God and the Oath of Office

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  • Posted By: ttlms @ 01/23/2009 11:03:01 AM

    This is one instance in which it is preferable to avoid the nontextual phrase "separation of church and state" and, instead, distinguish the two clauses of the First Amendment that, together, comprise its religious freedom guarantees. Both the constitutional text of the oath and the religious test clause of the Sixth Article make clear that the phrase "so help me God" is not required to be uttered by the President; thus, there is no mandatory act to violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. President Obama wanted to say "So help me God" at the end of the oath. To PREVENT him from doing so would have violated the Exercise Clause. The remaining question is whether the President's utterance of "So help me God" would violate the Establishment Clause. Under the Lemon test, however, it is not even clear that President Obama's words constitute a governmental action, much less one having the primary act of advancing religion, rather than a personal prayer for guidance and strength.

  • Posted By: sms29s66 @ 01/23/2009 5:58:30 AM

    So, the mere fact that you can't explain something is evidence of god?

  • Posted By: lightningz @ 01/22/2009 8:17:29 PM

    OH you might what prof also to the unknowens this is just bugs nad plants theres other things unknowen
    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE7D81F30F931A1575AC0A964958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

  • Posted By: lightningz @ 01/22/2009 8:08:30 PM

    "Posted By: sms29s66 @ 01/22/2009 6:42:01 PM It is up to the person who claims something exists to prove that it is so. And you can't do it with circular arguments. "The Bible tells me so" is a circular argument."
    i am not having a argument but i can see your trying to make one. What i was trying to says he had no prof nor do you in anything you have said. your word and his word alone in don't mean a thing it what ever that person whats to be real. My fight was not about god but the way he acted to others in a whole. I am just saying Atheists as a whole sould keep there beleaf to themselfs they may till others who they or but they how ever have no right to get on people no mather how many or few gods they beleave in. If it makes one fill good not to fill alone and beleaving that there is so much more to this world then anyone can truly see. New things or found every year thats been around but no one said anything about till they studyed it. and learned that no one else out of millions of others did not care to under stand it or even name the plant or bug. Atheists in a whole think man can explain everything on there own. but theres over 40millions unknowens just on earth alone. so why do you think there can be no god.

  • Posted By: sms29s66 @ 01/22/2009 6:42:01 PM

    It is up to the person who claims something exists to prove that it is so. And you can't do it with circular arguments. "The Bible tells me so" is a circular argument.

  • Posted By: lightningz @ 01/22/2009 2:44:55 PM

    "Aren't you a little dubious about these last words from famous people? The older I get, the more suspicious I get about anything that I didn't see or hear myself. And even if a person has doubts on his deathbed (or wishful thinking) that does not prove the existence of anything other than his own doubts or wishful thinking. And Christians can quote the Bible until they are blue in the face. That doesn't make it so. That's what they don't seem to grasp. Atheists do not recognize the Bible as authoritative."
    who care you saying god is not real is wishful thinking also. saying thers no god don't make it so eather.. so you can also say theres no god till you die it don't make it so eather.

  • Posted By: MichaelX @ 01/22/2009 10:09:28 AM

    Had to check this out. Where do you wingnuts come from?
    THE discussion is the verity of saying the words. Do, or don't, it does not matter a whit.
    Your digressions into futile discourse of subjects obviously unknown to you is a riot.
    Get on with your life, it matters more.

    • Posted By: sms29s66 @ 01/22/2009 10:57:26 AM

      Verity means truth. Your comment doesn't make any sense. What are you trying to say?

  • Posted By: sms29s66 @ 01/22/2009 10:01:09 AM

    Aren't you a little dubious about these last words from famous people? The older I get, the more suspicious I get about anything that I didn't see or hear myself. And even if a person has doubts on his deathbed (or wishful thinking) that does not prove the existence of anything other than his own doubts or wishful thinking. And Christians can quote the Bible until they are blue in the face. That doesn't make it so. That's what they don't seem to grasp. Atheists do not recognize the Bible as authoritative.

  • Posted By: darincoveyjc@cox.net @ 01/21/2009 10:37:09 PM

    Some Last Words of Famous Dying Atheists on Their Death Beds...Thomas Payne: "Stay with me, for God's sake; I cannot bear to be left alone ... O Lord, help me! O God, what have I done to suffer so much? What will become of me hereafter?"
    Sir Thomas Scott: "Until this moment I thought there was neither a God nor a hell. Now I know and feel that there are both, and I am doomed to perdition by the just judgment of the Almighty."
    Voltaire: "I am abandoned by God and man; I will give you half of what I am worth if you will give me six months' life." (He said this to Dr. Fochin, who told him it could not be done.) "Then I shall die and go to hell!"

    • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 01/22/2009 9:21:11 AM

      Some Last Words of Famous Dying Atheists on Their Death Beds...

      Thomas Payne:
      Which person are you talking about?
      Thomas Paine the Founding Father? If so he was a self-defined Deist, not an Atheist. He believed in God but not in Jesus or the bible. In fact in his book The Age of Reason he wrote "that the only true religion is Deism, by which I then meant, and mean now, the belief of one God,"



      Sir Thomas Scott
      If you are talking about the High Sheriff of Kent it is possible that he was an atheist.




      Voltaire
      Voltaire was not an Atheist. He was a deist. He even had a chapel on his esaate in Ferney. He was a critic of organized religion and a severe critic of the Catholic Church which is why many people called him an Atheist.



      Most of the famous people that make such statements on their beds were not atheists but deists. That is a big difference.

      And even if a few atheist changed their minds, that in no way means that all or most do. As I have said in other posts, I know of many atheists who never doubted their convictions even while under fire in war (thereby debunking the lie of "no atheists in foxholes".)

      Your post proves nothing about atheists in general. Only about possibly ONE specific atheist (Scott).

      And a freind told me about being with his cousin who had been a very religious Christian all his life, who as he lay dying said "Screw God and Jesus". So it can go both ways. Individuals can change their minds but that says NOTHING about the general belief construct.

  • Posted By: lightningz @ 01/21/2009 11:51:49 PM

    ii aslo got some pages from the 1200s bibles
    http://lightning-z.com/images/luke2056.jpg

  • Posted By: lightningz @ 01/21/2009 11:39:37 PM

    Oh in 1546
    Revelation 9 1546
    1 and the fifth Angel posaunte: and I saw a star that fell from heaven on the earth, and he was the key to the fountain, where the abyss.

    Revelation 9 1550
    and the fifth Angel esalpisen eidon star and ex peptokota uranium in the earth and edothi afto the closure of the gulf well

    Revelation 9 1701
    AND zatrabi as fifth angel, I saw a star fallen to earth from heaven, which is a key of the bottomless pit.

    Revelation 9 1880 Greek
    and the fifth Angel esalpisen eidon star and ex peptokota uranium in the earth and edothi afto the closure of the gulf well

    Revelation 9 1960
    The fifth angel sounded, and saw a star that fell from heaven to earth and was given the key to the pit of the abyss.
    Revelation 9 1980
    1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss

  • Posted By: lightningz @ 01/21/2009 11:30:39 PM

    someone e-mai lme asking about where in the bible this is at.

    1 AND zatrabi as fifth angel, I saw a star fallen to earth from heaven, which is a key of the bottomless pit.
    it was removed in the 1950s it was Revelation 9 then was repleaced by
    1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss

  • Posted By: lightningz @ 01/21/2009 11:17:01 PM

    OH one more thing tell me what bible you what it from and what year of bible you what it from. I got bibles all the way back to the 1400s yea old but i got every bible after this date also and all releases till 2009. Also i have other holy books besides the bible just tell me the name of what what you what it from i will scan if needed

    1 AND zatrabi as fifth angel, I saw a star fallen to earth from heaven, which is a key of the bottomless pit.
    ???????????????????? 9

  • Posted By: lightningz @ 01/21/2009 11:06:12 PM

    again wheres your prof i now showen you prof to everything you have asked but everything i have asked you give me none. if your so smart show me prof

  • Posted By: lightningz @ 01/21/2009 10:42:03 PM

    Romans 1:18-32 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man???and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."

  • Posted By: lightningz @ 01/21/2009 10:28:25 PM

    Atheism is defined by Webster's New World Dictionary as, "1. the belief that there is no God, or denial that God or gods exist. 2. godlessness". An atheist, therefore, is a person who believes that there is no God. But what does the Bible say?
    The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

    PSALMS XIV:I

    Atheism is a belief system that ardently denies the existence of God. God calls the atheist a FOOL. Many atheists spend much time and effort attempting to "disprove" that God exists. According to Romans chapter 1 they know that He exists, but they want to control their own lives and not submit to the Lord. They are actually rather tragic figures just like any other unsaved individual. It is hard to live out their atheism--if they did, they'd actually be considered crazy like O'Hair was.

    The atheist's RELIGION (which is simply a system of beliefs based on a philosophy) of atheism is simply a way to try to block out and override the truth--the ol' ostrich-head-in-the-sand technique:

    If you try to tell 'em the truth, they say "Shut up!"
    stick their heads in the ground and shout--
    "There's nobody there,
    there's nobody there,
    there's nobody there, I tell you!
    See, I can't see 'em!"

  • Posted By: lightningz @ 01/21/2009 7:20:57 PM

    read http://www.theobserver.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1392581&auth=JESSE%20J.%20HOLLAND,%20THE%20ASSOCIATED%20PRESS then goto msn and look for it also it will not even be heard. So yea prof again wheres yours

    • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 01/21/2009 9:00:30 PM

      Did you bother to read what I said. I specifcally said the US Supreme Court.

      I had read teh Washingotn Post Article on Walton's ruling as well as the actual ruling that Walton made.

      Note that in the article that you posted a link to, the Federal Judge said that :

      "he didn't have the authority to order Obama not to say the words, saying the president-elect had a right to free speech. The judge also questioned whether he had the authority to give the chief justice an order not to say "so help me God" after the oath. "

      That means that that Specific Judge did not feel he had the authority, not that the Supreme Court does not.

      Additionally to quote the article:
      "Walton also complained about the lateness of the filing, saying that there was not enough time to get the case litigated and appealed before next week's inauguration. He did not throw the case out, however, instead only refusing to stop the inauguration."

      Therfore he did not say that the case was invalid or that the claim was invalid Only that he felt there was not enough time to adjudicate it properly (both for him to hear it and for it to go through the Appeals process). That is a very different thing than saying that the case had no merit or that given time that Newdow's claims would not have been found correct.

      That is the reason I woudl prefer a new case, without Newdow, be started now so that there would be time to let it wind its way through the Court system and be able to get to the Supreme Court.

      The Supreme Court has the only authority makes the final decision on this issue not a US District Judge. And note that I said "the issue" not Newdow's case. The issue has not gone away and is not yet resolved.


  • Posted By: lightningz @ 01/21/2009 7:25:45 PM

    The few times that I have even come close to "jumping on someone" when they mentioned god was when a poster made attacks on atheists.

    The first time was was on 1/16 when the psoter AS I SEE IT posted:
    "Atheist can go to HELL. We'll go to HEAVEN. GOD IS !!!"
    attacks on atheists where in his post he just saying what the bible says. he was not hitting you or killing any atheists was he? words or words that was not a attack on any group its what the "Bible says" The word of god and all fellows sould bring them views up. they or only trying to save your soul. you could of just not even replyed to him so you attacked him first for what he beleaves in.

    • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 01/21/2009 8:48:11 PM

      "attacks on atheists where in his post he just saying what the bible says."
      Exaclty where in teh bible are the EXACT words "Atheists can go to hell".

      "words or words that was not a attack on any group its what the "Bible says""
      Well my words were just words so I was not attacking him either. You cannot have it both ways. The bible has been used throughout history to attack people and as the catalyst for physical attacks.

      " The word of god and all fellows sould bring them views up. they or only trying to save your soul. you could of just not even replyed to him so you attacked him first for what he beleaves in."

      You believe it is gods words, many do not. I was just saying what I believed in (your words) which I have as much right to as he did.

  • Posted By: lightningz @ 01/21/2009 7:11:37 PM

    sms29s66 what hole there no hole for me nore constition lover. he can fight all he whats it don't make a hole i can also still no hole. grow up then join the fight till now sit down.

  • Posted By: lightningz @ 01/21/2009 2:47:11 PM

    also sms29s66 i am one person who know how to spell and know grammer. I just don't like taking time to type things out. or even reword them. I got a job that i do that for and when i am at home i don't care how i spell what or where the words go. Also alot of people can't spell or know grammer. IT how don't mean there fight is any less of value. Or that they or anyless of a person. Look at bush he was in the white house he know nothing on grammer or how to talk right.

    • Posted By: sms29s66 @ 01/21/2009 6:29:59 PM

      I rest my case. Every time you post, you dig your hole even deeper.

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