"Arguably, there has been an overreaction to the alleged arrogance and heedlessness of Bush and Cheney???especially Cheney, who almost seemed to take a grim satisfaction in his Darth Vader-esque image."
The only people who would argue about this "contention" are those living in an alternative universe where up is down, black is white and where Bush & Cheney are seen as heros.
We have been attacked by invisible, untouchable and more powerful forces many times over.
But if Obama runs away from his campaign rhetoric will that not deal a fatal blow to democratic elections?
You can tell the electorate what it takes to get elected, and then disregard all that you have said after you have fooled them?
What's going on with this meeting with Conservative media people at George Will's house where everyone was sworn to secretcy???? Niel Bortz, Rush Limbaugh ect. was there. WHAT THE.....!
I can't believe that we are about to seat a man as President of the most powerful country in the world that refuses to let his college records be seen and will not show his actual birth certificate to put all this talk behind him. I also don't believe that our country will allow this to happen. What a mess we will have and what a joke our country will be if it is found out after he is seated as president and has made a number of decissions, that he is not even qualified to be in office. With his background and associations, I doubt if he cound qualify to get a job working in the post office!
Joe M.
It wouldn't be an Obama thread without the loonies crawling out of the woodwork spouting conspiracy theories about his citizenship.
Before Obama takes office, he should release his college records and show his original Birth Certificate. With out doing so, I will never see him as our president. It's better to see that information NOW than see it after heh is in office then have to remove him!
Joe M.
"With out doing so, I will never see him as our president. "
Annnnnnd...nobody cares. Your symbolic refusal is just a fart in a windstorm.
Hang on, newsguy1! On January 20 your thread will break and your fate will be determined...or maybe someone will personally show you his college transcript and his original birth certificate...but don't hang on past January 20th because then all these weak excuses will have run their course...pretty much as you have. Your veiled threat about ...this country "letting" him become President...I hope, .has been noted. Be careful how you say what you say. Let it go!
Hang on, newsguy1! On January 20 your thread will break and your fate will be determined...or maybe someone will personally show you his college transcript and his original birth certificate...but don't hang on past January 20th because then all these weak excuses will have run their course...pretty much as you have. Your veiled threat about ...this country "letting" him become President...I hope, .has been noted. Be careful how you say what you say. Let it go!
If O has nothing to hide, then why not release his college records and provide incontrovertible proof that he is a natural born - not "native" citizen of the U. S. How he won the nomination and even the presidency will always have a nasty smell. Interesting how he has consistently held hiimself above and aloof from standards to which most of us would be subjected. He doesn't even bother to hide the innate arrogance that defines him more than anything else. What he's been allowed to get away with so far thanks to the aiding and abetting of the MSM is pretty horrific.
You need more tinfoil in your hat.
In an effort to explain politics in the light of attacks upon the US, it is a known fact that the president is quickly taken into secret surroundings to ensure the continuation of government. Why then after September 11 was Bush ferried around the country in Air Force One while "President" Cheney was put in a secure hiding place?
And, as to future attacks not coming, it is quite apparent that binLaden achieved just what he set out to do....cause utter paranoia in this country.
And, I'm so glad to see that no one can provide definite definitions for such terms as "liberal, conservative, leftist, etc."
"And, I'm so glad to see that no one can provide definite definitions for such terms as "liberal, conservative, leftist, etc."
That is because those terms are now meaningless, except as a perjorative used by two sets of fools to insult each other with. There are no conservatives anymore, and there are damn sure no liberals, at least none that Jefferson would recognize.
$775 billion: Expected cost of the economic stimulus plan.
$1.2 trillion: Projected federal deficit for 2009.
$30 billion: Annual shortfall to end world hunger.
Political priorities by the numbers. Read more about it on the BORGEN PROJECT website (borgenproject.org)
This is a ridiculous article. The assertion that Cheney / Bush had to make laws in a hurry to deal with terror, and they may not be perfect, but they were done in a rush. That is not true, the Patriot Act was written before 9/11, with careful planning. And torture is never OK - or at least in can never be condoned in any official or public manner, even if it is being done behind the scenes. The writer of this is willing to trade freedom for security, and as such, he and all who support him, deserve neither.
I probably can't get an honest answer, but I'll float a question for the more progressive Americans in this discussion in order to make a fine point about the objective of Taylor and Thomas in this article. Do you think their real objective was to promote Bush's legacy, or to taint Obama by associating with Bush's policies some of the pragmatic choices Obama will have to make? I regretfully contend that my more liberal counterparts in this discussion have mistakenly identified Taylor and Thomas as being opposed to Obama and liberal causes. This article, I think, is about providing cover for Obama, no matter what he does in dealing with terrorism. My guess is that they would be surprised if 5% of Americans recognized the inconsistencies pointed out by people on both sides of this discussion, and appalled to know that any of their less conservative brethren would label them as "dark", "Bushy", "Nazi", or anything other than intelligencia muddying the waters a little for the benefit of the President Elect.
What would Cheney do? Probably eat a puppy.
And for dessert..a kitten!
Cheney? Who is Cheney?......... Oh, VP Cheney. Haven't seen him in years!
Interesting progression, here.
First we're told that torture is okay, as long as you're doing it to a terrorist.
Then we're told that it's okay to torture murderers and kidnappers.
Next I imagine we'll be told it is okay to torture a confession out of a suspected rapist/pedophile/etc, to get him off the street (what if your wife/kid is next?).
I've even been told that your constitution should not be allowed to stand in the way.
So where does it end? What is the smallest offense that justifies torture? Where, precisely, is the line (if anywhere)?
Oh crap horriblebastard, I didn't realize you weren't from around here. You're from one of those "civilized" country that doesn't need to worry about getting their hands dirty. You can afford to play yhe pious role while others do their dirty work for you. which is it? I'm betting Canada.
Interestingly enough, we don't do FOR Canada, we to TO Canada, as shown in the case of the Canadian "renditioned" to Syria for no other crime than passing through a New York airport from Tunisia to Toronto.
And when did you turn into a neocon, Repubssuck? What the hell is going on here? Jesus H Christ. I go away for a week or so, and I return to the Twilight Zone.
Now hold on there doc, those are fighting words. I merely stated that i could come up with a circumstance or two where I would use torture.You don't, I have no argument with that. Horrible bastard is another thing altogether. He won't state he is against torture in all circumstances. he wants to have it both ways. insult those that would and sit on the fence at the same time. Neocon, that's a good one, doc. Who has been attacking Bush/Cheney/Rice nearly everyday on their manufactured evidence causing the deaths of more than 4000 of our bravest and best young women and men. Who attacks the mouth-breathers for belonging to the GOP party of hate, the party that is home to Neo-nazis and KKKers. Who attacks the GOPers for having their heads up the butts of Limbaugh, Hannity and Morris. That would be me, doc.
" He won't state he is against torture in all circumstances. "
I could be wrong, but that's not the impression I got.
I concur.
Where will this end? Will we as a nation become so retarded with out "I have nothing to hide" mentality that torture will become an acceptible method to catch petty drug peddlers?
Everything this nation does to others, it eventually does to its own people.
Just look at some of Repubssuck comments, among others. They have already advocated using it on kidnappers and murderers, rather than just terrorists.
It ends when we've shat all over the founders' graves. It seems we still have a few to go.
So, Newsweek now has chosen to applaud and embrace torture as officlal American policy. The decline and fall of America's once proud journalistic tradition may be complete.
I am informing everyone I know that Newsweek embraces values that have more in common with Nazi Germany and the Gestapo than with America's honorable tradition of the rule of law and individual rights. I am encouraging everyone with a subscription to cancel it immediately in protest. Shame on all of you.
Geoffrey Wittig, M.D.
Well said.
However, I am not going to hold the entire magazine responsible for the writings of two jabbering Nazis.
We need to gain control of our Miltary again and rebuild our way of life and values of living. Not cancel our magazine subs. We can't judge legal citizens from were they come from, and if we, the citizens of the US, have not done anything wrong, we do not belong in any type of prison what so ever.
I wonder how many Americans will die on US soil in the next few years because the Democrats took away by constitutional right to life by giving terrorists the ability to attack. They are going to take away the guns, real and symbolic, of Americans and give them to the terrorists.
"They are going to take away the guns, real and symbolic, of Americans and give them to the terrorists. "
HELL YEAH! THEN THEY'RE ALL GOING TO SIT DOWN TO AN ABORTION SANDWICH! YUM YUM!
Bush and Cheney had one goal on there mind after we were violently and ruthlessly attacked on our own soil and that was, not to appease the Congress or the ACLU . who as we speak is paying for Lawyers to protect the very same Terriost they put in prison, Their objective surely was not to make the Liberal socialist loving Media or even the Unitted Nations, who has hated the USA long befor Bush came around. No the only thing they had on their minds was to keep every American safe , even the ones who hate him today, and they achieved their goal .My family and I would like to tell both of them thank you from the bottom of our heart and may God bless you and yours forever. For those of you who have fell into the medias trap and turned against the very people who protected you for eight years , heres one thing you should think about . If they would of let their gaurd down and let a terriost attack happen in this country ,mabey the people that would of been killed would have been you our you children, then you would have a reason to hate them . Just a thought but Im sure glad its not the ACLU keeping my family safe.
Well said and spot on! Frankly, if the ACLU (American Communist Leftover Union) is screaming about something, then it must be a good thing and let's do more of it!
Does that include their cases on gun ownership?
Go peddle your gut wrenching fear to the cowards at freerepublic.com.
That is well said. Incidentally, when people talk about torturing at Guantanamo there is one form of torture that was considered but it was discarded. Have the GITMO POWs read posts by Harley. Having to read anything written by Harley would definitely be a violation of the Geneva Convention.
AS a Hawk I feel we have not done enough to the people who are formiting terror throughout the World.
Right. So we impeach the bastard? We only have 6 days.
to Catspaw......why do you think our military is out of control? it is only doing what ordered to do by civilian authority. What do you see differently?
The Military should realize when orders need to be disobeyed. To gain control, is to have the individuals to know when to say NO.
I know it sounds strange, but think about what true control of our country is. The ability to take a different path, but to treat ALL with the same values no matter what, no matter where they live in this world. How they treated prisoners of War was wrong, and the the military should of taken control and said NO we will not go against the values of our country.
"The Military should realize when orders need to be disobeyed. "
Oh, that would never cause problems.
response to Geoff Wittig's comment
Is'nt great how we (americans) are compared to the Nazi's. Yup we are no better then the Gestopo, trampling all over peoples rights. What a joke. Geoff pull you head out of the sand. If we were like the Nazi's all people from Arab decent would be in camps right now sucking down cyanide gas in concrete showers. Thank god that we had a president that did everything in his power (including the wrong things) to stop another attack on America. Hopefully the incoming president share's the same willingness to protect all of America.
Al Holmgren
Well said, Al, and right on. Evidently, all of these limp-wristed lefties would happily stand on principal while American citizens are attacked and slaughtered.
"Evidently, all of these limp-wristed lefties would happily stand on principal "
And you right wingnuts have no principles. Your point?
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