Diesel vs. Hybrid

@Harrylogy
"The attitude of lecturing"
Er, that wasn't a lecture. it was information, if you can't tell the difference go back to school.

"especially Americans"
Oh, I'm sorry, you're American! That means you're right and the rest of the PLANET is wrong! Damn I forgot about that...

"Apart from that,the concept of high tech motors installed in Mickey mouse cars,like the Golf,is comitragic."
Wow! The arrogance! You really aren't doing the American stereotype any favours are you?
What the hell does "Comitragic" mean anyway? Go and buy a dictionary for crying out loud.
I'll assume you mean "Silly" or "Comical" or something like that?
The fact is that what you consider a "Mickey Mouse" car, is actually VW's best selling car and the 2nd best selling car in Europe overall.
http://cars.uk.msn.com/News/Top_ten_article.aspx?cp-documentid=7319152

The Golf is widely accepted as one of THE cars to own if you are a driving enthusiast. (The Golf GTi range is legendary). It isn't even a very small car - there are at least two VW's that are smaller (the Lupo and the Polo). The Golf is about the same size as the Ford Focus, which I believe is pretty popular in the US (Although thankfully the ones we get in Europe have completely different Engines, suspension and transmission - judging by the one I hired when visiting the US). So ours are pretty fun.

"We Americans have real cars ( > 16ft ) & we want to see those cars equipped with diesels..."
'Real Cars'? So you drive a 'real' car and everyone else on the planet is driving around in a mickey mouse car? What are you...10 years old? ("My cars bigger than your car! neer! neer!")
A 16ft vehicle isn't a car, its a boat with wheels (And handles about as well)

Sales of SUVs in the US are falling faster than hell, your vehicle manufacturers are going out of business and having to be saved with YOUR tax dollars, and you still insist that you're right?



I apologise to anyone who I have offended with this - I'm not Anti-American, but moronic comments like the ones left by this person don't do anyone any good.

It still amazes me that most people over in the US have this blinkered view of diesel vehicles as being dirty, slow or polluting. You really don't know what you're missing out on.

I live in the UK, and drive a 2003 VW Golf, which has a 1.9L PD TDi engine.
It outputs a little over 100BHP, and I regularly get 50-60MPG (42-50 US).
I actually got 65MPG (54 US) average once on a 400Mile trip, as I kept the speed below 70MPH (I usually drive at 85-90MPH and get 55ish (46 US)).

This is in a car that is nearly 6 Years old!!

The new MK6 VW Golf Bluemotion, which gets released this year gets 74.3MPG (63.4 US) on the combined cycle - so you're looking at over 80MPG (68 US) on the motorway / highway. All this and it's slightly more powerful that the one I have now at 103BHP.

The way forward is Diesel Hybrid. Stick a 1.3L Diesel generator in a Volt or other Hybrid vehicle and you're looking at 150-200MPG easy. Probably get over 100 even when the batteries are flat.

Actually, the price difference for diesel came within the last decade, as personal diesel vehicle fell by the wayside from the bad rap the fuel had received. After this disparagement, the only users of the diesel fuels were shipping and transportation companies. The US government felt they were losing a lot of possible tax income in these industries, so they increased the tax percentage to indirectly profit from their work. This caused consumers to looki away from the fuel even more than before. Soon, Americans were purchasing so many SUV's and Hummers getting 8-12 mpg that the fuel industry knew the could raise prices and the average American couldn't do a thing about it but keep pouring money from their wallets to feed their coffers (even with lower gas prices starting mid-2008, ExxonMobile just listed worldwide record profits exceeding $42 billion...profit, not gross!)

Diesel, in the meantime was being used in Europe almost as much as unleaded, but America wouldn't allow them into the US. BMW has multiple diesel vehicles but the UAW wouldn't allow those engines into the US, citing lose of work for the Auto Workers. They were able to convince the US government to force BMW to ship their vehicles to the US with either temporary engines or no engine at all so that BMW would have to contract US auto workers to place American unleaded engines in the car. (My father used to work int he auto industry along with many uncles and other relatives. I have heard all about the work they did.)

With huge advancements, mainly from the European market, diesel now runs up to 20% cleaner than unleaded, gets 20-20% better fuel efficiency, and as is harrylogy states, it is cheaper to produce. Not only that, but the wear and tear on the diesel engine is less (also those engines are typically made much more durable) and don't tend to need an overhaul or to be replaced until well over 200,000 miles of use. Add to that the fact that biodiesel can be produced from almost a hundred different sources (soybeans, sunflower seeds, animal fat, and many more) and any diesel engine can run on biodiesel fuels with very minor adjustments to the engine (fuel hoses need to be replaced for more durable matter than standard rubber hosing). Even if your diesel auto is running on bio-diesel and you cannot get to another source of bio-diesel, such as made in your garage, you can mix stadard non-bio diesel from the pump without damaging the engine.

DIesel is very effective and efficient. A diesel-hybrid would relieve much of the impact on our society, economy and environment until even more efficient types of fuels become available. Until that happens, look into the diesel vehicles now being released into the US. There will be at least 7 models released (until this year, only the VW Jetta was permitted to be imported into the US) and write your congressman to release the tax penalties on diesel fuel so it becomes more economical to the average consumer.

Actually, the price difference for diesel came within the last decade, as personal diesel vehicle fell by the wayside from the bad rap the fuel had received. After this disparagement, the only users of the diesel fuels were shipping and transportation companies. The US government felt they were losing a lot of possible tax income in these industries, so they increased the tax percentage to indirectly profit from their work. This caused consumers to looki away from the fuel even more than before. Soon, Americans were purchasing so many SUV's and Hummers getting 8-12 mpg that the fuel industry knew the could raise prices and the average American couldn't do a thing about it but keep pouring money from their wallets to feed their coffers (even with lower gas prices starting mid-2008, ExxonMobile just listed worldwide record profits exceeding $42 billion...profit, not gross!)

Diesel, in the meantime was being used in Europe almost as much as unleaded, but America wouldn't allow them into the US. BMW has multiple diesel vehicles but the UAW wouldn't allow those engines into the US, citing lose of work for the Auto Workers. They were able to convince the US government to force BMW to ship their vehicles to the US with either temporary engines or no engine at all so that BMW would have to contract US auto workers to place American unleaded engines in the car. (My father used to work int he auto industry along with many uncles and other relatives. I have heard all about the work they did.)

With huge advancements, mainly from the European market, diesel now runs up to 20% cleaner than unleaded, gets 20-20% better fuel efficiency, and as is harrylogy states, it is cheaper to produce. Not only that, but the wear and tear on the diesel engine is less (also those engines are typically made much more durable) and don't tend to need an overhaul or to be replaced until well over 200,000 miles of use. Add to that the fact that biodiesel can be produced from almost a hundred different sources (soybeans, sunflower seeds, animal fat, and many more) and any diesel engine can run on biodiesel fuels with very minor adjustments to the engine (fuel hoses need to be replaced for more durable matter than standard rubber hosing). Even if your diesel auto is running on bio-diesel and you cannot get to another source of bio-diesel, such as made in your garage, you can mix stadard non-bio diesel from the pump without damaging the engine.

DIesel is very effective and efficient. A diesel-hybrid would relieve much of the impact on our society, economy and environment until even more efficient types of fuels become available. Until that happens, look into the diesel vehicles now being released into the US. There will be at least 7 models released (until this year, only the VW Jetta was permitted to be imported into the US) and write your congressman to release the tax penalties on diesel fuel so it becomes better economically to the average consumer.

To harryology: re: Tesla: Anyone have an extra $100,000 lying around? Tesla is awesome, but that guy is not exactly aiming at those of us who are milking cars with 130,000 miles on it hoping to get our next used care for under $10K

Here's an interesting supply/demand effect of diesels we haven't pondered yet: I always remembered diesel back in the '70's as being cheaper than gas, and when I asked why, I was told that it takes less energy to refine it because it's one of the first heavier fuels that comes off the "cracking" process. But then I learned that out of a gallon of crude oil, the percentage of diesel that one can get is relatively small: meaning that if suddenly there was a large demand for diesel, the price would skyrocket in a hurry because it would require more crude oil per gallon of diesel to satisfy it.

Hybrids may not be as efficient at the moment, but the reason they are as efficient as they are, it's because they can re-capture some of the energy of momentum with regenerative braking and storage technology. It seems wiser to me to focus on this technology - can you imagine what kind of regenerative energy that an 80,000 pound semi tractor could capture when he hits the brakes at the bottom of a long hill? '

Just a thought.

I own two VW TDI models, a 2002 VW Golf TDI and a 2005 VW Jetta Wagen TDI. My 02 Golf "only" has 311k miles on it. I love getting around 45 MPG(US) while driving it like I stole it. The 700+ mile tank range on ~ 15 gallons of diesel fuel comes as a bonus on top of that. I live in the cold northeast and starting in the winter is no problem. I don't have to plug it in because there's no block heater because it's not needed. Finding fuel is never an issue, especially with the 700+ mile tank range. If finding fuel were really a problem, every local delivery truck would be in big trouble long before I ever have to worry about find fuel. (myth busted). Given that it's TURBO diesel, it's alway peppy and has lots of low-end torque which make it a lot easier to drive than it's gasser counterparts. That means no downshift needed when climbing hills or passing other cars...the torque is available in the RPM range where it's most useful. I've also done a few performance mods which makes the car a real blast to drive. And still getting around 45 MPG and 700 miles between fillups is a nice bonus.

There are 3 fundamental reasons why I drive a modern turbodiesel car and seriously won't own another gasser (including hybrids) ever again if I can help it: Economy, Longevity, and Performance. I drive a lot, around 1k miles/week, so all 3 are important to me. I love the rich blend of economy, longevity, and performance that it offers. I like being able to have my cake and eat it too.

No more gassers for me ever again if I can help it. All future vehicle purchases of mine shall be DIESEL vehicles!
For more VW TDI information on the web, check out TDIclub: http://www.TDICLUB.com

I own two VW TDI models, a 2002 VW Golf TDI and a 2005 VW Jetta Wagen TDI. My 02 Golf "only" has 311k miles on it. I love getting around 45 MPG(US) while driving it like I stole it. The 700+ mile tank range on ~ 15 gallons of diesel fuel comes as a bonus on top of that. I live in the cold northeast and starting in the winter is no problem. I don't have to plug it in because there's no block heater because it's not needed. Finding fuel is never an issue, especially with the 700+ mile tank range. If finding fuel were really a problem, every local delivery truck would be in big trouble long before I ever have to worry about find fuel. (myth busted). Given that it's TURBO diesel, it's alway peppy and has lots of low-end torque which make it a lot easier to drive than it's gasser counterparts. That means no downshift needed when climbing hills or passing other cars...the torque is available in the RPM range where it's most useful. I've also done a few performance mods which makes the car a real blast to drive. And still getting around 45 MPG and 700 miles between fillups is a nice bonus.

There are 3 fundamental reasons why I drive a modern turbodiesel car and seriously won't own another gasser (including hybrids) ever again if I can help it: Economy, Longevity, and Performance. I drive a lot, around 1k miles/week, so all 3 are important to me. I love the rich blend of economy, longevity, and performance that it offers. I like being able to have my cake and eat it too.

No more gassers for me ever again if I can help it. All future vehicle purchases of mine shall be DIESEL vehicles!
For more VW TDI information on the web, check out TDIclub: http://www.TDICLUB.com

Electric is fine for certain purposes, but we will need more power production. That means more nuclear plants if we want to reduce CO2. Why isn't the environmental movement lobbying for more nuclear plants?

I had a VW diesel rabbit back in the late 70's early 80's, That car was a blast to drive and even zipping a bit past the Speed limit it would give me 55 MPG and as high as 70 MPG if I got civil.. and here we are trying to talk the Auto industry into 30 or 35 MPG thirty years later.
Even with the artificial high price of Diesel they are cost effective.
Still I think the future is electric even though the interest in electric comes and goes dependant on the price of gas and concern for the enviroment.

OOPS, that would be 100 thousand cars. But, wouldn't it be great to have that many electric cars on the road?

This talk of Diesel as if it were green alternative to gasoline is disappointing.
I bought the cheapest compact, Kia Rio, I could find 4 1/2 years ago, hoping that there would be an electric in production before it bit the dust. A pure electric with a 40 mile range and an 8 hr charge would satisfy my needs perfectly. It would also be a lot cheaper and easier to bring up to production than anything with a combustion engine. Aptera looks promising, but they don???t sell outside the I5 corridor. It would be a bit of a shame if the first electric I buy comes from beyond the border. I don't understand why our esteemed leaders can't us incentive money to buy 10 thousand electric autos and jump start that market. At $27K per auto that???s only 2.7 billion dollars.

diesels are most definitely a great option in the interim between gasoline and electric vehicles...

the biggest problem is the price of diesel, which has been artificially inflated for a much longer time than gasoline. As a result EVERYONE pays more for everything due to shipping costs...

I'd like to see one petroleum fuel as a standard. Even Jet engines can run on diesel fuel.

One common fuel that applies to all markets would be the smartest long term investment we could make....

A diesel-electric hybrid makes a lot of sense. How about a small diesel engine that charges the battery all the time, unless the battery reaches a certain state of charge? Constant RPM makes it super efficient, it can charge itself while parked (no, no one can steal it just because it's "running"), and electric motors can provide extra acceleration without affecting the diesel engine at all.

Last year, the United States imported about HALF of its CRUDE OIL from Canada, Saudi Arabia and Mexico - but nil from two of the world's other top oil producing nations.

Even though the U.S. is the world???s third-largest producer, American crude oil imports represent about 63% of total U.S. oil consumed domestically.

Canada and Mexico, two of the top oil suppliers to United States, are partnered under the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). America also remains long-time friends with Saudi Arabia, the world???s leading oil producer.

Still, more volatile countries like Nigeria, Venezuela and Angola account for about one third of U.S. imported oil supplies.
Top 10 USA Crude Oil Suppliers

America imported US$204.3 billion worth of crude oil in 2007 from 10 of the world???s largest oil producers listed below.

1. Canada ??? US$38 billion (17.8% of U.S. imports from top 20 oil-producing nations)
2. Saudi Arabia ??? $33.8 billion (15.8%)
3. Mexico ??? $30.3 billion (14.2%)
4. Nigeria ??? $30.1 billion (14.1%)
5. Venezuela ??? $30 billion (14%)
6. Angola ??? $12.1 billion (5.7%)
7. Algeria ??? $11.5 billion (5.4%)
8. Iraq ??? $10.9 billion (5.1%)
9. Brazil ??? $3.8 billion (1.8%)
10. Kuwait ??? $3.75 billion (1.8%).

Other Leading Sources for American Crude Oil Imports

Russia, Norway and China provide well under 2% of American oil imports. This is despite the fact that these 3 countries are among the world???s top ten oil producing countries.

1. United Kingdom ??? $2.54 billion (1.2% of U.S. imports from top 20 oil-producing nations)
2. Russia ??? $2.5 billion (1.2%)
3. Libya ??? $2.4 billion (1.1%)
4. Norway ??? $1.1 billion (0.5%)
5. Indonesia ??? $369.9 million (0.2%)
6. Kazakhstan ??? $236.4 million (0.1%)
7. United Arab Emirates ??? $232.6 (0.1%)
8. China ??? $140.9 million (0.06%).

Last year, America imported no crude oil at all from the world???s:

* Fourth-largest oil producer Iran
* Twentieth-largest oil producer Qatar.

America???s Fastest-Growing Crude Oil Providers

Last year, the U.S. grew its oil imports at the fastest rates from the first 4 countries listed below which collectively account for about 3% of total American oil imports. Among the larger oil importers, Nigeria had the highest percentage gain in crude oil imports from 2006.

1. Kazakhstan ??? up 258.2% from 2006 and up 275.3% since 2003
2. United Arab Emirates ??? up 147.8% and up 244.5%
3. Brazil ??? up 133.9% and up 505.3%
4. Libya ??? up 131.3% (no imports from Libya in 2003)
5. Nigeria ??? up 120.6% and up 317.6%
6. Algeria ??? up 120.2% and up 841.8%
7. Indonesia ??? up 117.5% and up 122.9%
8. Canada ??? up 116.2% and up 269.3%
9. Saudi Arabia ??? up 112.1% and up 200.4%
10. Venezuela ??? up 111.2% and up 237.1%.
11. Angola ??? up 107.4% and up 295.3%
12. Russia ??? up 102.7% and up 163.3%
13. Kuwait??? up 100.5% and up 189.9%.

Diesel Fuel burns more Evenly than [Gas & Hybrid Cars].

Diesel Fuel Cost More but as far as Burning Less Fuel, Fuel Efficient as well as Less Frequent Trips to the Gas Pump its Clear that Diesel Cars Handily Beat [Gas-Hybrid Cars].

Diesel Fueled cars are Far Better on the Environment than Both [Gas & Hybrid Cars].

Diesel Fueled cars Do Not Require having a State Emissions Test, as Both [Gas and Hybrid Car]s do.

Attention: Here in the State Of Georgia, All Diesel Fueled Cars Do Not Require Emissions testing for State Tags, Whereas [Gas & Hybrid Cars] are Required by Georgia Law, to undergo State Emissions Testing, in order to get State Tags. In each State the Requirements may Differ for State Tags, but in Georgia, The State Does Not Require [Diesel Cars] undergo Emissions Testing.

Many European Cars are [Diesel Fuel Cars]

Mercedes is coming out with a [Diesel-Hybrid Car Line] Soon

That's Diesel Fueled and Electric Car

We Researched for over a year and found the US automakers stuck on stupid. VW had a diesel and having been a diesel mechanic for 20 + years and knew the technology would prove diesel will be much more efficient and clean as advances in technolgy arrive, it is here now with the TDI we pulled the trigger on one in 2007 a new 2006 model and never regretted it. even with the prices 15 % higher the 39 city and 49 + highway outweighed all gaspot or hybrid competitors, along with that the Jetta has more room inside than prius for me @6' 3" I like room. Now the 2009 comes out we just traded our 2006 for one it is quieter more hp and torque plus fuel efficiency will be better than the 2006 and there is no perceptible diesel smell. and as biofuels become more available this will make emmissions even more EF. the big three are sleeping and need to get wih it. until they do we will buy foreign cars that meet our requirements.

I have owned diesels since the mid-80s. My 82 diesel Rabbit pickup got 50 mpg. It was as clean as any gas car. Of course, you got used to slowing down on steep hills, but who cared? Most recently, I own a 1 ton diesel Ford van that gets 30-40% better economy than the gas equivalent. Three years ago when I drove cross-country and back, diesel was $.70 - $1.00 per gallon LESS than regular. For the last year or so, it has been $.50 - $1.00 MORE than regular. At $1.50 for regular, that is an untenable difference. However, at $4.00 per gallon for regular, I would be saving money with a diesel. When the prices stabilize, diesel will have the advantage. But how long will that take? Someone recently told me that the difference was due to the ULSD (ultra low sulfur diesel) standard, which is not required in my vehicle, but the old #2 diesel is not generally available. Others have said it is due to international demand for diesel for industrial purposes. If the prices eventually are equal, diesel wins. If the prices rise significantly, but the differences per gallon stays the same, diesel wins. If a hybrid comes out based upon a diesel, diesel really kicks ass!!! Of course, purchase price of the vehicle also is a determinant, and if the makers don't bring hybrid/diesel prices down, at current fuel price levels, gas is holding its own. But in the long run, diesel is the future, baby! It is just uncertain how long that will take.

As w7PP wrote:
Why in hell would ANYBODY want to buy a diesel? I have a gas Civic that gets 37-39 MPG on $1.69 gas and a Bug that gets 40-42 MPG on diesel...Do the math... screw diesel!

This is not the fault of the technology but of the the diesel price gouging.

At the end your VW engine should outlast your CIVIC

Look at the comments made by dorf!!!
He is right on