start hiding it outside the country... they have a huge social infrastructure at the expense of being able to militarily defend themselves... so we do it for them. Once we have "their" economy they will be defenseless because we won't be able to afford a military because everyone will be on the dole. The reason they have so many problems with mulism "youths" (read 18 to 30 year old men) is because to make their welfare state work, they need young workers to pay into the system... because they are too civilized to have families and children of their own to support a welfare state. So now, they have thousands of unassimilated muslims, whom they treat like crap, to contend with...

      Yeah, their system is great. Your ability to overlook unpleasant facts is amazing. This recent election was a complete rejection of a more socialist agenda... but you think we should follow them! When did the self-described intellectuals become so stupid?

      • Posted By: sarthoutanun @ 03/07/2009 8:34:21 AM

        Waow gee! I'm French; I have been living in hell for 57 years and I didn't know. Thanks for telling me Mr 'interested American Jerk.
        But we didn't have 8 long, long years with George W and his glorious bunch to lead the world to the mess it's in now. So, after all we're not so unlucky over here.

      • Posted By: sarthoutanun @ 03/07/2009 8:30:51 AM

        Waow gee! I'm French; I have been living in hell for 57 years and I didn't know. Thanks for telling me Mr 'interested American Jerk.
        But we didn't have 8 long, long years with George W and his glorious bunch to lead the world to the mess it's in now. So, after all we're not so unlucky over here.

      • Posted By: sarthoutanun @ 03/07/2009 6:21:50 AM

        Waow...! I'm French, I was living in hell and I did not know. Thanks for telling me Mr 'Interested American'
        By the way I know your country fairly well. I love spending my vacations there. I did meet great and friendly people there each time I go and I have a few very close and very good friends in your country. But I'm sorry, I wouldn't like to live in your consumer's paradise.
        And don't forget that if we do treat our muslim immigrants like crap sometimes we also, and I for one, teach them for free in our education system which is open to every French resident, rich or poor, white of colored. We also provide them with equal health opportunities and we've never had segregated public services, local or national. We even have two women ministers coming from this immigration group. Everything is far from perfect over here, but I think that when your renowned black Jazz musicians adopted Paris and France in the fifties, they knew what they were doing.
        But I am willing to forgive the one-sided, contemptuous vision you're trying to give of my country, after all you people have elected President Obama and that's great after 8 years with an evil pathetic jerk and his glorious team who helped lead the world where it is now.

      • Posted By: SuperFrenchie @ 01/15/2009 12:41:03 PM

        //they need young workers to pay into the system... because they are too civilized to have families and children of their own to support a welfare state.//

        Sorry but France leads Europe in birth rates:

        http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g7DiKvh2mWQrcECyFxCjC8vhkgFw

        And no, it's not "the Muslims." The list of baby names doesn't have a single "muslim" name from 0 to 20, girls or boys:

        http://meilleursprenoms.com/stats/topannee.php3

    • Posted By: bashfulx @ 01/14/2009 11:06:20 PM

      The ultimate measure of societal advancement is the life expectancy of ordinary citizens.

  • Posted By: paulte @ 01/15/2009 11:46:02 AM

    There is no proven method to keep the economy humming in terms of government involvement. The best policy is for government to stay out of it as much as possible. The more the government is involved, the more problems there are. The only answer is the marketplace itself. The US govt spending $700B to bail out banks is no answer at all. If they truly need that kind of help to survive then something is seriously wrong with the economy itself.

    The root problem of the financial crisis is the government itself. The government forced banks to lend money to credit unworthy people of color. That's it in a nutshell! Also, the government forced the banks to take off the red lines on bad areas. The red lines should go back where they belong!

    The government does have a role to play in the economy and financial matters. For one thing the government needs to set up much stricter rules for mortgages. There should be no discrimination in terms of mortgage lending per se in terms of the person seeking a loan but the banks should be free not to finance mortgages in bad areas with high crime rates where the homes are not likely to be well maintained and arson free.

    • Posted By: maxjackson @ 01/19/2009 8:34:42 AM

      hahah I'm glad you have it all figured out. So the meltdown should be blamed on "people of color". So no white borrowers have defaulted on their mortgages, correct? wow, you are a genius!

  • Posted By: maxjackson @ 01/19/2009 8:26:36 AM

    Wow. I can't believe an economist at Bank of America is allowed to express his analysis of the meltdown considering it was the incompetence of the banks that created this mess in the first place. I'm afraid people like him have lost all their credibility. I'm actually surprised he is still employed by the bank.

    But what really amuses me is Schmieding's outrageous claim that the mess can be traced back to "misguided signals sent by governments". I wish he would elaborate on that because I would love to hear how the free market was tricked by these "signals".

    Mr. Schmieding, you, along with all the Friedman evangelists, need to let go and just admit that the root cause was nothing more than greed and it is in fact the lack of regulation in the global capital market that got us into this mess.

  • Posted By: Fredlast @ 01/16/2009 5:25:01 PM

    English - Interesting, but a little short demonstration. Schmieding retracts an important component. Americans, in spite of a skilful planetary marketing which makes them pass for liberals without qualms , can be as interventionists and pragmatic as the French, and especially, also nationalists. From their agricultural policy to their assistances with the iron and steel industry, while passing by the recent support for the banks, the examples abound. Without forgetting hundreds of billion dollars which the taxpayers mobilized to help the banks and to support the economy. In short, behind the slogans, the border between the systems is fuzzier than it appears to be.

    French - Démonstration intéressante, mais un peu courte. Schmieding escamote un élément important. Les Américains, en dépit d'un marketing planétaire habile qui les fait passer pour des libéraux sans états d'âme, savent être aussi interventionnistes et pragmatiques que les Français, et surtout, aussi nationalistes. De leur politique agricole à leurs aides à la sidérurgie, en passant par le soutien récent aux banques, les exemples abondent. Sans oubliers les centaines de milliards de dollars que les contribuables ont mobilisés pour aider les banques et soutenir l'économie. Bref, derrière les slogans, la frontière entre les systèmes est plus floue qu'il n'y parait.

  • Posted By: eyeswideoopen @ 01/16/2009 6:39:41 AM

    Gee whiz... all these really really smart people can't figure it out. The reason is because they are all intellectually dishonest. Their dual agenda does not allow for honest analysis. It's really very simple.

    They allowed corporations to get too large and to own too many unrelated businesses - creating monoliths. Monoliths need large profits because of the continual demand for growth. They meet the demand for growth by moving offshore - to cheap labor markets but those are only one time savings. By moving manufacturing offshore, then by moving knowledge jobs offshore, they are killing their base economy. Monoliths are like cancer cells - they suck the life out of the healthy cells leaving a diseased and dying body.

    A national economy is like a pool. You can raise or lower the water level in a pool as long as the walls are intact. Globalization drills holes in the wall... and son of a gun, the water all runs out. And so it is with the economy - and no amount of economic stimulus will work to raise the water level. Our economy is dying - and the foundations of our country are crumbling. And all of these "really, really smart people" know it. It is the goal. In the twisted, perverted and diseased minds of the people they work for, a return to feudalism and the dark ages - with global overloads of the planet and slave populations to serve them. And I wish that was fiction or hyperbole - but it isn't. It's the truth.

  • Posted By: French_American @ 01/15/2009 11:25:07 AM

    "Interested American" sounds more like "Ignorant American" by using nothing but tired, old cliches and anecdotes to try and slam France: like rich people in France hide their money abroad (Really? All of them? And ONLY in France? Amazing!!) or the French are too "civilized" to have families (There's a scoop: French Produce No Babies in 2008! Wild!!) and especially the idea that France has no defense "so we do it for them". (Actually, France has long been the most independent NATO member, NOT relying totally on the USA by having a well-regarded NUCLEAR arsenal of their own - generally considered the 3rd most potent in the world, just ahead of China [while Germany, Holland, Spain, Italy, etc. have no such defense]. And while everyone knows the US helped France in WWII - it was much like the time France helped the US become a nation in 1776 as our strongest ally against England). And lastly he claims that France completely rejected socialism in their last election (What a simple view of the world that is! It's like saying the USA completely rejected capitalism in 2008 (i.e. it's nonsense)).

  • Posted By: jrose ct @ 01/15/2009 11:09:53 AM

    For those that attack France for high taxes, I am a lower middle class American taxed 30% of my income. If I get paid more in my career, I expect that number to rise to 40-50% of my income. In exchange, I get pretty much nothing---my childcare costs are killing me and prevent me from participating in my retirement plan. I have NOTHING for retirement and am 41 years old. My child care costs continue on and on as you can't really leave a kid alone until they are like 12-13. Then there are the STUDENT LOANS.....which they also don't have in France because education is paid for---if the childcare doesn't kill you--childcare and student loans together certainly will and IF you don't have healthcare----just forget about it--it almost doesn't even pay to work....Once you are done paying your student loans, you get to borrow again for your kid's....I would glady pay another 15% in taxes to have these three things taken care of because together they certainly cost more than what I would lose by paying that tax...oh and by the way---we DO have money to pay for this stuff now---if we refocus our money on taking care of taxpayers instead of having numerous wars and miltary bases around the world. I have been to France---the rich and middle class both have really nice standards of living. Their racial discrimination aside, the poor do better too.

  • Posted By: Boxer4 @ 01/15/2009 8:56:13 AM

    "Europe would then be outclassed once again by the eventual resurgence of the more flexible United States" - Flexibility? What your selling as flexibility is actually just a much more pronounced boom & bust cycle in comparison to Europe. America may be growing faster during good times but the pain is much greater during bad times

  • Posted By: Yogidad @ 01/15/2009 7:59:01 AM

    "Although closer inspection suggests that much of the financial excesses that turned to waste can be traced back to misguided signals sent by governments and central banks . . ." Really? You mean like passing the modernization acts (1999, 2000) that financial lobbiests paid for? Warren Buffet predicted the results of that legislation and even he was ignored by the industry and government. So if you mean the governments shouldn't have given the market movers what they asked for, then you are correct. But how can we blame government for over leveraging by fund managers, insurance companies and banks as well as the drafting of derivatives that are incomprehensible? The free market apparently gets incredibly greedy and can't be trusted. So if you mean that governments trusted markets too much, then you're correct. Wake-up!! Human nature makes both free markets and government intervention dangerous. The most important thing is to balance the two by enforcing transparency and setting standards and formats government makes it possible for there to be a market at all.

  • Posted By: Yogidad @ 01/15/2009 7:56:53 AM

    "Although closer inspection suggests that much of the financial excesses that turned to waste can be traced back to misguided signals sent by governments and central banks . . ." Really? You mean like passing the modernization acts (1999, 2000) that financial lobbiests paid for? Warren Buffet predicted the results of that legislation and even he was ignored by the industry and government. So if you mean the governments shouldn't have given the market movers what they asked for, then you are correct. But how can we blame government for over leveraging by fund managers, insurance companies and banks as well as the drafting of derivatives that are incomprehensible? The free market apparently gets incredibly greedy and can't be trusted. So if you mean that governments trusted markets too much, then you're correct. Wake-up!! Human nature makes both free markets and government intervention dangerous. The most important thing is to balance the two by enforcing transparency and setting standards and formats government makes it possible for there to be a market at all.

  • Posted By: urbnsurfr @ 01/14/2009 11:23:00 PM

    REALLY? Seriously? France has 10% unemployment rate, Our "plunging economy" is still at 8%. Their poor are desperately poor. Their poor RIOT and set cars on fire because of their desperate conditions. What data do you have that their bottom 80% are better off than hours?

    • Posted By: SuperFrenchie @ 01/15/2009 12:27:20 AM

      Besides, France's unemployment rate as of today is 8%, not 10%!

      http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/PGP_PRD_CAT_PREREL/PGE_CAT_PREREL_YEAR_2008/PGE_CAT_PREREL_YEAR_2008_MONTH_10/3-01102008-EN-AP.PDF

    • Posted By: Rich French @ 01/14/2009 11:55:53 PM

      This is a most backward, truly parochial thought about the French poor.

      • Posted By: SuperFrenchie @ 01/15/2009 12:14:04 AM

        The 10% to 8% comparison isn't apple to apple. You have 2.2 million Americans in jail. That???s 738 inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents. In France it is 9 times fewer (80). There is also a huge administration to cater to them. Some studies have shown that if the U.S. were to have France???s rate of incarceration, its unemployment rate would go up by 2%. In addition, In the U.S., people who have not asked for a job in the last 4 weeks are not counted. If they were, it would add 400,000 unemployed to the U.S. rolls. In France, they are counted.

        And here is a number to back all that up: 86.7% of French males age 25 to 54 are employed. In the U.S., that number is lower, at 86.3%!

        http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/36/30/35024561.pdf

  • Posted By: thosfiore @ 01/14/2009 11:33:08 PM

    OK, so the French get welfare from the Germans in the form of farm subsidies. We have been subsidised by the rest of the world to keep buying their stuff by their buying our T-bills, but that's going away. So the genius of the French economy is that it has a better sugar daddy than we have. The Germans have been trying to eliminate the payments for years and if the world economy stays in bad shape it may open the door for their end; at that time we'll see how well the French model stands up.

    • Posted By: SuperFrenchie @ 01/15/2009 12:08:22 AM

      //OK, so the French get welfare from the Germans in the form of farm subsidies.//

      Incorrect. France is a net contributor to the EU. Look it up!

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