Less Shouting, More Talking

The greatest flaw in describing the church's support of the ban on same-sex marriage as part of the democratic process is the fact that so much was invested in it. This wasn't about people just voting. This was about the church's need to manipulate people in order to reach their goals. As soon as millions of dollars are invested in smear campaigns, especially those that involve blatant lies and scare-tactics, it becomes something else, doesn't it Mr. Mouw? If the case for banning had such solid footing, then it shouldn't have required lies to gain support.
Telling parents they should fear for what their children will be taught in school if it were to be legalized is manipulative and divisive I don't believe for a moment that the church isn't aware of exactly what they're doing when they use scare-tactics like that. There is no basis for this fear. There is currently no "marriage class" in school into which same-sex marriage would now be added. This is an example of the ludicrousness of the claims that support your POV.
You cannot expect to abuse, make slanderous statements about and attempt to keep a large group of people from enjoying rights that they have rightfully earned, and then wonder why anger directed back at those who do this to them has built. You would never ask an abuse victim why they do not look at their abuser with kind eyes. These are not felons being kept from voting. These are not murderers being kept from harming more people. All anyone can accuse them of is loving someone. To attempt to encourage our society to continue treating them as second-class citizens (kept from rights that murders, rapists and child molesters can still enjoy), is a reprehensible act coming from people that are supposed to preach love, kindness and humility. That you would support the marginalization, not of criminals who hurt people, but of people that simply love another person, should make people question what it is that the church holds as it's philosophy on spirituality and Godliness.
Of all of the things going on in our world today (war, hunger, disease, poverty, abuse, mass torture and rape, slavery and sex trafficking, etc), that THIS is the subject that the church speaks out the loudest against is a curious arrangement of your priorities. That of all those things, what you feel the need to stop is loving families, that want to provide warm and safe and stable homes for children that need it desperately, and that want equal respect for the family that they build and work hard to maintain......THIS is the great evil to invest so much in stopping?

The problem with this approach is the idea that you can sit and ask people to calmly discuss an issue that is threatening to tear their lives apart. These people have been told their marriages are invalid and their families less valuable or moral than a heterosexual family. How can you expect a calm, rational response to an issue that hits so close to home? Prop 8 broke people's hearts, angry shouting is the least I would expect in response.

you are the very definition of a religious fundamentalist. When you vote as you have, you show your ignorance on this subject. the constitution clearly speaks of separation of church and state. maybe the churches need to start paying a fair share of taxes if they want to speak. if gay marriage were allowed it would strengthen marriage as a whole. not weaken it. i would welcome the opportunity to speak with you. but i don't think you would like what i have to say.

I think the whole thing is wrong. A vast majority of Americans shouldn't be voting on rights that will be given to a meager minority. I hope that the federal court in California realizes the mistake they made by allowing the public to change their constitution by just a 4% margin. The opposition to Prop 8 is "shouting" because they're sick of feeling depressed every time a state announces that the love they share with their partners means nothing in that particular state. And that's happened a good number of times. It's simply maddening.

The Church of Latter Day Saints should be ashamed for using their millions to support a cause that will hinder regular people that just want to have their love recognized, rather than using it toward something more enlightening. How could anyone vote yes on this bill and not subconsciously feel like a complete douchebag?

I agree with Mr. Mouw on one thing and one thing only: we can discuss this in a civilized way. That being said, if I must shout to be heard, then I will shout.
Mr. Mouw mentioned a "slippery slope" of what people could be asked to tolerate. In my view, that argument works both ways. Now that the voting public has asserted its power to strip the rights of a minority, what other rights can be stripped from what other minorities when citizens cast their ballots. As a gay man, what other rights can I expect to be denied by my fellow citizens? That, my friend, is a slippery slope we ought to avoid but it is the slipper slope we find ourselves on as more and more evangelical groups push for a federal ban on gay marriage or for states to prohibit adoption by gay couples. .

Mr. Mouw also suggests that the children of evangelical families may suffer from the media's liberal bias against them. I ask Mr. Mouw to consider how traumatic it might be for a gay youth to grow up in a society that frequently, through popular votes, tells him that he is less valuable and less deserving of fundamental rights because he is gay. That is extremely frightening and disheartening.

While I respect Mr. Mouw's right to speak freely and openly about his religious beliefs, I also ask him to remember his history of the United States of America. Before this country had even been born, the people who emigrated from Europe were in search of freedom from religious persecution. For Mr. Mouw to suggest that, by voting yes on Proposition 8 he is not imposing his religious views on the rest of society, is blatantly and obviously false because that is exactly what has happened. This great nation has thrived on religious freedom, and, again, we would venture down a very slippery slope to allow laws to be passed based on the religious views of some, even if they are the views of the majority. Make no mistake, it is not infringing on anybody's religious freedom to allow gay marriage. Nobody would be forced to practice it or to see it in the aisles and pews of their own church if the law is interpreted correctly. We can all enjoy our full rights as citizens and still live side by side.

The establishment clause was written into the constitution to prevent the government from establishing a national religion. Why should we base policy on one religious group's values? Those aren't my values, they aren't the values of many people. If you really believe that same sex marriage is a danger to "the children", I'd like to see one valid secular reason. Why are "the children" so important anyway? They don't deserve any more or less consideration than an adult does on any matter; they're just the adults of the future. Teaching them to be accepting of other people is probably the best thing that a parent can do to make their lives easier, because this is a diverse country we find ourselves in. And what of the children who begin to realize they're gay? Religious banter directed at them will certainly cause severe psychological damage. Do you really care about them? Or are you trying to recruit more foot soldiers for your cause?

Part I
At Fuller, I have learned to view the Bible as errant, while it is infallible in that it does not fail to show us the Truth. Praise God for that! Your biggest concern is one that I shared not too long ago: the slippery slope argument. But this is a ground-of-meaning argument based in fear and not love.

If the Bible is full of errors, omissions and contextualization, why do we interpret the passages on marriage between man and woman so literally? If Fuller teaches "believing criticism" then why are we told not to apply this critical approach when it comes to texts on homosexuality? 1 Timothy is one of the most condemning books on this issue, and yet in this book, whose authorship is disputed, women are responsible for the fall of all humans and can only be saved through childbearing. Also, deacons must be male, and women should not speak in church. But most Protestants do not condone these things. We overlook them because they do not adhere to God's overriding principles of covenantal love, faithfulness, and God's salvation for all by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Are we defying the Bible's authority on slavery because we no longer condone the institution of slavery in the United States? Just the same, I believe homosexuals are in bondage and in social slavery, and we Christians shackle and demoralize homosexuals by denying them their God-given potential because of a few proof texts. If Fuller professors teach that sexual congruency is a byproduct of brain development and hormone production (biological, chemical reasons), then we can infer from this that people cannot choose their sexual orientation. I certainly did not choose. I just knew by the time I was 3 I liked playing with dolls more and by the time I was 11 or so I liked boys more. I had plenty of opportunities to play with my brother, and not once was I interested in his toys or playing in the sports that he engaged in.

Part II
Some gay students claim that Fuller is afraid of being accused of losing its soul because it is too liberal. But I challenge you again on this assumption: we have a professor at Fuller who no longer believes in the existence of the soul. I would say this is significantly more controversial theologically then accepting homosexuality as a post-fall condition of human nature. We keep wanting to go back to the Garden of Eden and Genesis 1-3. But this is erroneous and impossible. We cannot return to our true selves until we are fully judged and redeemed by Christ. In the meantime, why do we have transgendered individuals? I have been told that because they are such a small segment of society that we should not worry about it. Yet, does Christ not leave the 99 to go after the one? I believe that we will be judged by Christ for putting burdens on a segment of our society that we ourselves cannot bear. This act of the Pharisees angered Christ the most.

There is a culture war brewing right now because an extremely talented and very likable candidate on American Idol lost the competition because of the Christian sympathy vote, and because he is gay. Of course, this is just my opinion. I am just a sexually congruent, heterosexual mother, wife, volunteer, student, and Hispanic who is sensitive to liberation causes. I came with nothing into this world and will leave with nothing. I have nothing to lose but my reputation, my academic standing, my future. I will put my life and my family's life on the line for something THIS important.

Will you be a social abolitionist, Dr. Mouw, and stand up for the oppressed? God will and does. It is only a matter of time before enough post-modernists stand up and say, "Sexual orientation is the wrong question... it is no longer relevant for life in the Spirit."

Part II
Some gay students claim that Fuller is afraid of being accused of losing its soul because it is too liberal. But I challenge you again on this assumption: we have a professor at Fuller who no longer believes in the existence of the soul. I would say this is significantly more controversial theologically then accepting homosexuality as a post-fall condition of human nature. We keep wanting to go back to the Garden of Eden and Genesis 1-3. But this is erroneous and impossible. We cannot return to our true selves until we are fully judged and redeemed by Christ. In the meantime, why do we have transgendered individuals? I have been told that because they are such a small segment of society that we should not worry about it. Yet, does Christ not leave the 99 to go after the one? I believe that we will be judged by Christ for putting burdens on a segment of our society that we ourselves cannot bear. This act of the Pharisees angered Christ the most.

There is a culture war brewing right now because an extremely talented and very likable candidate on American Idol lost the competition because of the Christian sympathy vote, and because he is gay. Of course, this is just my opinion. I am just a sexually congruent, heterosexual mother, wife, volunteer, student, and Hispanic who is sensitive to liberation causes. I came with nothing into this world and will leave with nothing. I have nothing to lose but my reputation, my academic standing, my future. I will put my life and my family???s life on the line for something THIS important.

Will you be a social abolitionist, Dr. Mouw, and stand up for the oppressed? God will and does. It is only a matter of time before enough post-modernists stand up and say, ???Sexual orientation is the wrong question??? it is no longer relevant for life in the Spirit.???

At Fuller, I have learned to view the Bible as errant, while it is infallible in that it does not fail to show us the Truth. Praise God for that! Your biggest concern is one that I shared not too long ago: the slippery slope argument. But this is a ground-of-meaning argument based in fear and not love.

If the Bible is full of errors, omissions and contextualization, why do we interpret the passages on marriage between man and woman so literally? If Fuller teaches ???believing criticism??? then why are we told not to apply this critical approach when it comes to texts on homosexuality? 1 Timothy is one of the most condemning books on this issue, and yet in this book, whose authorship is disputed, women are responsible for the fall of all humans and can only be saved through childbearing. Also, deacons must be male, and women should not speak in church. But most Protestants do not condone these things. We overlook them because they do not adhere to God???s overriding principles of covenantal love, faithfulness, and God???s salvation for all by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Are we defying the Bible???s authority on slavery because we no longer condone the institution of slavery in the United States? Just the same, I believe homosexuals are in bondage and in social slavery, and we Christians shackle and demoralize homosexuals by denying them their God-given potential because of a few proof texts. If Fuller professors teach that sexual congruency is a byproduct of brain development and hormone production (biological, chemical reasons), then we can infer from this that people cannot choose their sexual orientation. I certainly did not choose. I just knew by the time I was 3 I liked playing with dolls more??? and by the time I was 11 or so I liked boys more. I had plenty of opportunities to play with my brother, and not once was I interested in his toys or playing in the sports that he engaged in.

(continued on next post)

Thanks Dudelove. First we need to deal with your name. If you hate gay people so much why do you call yourself Dude Love?

Sorry but that's just weird :D

:) hop deer geschriebt!

HM, you can reach me at my temporary e-mail address: bvgay@yahoo.de
I'll send you my genuine (permanent) e-mail address from there.
Take care!
Dean1955

Oh, here you are! Hi Homosexual Man, Chike, LT, et al.! So you've moved our little discussion from "Our Mutual Joy's" to this comment board? ;) Haven't been able to read any postings there for weeks, and don't understand why Newsweek hasn't long since gotten around to fixing it. A lot of on-line friendships were built (and traditional hostilities between us and our right-wing "Christian" adversaries firmly cemented) ;) across the months there.
Anyway, glad to see you're all out there alive and kicking.

"Will we even be allowed to counter these influences in our homes and churches without being accused of "hate speech"? ... What is it about people like me that frightens you so much?"

One problem is that the Bible unfortunately does contain an enormous amount of hate speech. The passage so often quoted from Leviticus calls for mass murder of gay people.

If you don't approve of mass murder of gay people, then you disagree with that passage.

If you agree with that verse, then *that* is what frightens me. You are teaching children in Sunday School to murder.

"What is it about people like me that frightens you so much? What would you need to hear from us that would reduce your anxiety? " How can we talk to you when you have to ask this question? How can there be any dialogue with someone who turns a blank, confused look to a demand for one's basic human rights and dignity? You say you are not 'the worst kind of Fundamentalist?' Okay, so your not Fred Phelps. And? All that means is that your not a complete screaming lunatic. But just because your 'only' mildly schizophrenic and not full-blown paranoid and lost in delusion does not make you sane.