God and the Oath of Office

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  • Posted By: dversch @ 01/13/2009 1:57:53 PM

    I have an idea how we can help the economy and at the same time put theists and atheists on equal footing. How about we start forcing religious institutions to pay property taxes to the municipalities they are located in just like the rest of us? Imagine how much extra cash could be generated to help the poor, whom these very organizations claim to always want to help? Residents and businesses in every municipality are currently forced to pay more than their fair share of the tax burden to make up for the fact that some of the largest properties in their city or town generate no tax revenue whatsoever, because religious organizations are exempt from paying property taxes. I'd be more than happy to agree to let the president say "God" when he takes the oath of office if he agreed to force those block-long churches and temples in my town to pay their taxes based on the size of their lot just like I have to so I wouldn't have to pay so much. I'd gladly pump the money I saved back into the economy. It's only fair, isn't it? An alternative would be to allow me to start an Atheist Academy, buy a 40,000 square foot building to hold my meetings, and not charge me a penny in property tax. I'm OK with either alternative, as I am an open minded free thinker.

    • Posted By: Atohanie @ 01/13/2009 2:10:22 PM

      Um, you can set up an Atheist academy, and qualify for tax-exempt status if you show you're a non-profit or charitable organization. Religion has nothing to do with it.

      • Posted By: dversch @ 01/13/2009 2:58:53 PM

        Are you serious? Do you really believe that all those gigantic, ornate buildings belong to organizations that are non-profit? I wish I was that "non-profitable"!

    • Posted By: dversch @ 01/13/2009 2:44:26 PM

      Are you serious? Do you really believe that all those gigantic, ornate buildings belong to organizations that are non-profit? I wish I was that "non-profitable"!

  • Posted By: longst @ 01/13/2009 1:39:33 PM

    Look if you don't want religion used go to a country that supports your views. This country's history is LADEN with God. Including the Constitiution!! So if you don't like it you should travel back in time to Communist Russia in the 50's or anywhere else but here. Because in this country: In God we Trust.

    • Posted By: markmier @ 01/13/2009 2:54:16 PM

      You might want to re-read the Consititution. There is not a single mention of "God", "heaven", "Jesus" or "father" in it.

    • Posted By: boneclinkz @ 01/13/2009 2:03:30 PM

      Yeah, but the ACLU is pretty good at what it does. Guess what? You're losing in the courts. :)

  • Posted By: 1Blackcitizen! @ 01/12/2009 11:52:46 PM

    Religious fundamentalists?.......You mean those wild-eyed fanatical shrieking, victims, er MUSLIMS, that want to kill us, who practice that religion called Islam, that means peace? Those religious fundamentalists? This country was based on Judeo-Christian ethics, y'know, thou shalt steal, murder, bear false witness(lie) etc. not pluralism. Funny reading that a ONE WORLD ORDER person, like yourself, there Lisa speaking of, what was that?.........Pluralism? Give me a break!

    • Posted By: logres @ 01/13/2009 12:35:06 PM

      I've read the Koran, and it does not promote peace.

      Unless you've read it yourself, you shouldn't speak out of ignorance.

      • Posted By: markmier @ 01/13/2009 2:40:37 PM

        Kinda like the Bible? Oh wait, but the Bible does promote peace, except when it doesn't... kinda like the Koran.

  • Posted By: S. Heriger @ 01/13/2009 2:40:15 PM

    By the way, cresentdave...in attacking Christians so rudely in your posts, you hardly come across as the voice of reason or restraint. You actually sound far more inflexible, judgmental and biased than the people you're attacking for supposedly being inflexible, judgmental and biased. It's the pot calling the kettle black. Just a thought...

  • Posted By: Prayer @ 01/13/2009 2:20:42 PM

    Those who want to take prayer away, should just not listen. I, for one, stand for a good christian prayer.

    • Posted By: crescentdave @ 01/13/2009 2:30:40 PM

      Then stand in a church and listen to prayer. Stand in your house, or out on the street and listen to prayer. Don't bring it into a legal, secular oath of office which is clearly defined in the constitution.

  • Posted By: technologist @ 01/12/2009 3:35:38 PM

    The only wall between church and state is the ACLU - self anointed kangaroos.

    Lisa Miller refers to "religious fundamentalism abroad". Ahem. You mean MUSLIMS? She thinks if she controls her language she controls offense. I say cast off this nonsense and speak the darn truth Lisa.

    • Posted By: jsteve7 @ 01/13/2009 2:27:21 PM

      Honesty is good. Let's look at the honesty here from a typical Kmart Kristian nut job. By his/her logic, the ACLU is the only thing currently separating the church and the state. Take away the ACLU and the church and state are one. That's the F-ing problem you moron. But I do appreciate the honesty.

  • Posted By: crescentdave @ 01/13/2009 2:26:16 PM

    'd hate for anyone, especially the president, at an inauguration, not to have the ability to add words to the constitutionally defined oath of office. That would be so, so ... legal. I believe we should always wrap ourselves in the robes of christianity, because, after all, it's the "one true religion." Those Islamo-Fascists must be put in their place and only the soldiers of Christ can bring that about. We're so different. They believe in the wrong god.

    In other breaking news ... Jesus fails at bringing peace to the Middle East, fails at solving world hunger, fails at abolishing human rights violations and fails at lifting us out of our economic crisis. Oh ... that's right ... all failures are attributed to human beings. But let's include prayers to one version of god in a secular ceremony. It's so helpful on a completely mythic level.

  • Posted By: S. Heriger @ 01/13/2009 2:09:21 PM

    "People pray. Sometimes in public. Deal with it."

    I like that, even though I'm a Christian who supports separation of church and state. Why? Because politics always corrupts true faith...always. There is no more dangerous scenario than operating on the assumption that God supports your political actions, or favors one group of believers over another.

    As one wag has noted in the past, "Mixing religion and politics is like mixing ice cream and manure. You destroy the ice cream, but have no noticeable impact on the manure, which ends up none the worse for wear."

    With that said, we should keep in mind that the Constitution doesn't promise to keep people from being exposed to religion, but only that it won't use its powers to favor one over the other. It promises freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. Big difference.

    And with that thought in mind, any Christian should be comfortable with the ceremonies including a Muslim cleric, a Buddhist, a Rabbi, or whatever...anything less is hypocrisy, as another poster has already noted.

    • Posted By: Mendrol @ 01/13/2009 2:21:29 PM

      "With that said, we should keep in mind that the Constitution doesn't promise to keep people from being exposed to religion, but only that it won't use its powers to favor one over the other. It promises freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. Big difference."

      Okay, so here's the point I'm trying to make on this chat: you say the government won't use its powers to favor one religion over the other(s). But most Christians THINK that means the government won't favor Catholicism over Protestantism, Baptism, or whatever. That's a false choice: regardless of what Denomination a given person is, his RELIGION is still Christian. Making the choice not to have government emphasize one DENOMINATION over another still puts non-Christians in a position of having government tell them that their religious views are wrong. That's not fair.

  • Posted By: S. Heriger @ 01/13/2009 2:15:50 PM


    In support of bkrummel...I'm a Christian who has a number of close friends who are atheists, and we respect each other's beliefs, even while enjoying some lively diiscussions on the subject. i personally know many atheists who are actually more moral and non-judgmental than many Christians I know, even though one of the core tenets of Christianity demand we don't judge others. If people refers to themselves as Christians but don't live up to the standards set by Christ, then they should expect to encounter accusations of hypocrisy, and rightly so.

  • Posted By: crescentdave @ 01/13/2009 2:13:14 PM

    I'd hate for anyone, especially the president, at an inauguration, not to have the ability to add words to the constitutionally defined oath of office. That would be so, so ... legal. I believe we should always wrap ourselves in the robes of christianity, because, after all, it's the "one true religion." Those Islamo-Fascists must be put in their place and only the soldiers of Christ can bring that about.

    In other breaking news ... Jesus fails at bringing peace to the Middle East, fails at solving world hunger, fails at abolishing human rights violations and fails at lifting us out of our economic crisis. Oh ... that's right ... all failures are attributed to human beings. But let's pray to God, he'll never let us down.

  • Posted By: bonniejane @ 01/13/2009 1:56:14 PM

    I'm just disapointed in society that they've come to the conclusion that God is not part of our every day lives. And I'm sick and tired of these atheists that have the audacity to call themselves an atheist. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me. Athiests belive in absoutely nothing. So tell me, why do you even care what's said or if we belive in God. I don't think an Athiest should have the legal right to file any kind of lawsuit about any religion. You belive in nothing so you really have nothing to complain about then. Obviously something is scaring you.

    • Posted By: bkrummel @ 01/13/2009 2:09:04 PM

      There's nothing wrong with Atheist. We simply believe that their is no God(s). Note that this is a belief, as it can neither be proven or disproven. Many Atheist believe in good morals, such as respecting others and being honest. We are interested in science and other intellectual pursuits. We have jobs and work hard. We have families and love them. We do believe in things and live good, fulfilled lives, just without god. There is nothing wrong with anyone who lives this way.

      I don't get your comment about being sick of "atheists that have the audacity to call themselves an atheist". Do you have a problem with astronauts that have the audacity to call themselves astronauts? If you are referring to Atheist that behave as religious fanatics, fair enough. They are hypocrites, though not all Atheist are like them. But I am an Atheist and will call myself such.

  • Posted By: Atohanie @ 01/13/2009 2:08:56 PM

    This case will fail, as the government will not tell anyone they must or must not pray, or follow any religion or philosophy. Yes, our founding fathers were religious, but they did not all have the same religious beleifs. I am sure there have been a good number who didn't believe in God, or did and didn't attend any specific church, just as there were some who were very religious. We cant base our laws on what they would have done, as they would have spent years arguing (just as we do now).

    The inaguration is a government function, but its organizers are not. They are people, just like us. Aside from the oath given in the Constitution, they can do whatever they feel like doing. That's their right.

  • Posted By: amzimbler @ 01/13/2009 2:04:18 PM

    ...what scares me, and I am not an atheist, are people who are so oblivious to the beliefs of others. Millions of reasonable, right minded people in this country practice religion privately -- the way it is meant to be practiced -- not through public displays of piety. People who constantly need validation their religious beliefs are being practiced by everyone are scared...holding on to the tired philosophy that the United States is solely a Christian nation...such nonsense.

  • Posted By: dversch @ 01/13/2009 1:43:03 PM

    How hypocritical all you so-called "believers" are. You're all so quick to defend your right to have YOUR religiious beliefs printed on money, displayed in courthouses, taught in our schools, etc. I wonder how loud your opposition would be if someone suddenly decided that the dollar bill should have "Happy Kwansah" or "Happy Hanukkah" printed on it? I think we'd suddenly see that your idea of being free to express one's religious is limited only to those who express YOUR religious beliefs..

    • Posted By: bkrummel @ 01/13/2009 1:52:48 PM

      Hypocritical? Look in the mirror.

      No, I think Optomyst is essentially correct.

  • Posted By: optomyst @ 01/13/2009 1:41:16 PM

    Most all religions believe in God. How you, as an individual, view God is your own business. However by saying "So help me God" no one is forcing religion on anyone. This nation was founded on the principles of God (I dislike saying Christianity, because that is selective). Whether you God is imaginary, a statue, or a totem pole makes no difference. To invoke God's help in all things is universal and should not be omitted. These crackpots show their problems through these frivolous lawsuits. He is obviously insecure about his own existence to want to deny other people THEIR rights.

  • Posted By: pdnelson01 @ 01/13/2009 11:30:00 AM

    Since when does a Christian minister saying a public prayer have anything to do with the kind of religious fundamentalism that you are invoking? You confuse fundamentalism with fanaticism, and religion with spirituality. I guess I just don't see how Christians like Rich Warren are tearing apart the threads of our society and provide a legitimate threat to the "safety" of our country. Now if Warren were calling for the murder of "infidels" around the world you might have something there. At it is, however, this is a classic case of a "straw man." The statement that "pluralism and moderation" have "made this country great" also begs the question. The author writes with a tremendous amount of bias. I don't mind that the author makes the argument, but she should be more honest in her attempt next time.

    • Posted By: scotty.reynolds@gmail.com @ 01/13/2009 1:30:43 PM

      I agree completely. The statement about pluralism and moderation making this country great was not supported with a single fact.

  • Posted By: markeprice @ 01/13/2009 12:29:53 PM

    Separation of Church and State does not mean there should be a separation of State and God. Freedom of religion doesn't mean we should be free of religion, in fact, that idea promotes the embracing of religion and the value it provides to the American family. Mark Price, Sibley, MO

    • Posted By: PReed1962 @ 01/13/2009 12:38:03 PM

      I disagree. The separation of church and state DOES mean the separation of state and church. Freedom of religion means freedom to be free of religion if one so chooses. I do not choose to have a religion and my beliefs should not be subjugated to yours because you belive in god and I don't.

      • Posted By: scotty.reynolds@gmail.com @ 01/13/2009 1:11:22 PM

        But what you are saying is that I should be subject to your beliefs to remove God. Athiesm is as much on faith as Christianity is since neither can be scientifically proven. Your faith is yours and mine is mine. It is impossible in a public setting to avoid having someones beliefs, preferences or otherwise imposed on us. I choose not to smoke, but if I'm in a public outdoor space, a smoker can impose his belief in smoking on me. I'm oppressed.

        • Posted By: PReed1962 @ 01/13/2009 1:29:05 PM

          No I am afraid you misunderstand me. I am an agnostic. I have not religion. We all believe certain things; that does not mean we all have religous beliefs. That being said; I do not want to remove your right to believe or say anything you want to in public or in private. If you are my elected official or a public servant acting in a public capacity, I repectfully ask that you keep your religion out of it. I do not want to hoist my "beliefs" on anyone. Just don't assume we all believe as you do.

  • Posted By: therealtrue @ 01/13/2009 1:09:49 PM

    reality it's the more us turn back from god the worts the country will be, is not religion its a lyfestile, no one can't understand that untill you lived, one nation under god.

    • Posted By: dversch @ 01/13/2009 1:19:16 PM

      Spoken like a true believer!

    • Posted By: boneclinkz @ 01/13/2009 1:16:12 PM

      Worts sounds really bad, I don't want this country to get them :(

  • Posted By: peacetoyou @ 01/13/2009 12:39:56 PM

    It should be the choice of whoever is being sworn in to the presidency. (and holy crap are you ignorant, logres. divorce rates are the same across the board.) just because a person goes to church does not make them more moral than one who does not. There are plenty of church-going hypocrites, rapers, murderers, child abusers, thiefs, etc.

    • Posted By: boneclinkz @ 01/13/2009 1:13:36 PM

      For example: the guy who dressed up as Santa Claus during the recent holidays and shot a pre-teen girl in the face, then went on to massacre a bunch of other people... He was a regular usher at his local Catholic church, and had just gone through a nasty divorce. :)

  • Posted By: Facilitator of God @ 01/13/2009 12:07:57 PM

    President Obama should state "so help me God" because if he actually asks God for help, God will guide him while he is in office. We are about to see the rapture of the church soon. Israel and the Gaza Strip is the start of the shaking of this world and will escalate to the rapture, antichrist rising, and return of Christ with all the church back to earth after seven years of severe tribulation. Obama will most likely become born again through this time period. Right now he needs to seek out the Lord and become reborn, but it will not happen until the tribulation. The United States of America was founded on a Christian platform that was truly under God' s helping hand. Look how it prospered so long. Look at us now when the powers of darkness are trying to get less and less of God in our government. Our country should be backing Israel completely because they are the apple of God's eye. Obama will be better off to get reborn as soon as possible as well as all others, that really need Jesus.

    Facilitator of God

    • Posted By: dversch @ 01/13/2009 1:12:54 PM

      Let's hear about how wonderful your life is, since you apparently ask "God" for help constantly. Don't give us any mumbo-jumbo either. Let's hear how you're doing in this life, right now. My guess is you're a sad, lonely loser, blaming all of your negative experiences on "Satan", rather than your own shortcomings, stupidity, and/or laziness, who places all your hopes of ever having a postive life experience in ascending to heaven, or some other far-fetched, ridiculous, contrived out of desparation, destination filled with everything you can't have here . Sound familiar?

    • Posted By: Libricrat @ 01/13/2009 12:29:23 PM

      You scare me.

      • Posted By: logres @ 01/13/2009 1:03:27 PM

        You scare me.

        What's your point?

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