Less Shouting, More Talking

Thanks Dr. Mouw for displaying a rare tone of civility on one of today's most divisive and polarizing issues. I can't think of another public controversy where there is such a low tolerance for respectful disagreement and dialogue (as evidenced by the comments in this space). It seems as though we aren't allowed to have healthy disagreements anymore. It's as if those supporting gay marriage and those opposing it can no longer see the shared humanity in their opponents. We cut off the conversation before we've even begun to get to know one another.

As a person of faith, I am truly saddened that we'd rather call each other names that have a sincere and respectful conversation. Like most people reading this, I have my own views on the gay marriage issue, but I am reluctant to share them in this forum for fear of being labeled and misunderstood by those who might disagree. For better or worse, the Prop 8 vote reveals that our nation's internal differences of opinion on GLBT rights are not going to be eliminated any time soon. Shouting at each other will only make things worse.

Reading the angry comments posted here (by both sides) makes me feel like the only one who willingly tolerates and respects the views of those who think differently than I do.

I hope there are others.

For the record I am a Christian and have read the bible dozen of times. I am 100% behind the concept of freedom of religion as well as freedom "from" religion which is a necessary condition for true freedom of religion.
Contexting to discredit scriptures? No. You do that, but only when it suits you.
Me, I appreciate the bible for what it is and would not force it on anyone.
I have a copy of the constitution here in front of me. Available on Amazon.com and cheap too.
You have a copy? Please quote the section that protects your right to discrimination and bias.
My read of the document is, that you are eventually going to lose your in your effort to use the constitution to discriminate. Need some proof? Even Junior could figure out that the constitution wouldnt support this sort of nonsense and that is why he fought so hard to write bias INTO the constitution with an ammendment.
Same with Proposition 8
Get it?
These documents were designed to protect freedom and liberties, protect civil rights and promote equality.
You suppose it is a coincidence that fundamentalists in this country are always backing attempts to ammend these founding principles? But then you'd claim these ammendments, while patently discriminating in nature, are actually there to "protect" something...........ah yes......protect "you" at the expense of others. How Christian of you.

Contexting is always one way to discredit the scriptures. Based on your logic, I can see why history drove the founding fathers of our constitution to protect freedom of religion. You would dismantle that to acheive your agenda. Thank goodness for our constitution.

Free
Allowing everyone to enjoy a right, equally, is not "redefining". Reminds me of the fringe Bushies and their constant cry, everytime a legal decision didnt got their way, that judges were "legislating" from the bench; but if a decision went their way the judge was being "true".
So you want some "strict protections"? Around your personal freedoms etc. How interesting.
Well your fears are baseless as long as you and your church are completely disconnected from our secular government. If on the other hand you receive special considerations such as tax exemptions, faith based initiative federal dollars, or any other means of "public" support, then yes, you are required to put your prejudices and hurtful biases aside. Take no Fed, State, or Local dollars and you would be as free as the KKK to practice your hate based beliefs and teach your spawn entirely as you please. But no, you can not take MY money and use it to teach your children I am a sinner and 3rd class citizen.

As I said earlier, would like to see this guy try to live with a patch-work, partial, separate & unequal, state by state with no-federal status collection of few rights as it is for same sex couples. I'll wager, if we began, state by state, to deny recognition to marriages performed by some churches, or for marriages where the couple do not plan to have children, the conversation would change fast. Amazing to me how people who enjoy a right, are so joyous to deny the same to another. And did you notice the demographics on those voting for Prop 8? Hard to imagine how any African American could vote "FOR" discrimination, bias, and bigotry but more than 50% surely did.
Add insult to injury? Churches such as LDS are tax exempt and contributions to them deductible on your income taxes. So condider this, not only were out of state LDS funds used to deprive you of equal rights, but the feds and the states subsidize the contributions that were used to deny you equal rights. I have a topic for "Lets talk".
How about if places like the Polynesian Cultural Center, the theme park on Oahu, be required to state that they are an entity of the MORMON church. Having fun....funds discrimination. Lets talk about that.

The question isn't "Can we talk", the question is "If we talk, will you listen?" If you supported Prop 8 you have already proven you won't. What more can we say?

Sam
Would like to believe you but, when one starts a plea for a conversation, by offering that they voted for Proposition 8, it is hard to be charitable.
Perhaps only when a basic human right is denied you, will you be able to understand.
Illegal immigrants have more rights in the USA than do same sex citizens.
"Lets Talk"?. Usually this has meant we get to listen to someone explain why he thinks we should be treated like 3rd class non-citizens. Help me understand why I should want to talk?

Carl, you obviously do not know Richard Mouw. You obviously have been hurt by "the worst kind of fundamentalist" religionists. And you are certainly right that there is so much out there being called "Christianity" and being done in the name of "God" today that is nothing more than a power hungry money grab. I could name countless clowns on television and behind church pulpits. With all do respect sir, Dr. Richard Mouw is not one of these. In fact, as an alumnus of the seminary his is president over, and one, who has an EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN voted against prop 8 because of my understanding of separation of church and state, I am disheartened that you lack the charity to even undersatnd who Richard Mouw is before lambasting him. You exemplify the same nauseating narrow mindedness which you rail against. You sir, are but another side of the same fundamentalistic coin. Richard Mouw and Fuller Theological Seminary are not just an institution of that insipid fundamentalism of the Robetson-Dobson-Falwell ilk, Fuller and the ministers, community leaders, and theologians being trained there are doing so, not to become rich, but to go to the hurting places of our communities and the world. More of my fellow alums than I can count on two hands are around the world working to alieviate suffering and poverty, some of them voted for prop 8 like Mouw, some of them voted against it like me.

Sam Andress

Mr. Mouw, here's a bottom line: Jesus calls us to love one another and tell the Good News. The Good News is simply that Jesus died for your sins, and if you accept that, you'll go to heaven. Period. He didn't instruct us to tell people how to live, or what they can or can't do - just tell the story, love them, and move on. We're all the same, Mr. Mouw, worthless sinners. No one person is worse or better than the other. You probably believe that all Christians should serve God. Well, you can't bring God his slippers or prepare him breakfast; the only way to serve God is by serving man. And not just those of your own choosing. Everyone. And if those reading this think I'm full of crap - I don't care. You don't have to believe what I do - but that doens't mean we can't be friends. I have more non-Christian friends than Christian ones, primarily because of discussions like this. I think we (Christians) just need to get off our high horses, shut up, and serve man and stop telling people how to live.

Mr. Mouw is guilty of intellectual double-cross: after saying he voted for Prop 8, he then tells us that he does not want to impose his "personal convictions on the broader population". Sorry, dude, you missed you chance when you voted for Prop 8 instead of saying to yourself, your god, and the general public, "I oppose this but I won't stop those who believe differently".
We are asked to tolerate MANY things each day that we disagree with. Near the top of my list is tolerating fear-mongering preachers who tell us they stand for "peace, love, and tolerance" but whose actions say "Hell, fire, and damnation" - not exactly words of comfort.
There is nothing in this essay that promotes a pluralistic society, and I'm surprised that Newsweek printed such a poorly constructed thesis.

The Christian Rght has had the floor and made their message clear .

Now it's time for you all to sit down and SHUT UP!

You're being very coy here, Reverend. It's not just your hurt feelings.

You are the head of a theological seminary that supports common political goals with every other fundamentalist group.

Yes, you are a fascist, you are part of the biggest, money-hungry, truth denying, fascist organization in the world.

You recruit intellectual zombies to write letters by the thousands to support your political goals

while you bleed them all of ten per cent of their gross income.

You are part of a deranged, power hungry organization that will not stop, ever, until you control the minds

and wallets of every living human being, world wide!

You are also deceptively hiding the fact that the Christian Right is recruiting big bucks from certain billionaires

to ultimately abolish the public school system in America and replace it with "Christian Schools",

to create total mind control over future generations, teaching Creationism and mindless obedience.

Pluralistic Society? What a joke! Fundamentalist Christians have all banded together for the same

political causes and will outlaw anything that makes life worth living for any person.

and while you are so pro-life that you won't harm stem cells, you supported a very Christian presidential administration

that classified information of how many deaths were caused in foreign countries fighting for oil.

Yes, oil! Not democracy.

You were all pawns as well in Cheney's huge war-mongering, war-profiteering sham.

Sit down! Shut up! We've heard all the ideological twaddle already.

Carl Coco, Orlando, Florida

While Mr. Mouw's request to talk and not scream at each other over this situation gives me hope, unfortunately it is his side that refuses to even consider the concept of compromise. They select lines from the bible and apply them to the situation as they see fit as opposed to using common sense and empathy. The arguments they use against same sex marriage were the some of the same arguments that were used for interracial marriages 50 years ago. That it was immoral and would destroy the moral fiber of society. While Mr. Mouw does not want to think that disallowing marriage to a large part of the population since they do not agree with his religious teachings, is not promoting hate and discrimination it does. What happened to mutual respect and allowing others to make their own choices?
He raises the issue of gays and lesbians raising children in their households and that this is one of the reasons he does not believe in gay marriage. How can having a child raised in a loving home be detrimental? Merely by having two parents of the opposite sex does he belive that makes a household healthy and nurturing? It is the love and care that is provided to a child that matters not who provides it.
Fifty years from now we will have moved on to a more enlighted and respectful situation on this issue and people will look back and wonder how anyone considered this kind of discrimination acceptable in our society.

Sorry everyone...those question marks are suppose to be quotes, and sorry it posted twice. I'll shut up now.