God and the Oath of Office

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  • Posted By: coby456 @ 01/13/2009 12:09:05 PM

    funnymatt,

    Your comment shows a sincere lack of insightful thought. Just as you choose to refuse to vote for candidates who invoke religion, there are many others who look at faith as a significant determining factor. I can see your comment for what it truly is, and that is flame bait. Separation of church and state is not defined in the Constitution. Our founding fathers conceived of this nation as a place where everyone can choose to worship PUBLICLY and without persecution in the manner they see fit so long as it is within the confines of established law. There is nothing to prevent the President from saying his oath as he sees fit. It's shocking to me how many atheists are MORE intolerant than the religious and your comment, while probably not genuine, illustrates this point perfectly. The idea that you have freedom FROM religion over freedom of religion is erroneous. I don't know what you mean by true thinkers and philosophers as some of the greatest of these are religious as well, but the beauty of America is that everyone can contribute. The idea that any one group should be cast out or have their views sacrificed because of religious beliefs is the entire reason our country was established. Here is hoping that your comment was insincere at best...

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 01/14/2009 10:40:19 AM

      Actually the idea that he can say the oath as he sees fit is wrong. He is ONLY allowed to say the oath as written. The Oath does not say "so help me god" Now I would argue that if he wants to add those words (after a clear pause to esatblish that the words are HIS and NOT the LAW's or the Constitution's, tha tis fine. But the Chief Justice is NOT allowed to promtp those words as his job is to prompt ONLY the Oath.

      As for the prayers, those may in fact be illegal.

      Also, freedom FROM religion is part of the idea of freedom OF relgion. You are gauranttted your right to practice yoru religion as you see fit as long as it does not infringe on my right to not practice it or ot practice another religion. That means that you can practice it in your home, or in your house of worship however you want. But once you go onto the street you are subject to limits. You are not allowed to force the laws to follow your religion.

      If the primary reason for a law is relgious belief then that law is invalid. Now if a law that has many valid non-religious reasons also happens to follow one's relign that is fine, but hte religion is NOT a valid reason for the law.

  • Posted By: mhecks07 @ 01/14/2009 10:35:31 AM

    I can understand why you would want to keep religion out of something such as policy, but I think it's ridiculous that people like Newdow make such a big deal over the invocation of something that he personally may not believe in something such as an event. It shows a great level of disrespect to try and have everything turned around to fit one view. I myself believe in God, but I do not push for everyone to except my views. The things that Newdow does would affect all Americans and show disrespect to those who do believe.

  • Posted By: japauls @ 01/13/2009 12:08:46 PM

    FunnyMatt I pray for you and all that Don't believe that there is a GOD. You say this Country is lost because of the religious people. We are lost because you don't believe. He should and every official needs to say God and continue to pray for this Country. Remember evry Knee will bow and Every tounge will confess that Jesus is Lord. Even you.

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 01/14/2009 10:31:38 AM

      Horsehockey.

  • Posted By: obvious @ 01/13/2009 12:03:10 PM

    All this mindless bantering about whether Obama should be able to say "so help me god"...like it makes any difference. There is no god, except the one created in people's minds. Humans have an uncanny and inate ability to belive in religions that just are not true. I've never met an truly honest and intelligent believer, cause if they were truly honest and intelligent, they wouldn't be a believer.

    • Posted By: Facilitator of God @ 01/13/2009 12:12:47 PM

      You really need to surch your own heart out and ask our God to save your worthless soul. All of have worhtless souls, by the way, until we believe in the true God Jesus Christ. I can testify that I have actually heard God speak into my spirit. He is real and he loves you personally too. He told me to tell you this.

      Facilitator of God

      • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 01/14/2009 10:30:57 AM

        Wow, where did you get your hallucinagens?

        They must be strong.

        No god to know.

      • Posted By: obvious @ 01/13/2009 12:24:50 PM

        Don't walk, but run! to the nearest mental hospital. The place is full of people hearing voices...you should fit in fine

        • Posted By: logres @ 01/13/2009 1:04:14 PM

          No hatred, huh?

          Typical hypocrit.

          • Posted By: skankuser @ 01/13/2009 5:48:05 PM

            But it's perfectly alright to call people worthless, right Logres?

            If anyone is a damn hypocrite, it's you.

      • Posted By: dversch @ 01/13/2009 1:00:03 PM

        And I thought no one did LSD any more...

  • Posted By: EJRuff @ 01/13/2009 11:57:11 AM

    By the same token "sepeartion of church and state," is also a 20th century phenomenon. No where does the Constitution mention this phrase. This phrase was thrust upon us only recently by a liberal judiciary. The Constitioution merely says that we are free to worship in the religion of our choice.

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 01/14/2009 10:29:30 AM

      Actually you are wwrong. The idea has existed since the Constitution was written. The writers of the Constitution always felt that religion and government should remain separate and that, outside of how the individual might utilize their various religious beliefs as a catalyst to do good, the two were to remaiin apart, for the protection of both.

  • Posted By: mhecks07 @ 01/14/2009 10:28:54 AM

    I don't understand what the big deal is over Obama saying "So help me God" after his oath. One of the first things the founding fathers set up in the Constitution was the freedom of religion for ALL people, including those in government positions. If he wants to invoke the name of God, let him. If he doesn't, then nobody should get so riled up over that either.

  • Posted By: NanaEgyir @ 01/13/2009 11:55:21 AM

    The invocation of God or the divine power is our birthright that honors and glorifies the architect of this blessed life. His invocation at all levels of life reconnects and recharges our battery of life. One simply becomes alienated without asking the creator, the almighty who understands this life in its every step. Seeking him first is the key wisdom that diction this gift of life. The founding fathers connected to this key wisdom and succeeded as clearly invoked on dollar bill" In God we Trust." On our road to governance, we as one nation under God, lost the meaning and proudly became our own Excellencies and not attributing our source of progress and successes to the divine architect, God almighty. As a result, we divided, ruled and seek to be "either with us, or an enemy." Statements and actions like these are divisive in nature and proudly describe us as "Pharaohs." Once again, the compassionate and merciful God has granted us another chance to reconnect to him as one nation under God.

    • Posted By: Libricrat @ 01/13/2009 12:25:55 PM

      How do you know there is a God?

      • Posted By: logres @ 01/13/2009 1:05:34 PM

        How do you know there isn't?

        • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 01/14/2009 10:26:56 AM

          There is no irrefutable proof that he exists outside of the human imagination. That is how. The burden of proof lies ith the affirmative statement and the affirmative staement on this issue is that god exists. No proof, no general existance. (No mind you, since the process of the imagination working causes electrical signals in he brain which can be documented and thereby do exist, that mean that when a person imagines god, god exists, but ONLY inside that person's brain.

        • Posted By: markmier @ 01/13/2009 2:44:07 PM

          How do you know there isn't a tooth fairy?

  • Posted By: knhlaw1 @ 01/13/2009 11:47:38 AM

    Just to clear up "Dave in NM" . I am not a christian or a part of any other religion.

    • Posted By: Facilitator of God @ 01/13/2009 12:16:29 PM

      Believe and have a enternal life. Do not believe and you do not.

      Faciilitor of God

      • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 01/14/2009 10:23:39 AM

        Facilitator of a fiction,

        Belive what you want but once you die it is over. Decay and decompostiion is all tha awaits you. Deal with it.

      • Posted By: skankuser @ 01/13/2009 5:09:25 PM

        HURRRRRRRRR SCARE TACTICS, PASCAL'S WAGER HURRRRRRRR

    • Posted By: Dave in NM @ 01/13/2009 12:00:27 PM

      Um... good for you.

  • Posted By: DrMan @ 01/13/2009 11:39:45 AM

    IIt is everyone's right to pray where they want when they want. Atheists have no right to push their lack of faith on others.

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 01/14/2009 10:22:35 AM

      Actually that is not correct. They can pray PRIVATELY, but in an official government activity (which the innauguration IS), they do not have the right to pray publicly. The primary reason forthe innauguration is the taking of the OAth of Office which REQUIRED upholdsing the US Constitution The prayers can validly be claim to be a violation ofthe Establishment clause. Thereby they may be illegal.

  • Posted By: funnymatt @ 01/13/2009 11:33:29 AM

    Gretal, the are christian fundamentalists promoting terrorism towards this country are IN this country, which is most problematic. Simply see the abortion clinic bombers for examples. The country will continue to have problems until everyone gets religion completely out of politics- it quite simply doesn't belong. I'm an avid atheist (I would say a devout Atheist, but I'm not sure that term applies) and I refuse to vote for any candidates that invoke a mythical being as playing a role in their decision making process. The country is luckily becoming more secular every day, and I have hope that someday in my lifetime we will see a secular majority that can vote out all the religious nuts that currently run things and allow some true thinkers and philosophers to right this ship.

    • Posted By: japauls @ 01/13/2009 12:17:32 PM

      I pray for you,and all non believers. What a pitty, that you say God does not asist. And the great thing about it, God stills gives you life through his Grace and Mercy. You state that True Thinkers should run this ship. Thank God that HE is running the ship. Remember FunnyMatt, that Every KNEE will Bow and EVERY Tounge will confess that Jesus is Lord; EVEN YOU!

      • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 01/14/2009 10:19:58 AM

        " Every KNEE will Bow and EVERY Tounge will confess that Jesus is Lord; EVEN YOU!"

        Not likely. Many of us are way to intellignet to fall for that garbage.

      • Posted By: iamsharper @ 01/13/2009 3:36:24 PM

        Well some plan to wait to have a reason to bow that knee, if that turns out to be bad thing and you are right you will be among the tine group of the favored and the 98% of all people that have ever lived will be standing around with the atheists, the sun and Celtic worshipers and ever other faith than yours that has existed since time began. Even if I KNEW what you believe was true (and I certainly don't) I could never stand with you as the whole thing is so brutally unfair as to be unsupportable. Many have heard your words and rejected them, if I am wrong I will stand with the billions that did not even have the chance of 'redemption; because of the time and place your god chose to bring them into the world.

      • Posted By: dversch @ 01/13/2009 3:06:48 PM

        If HE is running this ship. then HE is running it aground. At least now I have someone to blame.

    • Posted By: logres @ 01/13/2009 12:27:32 PM

      This country was founded by relgious folk.

      If you don't like it, leave and take your hatred and bigotry with you.

      • Posted By: skankuser @ 01/13/2009 5:49:36 PM

        It was founded by mainly Deists, which is a belief in a God that is FAR away from Christianity and organized religion.

        The first European settlers were Puritan Christians. That would be the correct statement.

    • Posted By: Libricrat @ 01/13/2009 12:32:17 PM

      I'm right there with you man.

  • Posted By: rmcfaddin @ 01/12/2009 11:25:19 AM

    History has been and continues to be re-written. There never has been a "wall of separation" of church and state anywhere near the constitution. It is in a letter written to the Danbury Baptisits. In this letter the wall of separation is to keep the government out of the church - not the church out of the government. Notice I used the lowercase "c" in church. There is never to be a national Church.

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 01/14/2009 10:14:07 AM

      Actually it was supposed ot be both ways. Our founding fathers were well aware of thr fact that government always corrupts religion and religion always corrupts government.

  • Posted By: stpauljackson @ 01/10/2009 6:27:48 PM

    This should be Obama's inauguration. In the interest of intellectual freedom and liberty in general, let him do what he wants. If he wants "so help me God," let him. If he wants prayers, let him. He's in charge. Let him exercise his authority. He doesn't need the advice of a journalist or anyone else on this matter.

    Let him do what seems best to him on this occasion.

    • Posted By: ghostmasseur @ 01/14/2009 10:09:54 AM

      "This should be Obama's inauguration."
      It is the country's innauguration, not just Obama's

      "In the interest of intellectual freedom and liberty in general, let him do what he wants. "
      He is taking an oath in which his main obligation is to "Preserve Protect and Defend the Constitution" so he actually doe sNOT get to "do what he wants" if if violates the Constitution. .

      "If he wants "so help me God," let him."
      He does ahve that right as long as it is obvious that it si NOT part of the actual oath.

      " If he wants prayers, let him. He's in charge. Let him exercise his authority."
      No he is not in charge. He bound by the US Constitution. He is prohibittted from violating it. The prayers can be very validly argued as being a clear and absolute violation ofthe Establishment clause. IF that isthe case he is forbidden form having them.

      He doesn't need the advice of a journalist or anyone else on this matter."

    • Posted By: TheGardener @ 01/13/2009 4:20:49 PM

      Yep, let him decide what he feels comfy with. It shows his preferences. But if he has rational substance, he makes an oath without a book.

  • Posted By: zinka @ 01/14/2009 12:43:29 AM

    People need someone or something to believe in. Is there a higher being, who knows. The bible says there is but the bible has been translated many times and things get lost in translation, so who knows what is real and what is not. Having been raised a catholic I have been at both ends. I left the church because they couldn't or did not know how to answer my questions and I got tired of their demands. It is my believe if you believe in yourself you will be fine. You decide your live no one but you and if you want to be believe in something that is up to you. I dislike people who try and push want they believe on someone else, as far as I am concerned what ever you believe in god or not is a private thing and should be kept there. If BO what to say so help me god that is his choice not any one else's. It is his right not yours after all it is his day. Our founding Fathers and their following leaders added things into the speechs, or the oath of office, it is their choice. So what if you don't believe in Santa Claus or any of the others that is your choice but it is not your right to impose that believe on anyone else. You have the right to state your opinion and most of you have. I personaly don't care if he uses iso help me god and long as it stays out of the Office of the President or any other office. You believe in what you will and I will believe in what I wiill and leave everyone else to believe in what they want. As always just my opinion.

    • Posted By: jrchar @ 01/14/2009 1:57:44 AM

      Zinka, you insinuate that I would impose my religious beliefs on others; nothing is further from the truth. I have fought so that you may have yours, by solemnly swearing to "support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic" (Oath of Enlistment). Our Constitution's Bill of Rights (the first 10 Amendments) were incorporated as a protection for minorities (brought forth initially by Rhode Island, fearing a diminution of its citizens' rights due to its small size and representation in the would-be the House of Representatives). The First Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" Essentially, Congress cannot make laws that benefit one religion of another and it cannot prevent one practicing one's own religion. This is why I have no problem with Obama saying a prayer, but I do have a problem with the State (meaning Nation) expending resources on religious persons providing an invocation. The Congress holds the purse strings (allocates money), in particular for this event, through a special fund. The allocation of funds for religious purposes violates the First Amendment of the Constitution. Specifically, while it may benefit (make happy) religious people and thereby provide them with value, it takes those monies away from my benefit. Congress may make such decisions that benefit the many at the expense of the few, but it may not do so on religious grounds (much like your employer may not discriminate against you based on race, gender, religious affiliation). You may ask why I seem to focus so much on something that seems so unimportant to the vast majority of religious persons in America. It is because I do not take the freedoms guaranteed by my nation's constitution which I have sworn, fought, and been disabled to uphold for granted. I do not accept it when they are violated either to my benefit or to my detriment. When government takes a stance that favors religious beliefs over my own, I hope to do my part to uphold the Constitution. Hopefully you see that this should logically make you feel more secure as a Christian and not less secure. As long as there are people like me, you will always have the right to practice your religion, no matter who is in the majority in the future. Please also read Article 6 of the Constitution.

  • Posted By: bonniejane @ 01/13/2009 3:27:58 PM

    For our Brain Surgeon, you may have an IQ of 180, but if you belive in Satan, then you believe in God and you do know that he was cast out of Heaven, surley with that high IQ you know that one.. . Even Satan belives in God . Sometimes maybe we shouldn't brag about our high IQ when we're not so smart or up on what we call a religion. Bless your heart.
    And for you Mendrol, intolerant and insulting, once again, why do you care, obviously your not very smart either, remember, you belive in nothing at all. so why would intolerant and insulting even bother, NOTHING is inflicted on a person that belives in NOTHING . My religious beliefs should bother any one that has no religion at all. Actually I think you people sit around on your duffs thinkg, ok, lets see if we can PO a person of faith off today. And you will, because if you think a person of religion will sit back and not defend their God, whom ever theirs is, you are wrong. Like is said, YOU BELIVE IN NOTHING, NOTHING AT ALL, you continue to tell people of faith and file lawsuits on a daily basis, which should be against the law, what's the lawsuit about, NOTHING!! . No person of faith in Congress or our laws do should never effect you at all, or should I say it again, YOU BELIVE IN NOTHING, so "nothing" should bother you, none of the laws, none of the decissons made in the US, absoutely nothing.. you belive in nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing.. you've said it a 100 thousand times. You proudly confess your religious beliefs over and over. You should have no rights in a court of law to complain about "nothing" when you belive in NOTHING. I think you actually do believe, or you would't you continue to be so defensive about NOTHING...See I can be defensive, I belive. I have a reason to be defensive or voice my opinion, I believe in SOMETHING..

    • Posted By: Mendrol @ 01/13/2009 4:26:20 PM

      Gee, I don't recall insulting anyone (directly) during this conversation. I have been going back and forth with BK for a while, and I sincerely appreciate that BK was the first person to 'defend' me against your attacks, even though we have a disagreement. As for saying I'm not very smart: you've read at least one of my posts, and yet you think I'm an Atheist who believes in nothing, and that I sit around trying to PO people who do have faith?

      I am a priest, and it's one of my responsibilities as such to step up when people like yourself attack my religion. Or any other American's religion, for that matter. I have absolutely no problem with people who have chosen to be Christian; I'm very happy that they have something that gives them comfort. A majority of my friends (similar in proportion to the population at large) are Christians, and we discuss issues of morailty and ethics quite frequently. We just don't try to change each other's religion, and we don't want the government to do it either. My religion has no directive to go forth and convert ANYONE. Why does all of this offend you so much? I'm not trying to change your religion, or change the way you participate in it. But, as I wrote to BK a few minutes ago, there's a lot of evidence of Christians using the government to interfere in the rights of non-Christians, not only to worship freely, but in other important ways, like yanking children out of homes, job discrimination, etc. If the government was doing that to you (and people like you), wouldn't you be scared?

      • Posted By: zinka @ 01/14/2009 12:52:49 AM

        Mendrol you have the right to defend you religion but what gives you the right to take on someone elses religion. Let them defend their religion if they want to. If you came up to me and started on trying to convert me I would wakl away and tell you to keep it to yourself. Yes there are people who discriminate and it is not just for religion. Normally when children are taken from a home they have a reason of course there are exceptions. I dislike bible thumpers and religion pushers very, very, very much. Having been raised catholic I have read bible and believe or not still read the bible do I believe that there is a god, let me say I believe in myself first. As always just my opinion.

    • Posted By: bkrummel @ 01/13/2009 4:07:09 PM

      Firstly, Mendrol does believe in a god, just not the Christian god, as he reminded me (Mendrol, again, my apologies). Atheist like myself also believe something: that there is no god. Okay some people do sit around thinking about POing Christians and they are intolerant. But what about us Atheist and other non-Christians who want to have our religious beliefs, want you to have your religious beliefs, and have no one push their beliefs on anyone else? We can get along and respect each other, right? I respect your belief in God.

  • Posted By: fidelia @ 01/13/2009 6:15:35 PM

    That is what is wrong today in this world, everyone is running around like chickens with their heads cut off because they fail to acknowledge that their is a God. Then we wonder why this world is in such a mess.
    I say leave God where he belongs in the oat.
    Or for sure, there will be a terrible catastophe when we list expect it, and who will be there to protect us? The atheists?

    • Posted By: drupus2 @ 01/13/2009 7:13:34 PM

      Oh? And 'god' will?

      • Posted By: jrchar @ 01/13/2009 10:02:32 PM

        Actually, what is protecting you during catastrophes is a volunteer military, reserve military, and National Guard, as well as a Department of Homeland Security under the mandate of the National Response Framework; this mission is referred to as the Homeland Security mission by DHS, and the Civil Support mission by the Department of Defense. I am, as I stated in a previous post, a special disabled veteran who is an atheist, and I protected you, despite the fact that I believe you are insane for believing in an imaginary/invisible man and for believing that some cosmic Jewish zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. How people holding similar beliefs to you can be allowed to run a country and be close to nuclear weapons, much less drive a car is well beyond me. Nevertheless, do not be confused, its not a god (invisible man) watching your back and taking bullets and bombs for exclusionary religious fascists like you to have the right to speak your nonsense, its atheists like me (as well as good hearted religious people who respect my right to be rational). There is no God, there is no tooth fairy, there is no Santa Claus, just like there is no Easter bunny. Please sell crazy somewhere else.

  • Posted By: Baylisstic71 @ 01/13/2009 8:03:22 PM

    Lots of interesting and heated debate here on this subject and lots of perspectives. A remarkable point we all should be thankful for is that we live in a country where we have freedom of speech and worship. Regardless of one's opinion on this subject, those freedoms should be celebrated and protected.

  • Posted By: drupus2 @ 01/13/2009 7:12:02 PM

    Question: Should Presidents invoke the name of 'god' in their oath to uphold the Constitution?
    Simple answer.....NO!

  • Posted By: awain69 @ 01/13/2009 7:11:32 PM

    By the way, I'm a Wiccan too. Christians claim to be "persecuted" in this country when they can't put the Ten Commandments in the courthouse---well you don't know the meaning of the word persecution until you have been beaten up, reviled, told your children are not allowed to play with the neighbor's children because of the pentacle you wear around your neck, had Children's services called on you because the neighbors don't like your religion, etc. When a Wiccan serviceman cannot be buried with a pentacle on his headstone, when a court decision has to be made in order for the VA to ALLOW the family to have the right (which they're supposed to be guaranteed in the 1st Amendment) to put that pentacle on his headstone, when these things have happened to Christians, then you will have some kind of idea what it means to be persecuted for your beliefs.

    I respect Christians, but find most of the Christians I have come across to be intolerant, narrow minded bigots, who, if they met Christ tomorrow would not recognize their Messiah and probably would crucify him all over again. The intolerant, arrogant attitudes of fundamentalist Christians in particular don't make me want to attend your church, or worship your God. And there is an injunction by Christ that warns Christians that if you offend others and turn them away from Christ that you will be punished for that. Maybe its time for the fundie Christians to assess themselves and find out what it is they are doing that is turning off the greater amount of the population, particularly young people. Read the book "UnChristian." It's written by your own pastors. (www.unchristian.com).

  • Posted By: awain69 @ 01/13/2009 7:01:12 PM

    This world has always been a mess, even when we have fervently included God---according to the Christian fundamentalists, America has always been a Christian nation. Since that has to be true, because they say so, then is God to blame for the mess the evangelicals claim we are in? Why hasn't God bailed us out? Because we're not Christian enough? 89% of the US population belongs to some branch of Christianity. How can we be more pious? Clearly, we have not yet separated ourselves cleanly from our Calvinistic Puritan roots which always blamed the people when bad things happened--"Oh, this happened because we're not Christian enough" or "We didn't pray enough" or whatever. Seriously, if you ask me, as a religion scholar, because of our Enlightenment roots, I find it more likely that Washington was a Deist, like Jefferson, thus NOT a Christian.

  • Posted By: sms29s66 @ 01/13/2009 6:25:48 PM

    I am an atheist. I wish that in this "enlightened" age that it were possible for politicians to be truthful about their lack of faith, but we live in an ignorant country. So I must agree with Henry IV who said as he converted to Catholicism to gain the throne of France: Paris is well worth a mass.

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