On Their Own Terms

American women have found a new way to keep abortion a personal and private responsibility. It comes with a glass of water.

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  • Posted By: DO6990 @ 03/10/2009 9:59:37 PM

    Not everyone is ready to be a parent.
    thats why MISTAKES happen.
    Why bring up a child who is not well loved and cared for?
    sometimes u need to think of those who already
    have gone through the MISTAKE of having an abortion
    and realize that while u BLAB AND BLAB ur mouth
    u are hurting everyone around you.
    abortions are allmost ALWAYS regretted.
    yet in the end, you know that it was for its best.
    THINK BEFORE YOU TALK LIKE IF EVERYONE THINKS LIKE YOU.
    THATS WHY THIS IS AMERICA, YOU HAVE THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE
    WHAT EVER YOU WANT, WHENEVER YOU WANT.

    • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 03/11/2009 11:01:18 AM

      DO6990

      "sometimes u need to think of those who already
      have gone through the MISTAKE of having an abortion"

      You assume that an abortion is a "mistake". That is not an assumption that you can make. You say that others need to think about those who have had abortions but then in the same line you insinuate that their choosing to have an abortion was a mistake. There are many reason taht one can choose to have an abortion. The reason that one may need an abortion may be due to a mistake (failed contraceptive, "heat of the moment", being exposed to diseases that compromises the viability of the fetus, not getting tested beforehand to see if there are risks of genetic diseases, etc.) but having the abortion itself is rarely a mistake unless one is part of the small minority who later decide that it was.

  • Posted By: ajmm115 @ 03/06/2009 3:39:13 PM

    None of the other commenters discussed the issue of twinning. If life begins at the second of conception, and twinning occurs hours or days later, then by the "at conception" group's reasoning, twins are a single life. No, I don't buy that. "At conception" is a convenient time, but not valid.

  • Posted By: jamaica6 @ 03/03/2009 10:37:45 PM

    Quit making excuses for women who, in a large percentage of cases, have already excercised their freedom of "choice" and need to learn to deal with the consequences! CHOOSE a different lifestyle if you aren't interested in being a parent.

  • Posted By: trustwomen @ 02/26/2009 7:37:12 AM

    Ms Quindlen's comments about "taking care of your own business in your own home" needs some clarification. Yes, women can pass the pregnancy at home but only after much more bleeding and cramping (usually) than a five minute procedure at the clinic. Plus, "regular doctors" cannot give Mifeprex since they must fulfill certain requirements that few outside of abortion clinics can meet. Therefore, women must still go to an abortion clinic in order to get the pill/s. Yes, absolutely, women should have a choice, but to suggest that the pill is the way to go disregards certain facts such as rural women still do not have access to abortion with 88% of US counties not having an abortion provider, accepting the pill usually necessitates a second trip for a checkup because of the higher failure rate with the pill and the subsequent absolute need for a second attempt because of the toxic nature of the medications involved. Because of the locations of Planned Parenthood clinics, the population they serve may be more urban and suburban; hence it is easier for their patients to return as opposed to going elsewhere for that checkup. Most abortions, 85%-90%, are provided by independent providers who do not see such a high percentage of women requesting the pill. Even in France where the abortion pill was available long before it was available in the US, there is little stigma in choosing abortion, and almost all women have easy access to a local clinic, the percentage of women choosing Mifeprex is not as high as in Planned Parenthood. For whatever factors, their experience is not the norm.

  • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/20/2009 4:10:27 PM

    THE FACTS OF WHEN HUMAN LIFE BEGINS

    Interview With Maureen Condic of the Westchester Institute

    By Karna Swanson

    SALT LAKE CITY, Utah, NOV. 7, 2008 (Zenit.org).- The conclusion of scientist Maureen Condic that human life begins at a defined moment of conception isn't an opinion based on a belief, but rather a "reflection of the way the world is."

    Condic, a senior fellow of the Westchester Institute for Ethics and the Human Person, published her conclusions in a white paper titled "When Does Human Life Begin?" In the report she addresses the topic using current scientific data in human embryology.

    An associate professor of neurobiology and anatomy at the University of Utah School of Medicine, Condic received her doctorate in neurobiology from the University of California, Berkely. Her teaching focuses primarily on embryonic development, and she directs the University of Utah School of Medicine's course in human embryology.

    In the interview with ZENIT, Condic explains why the question of when human life begins is important to address, and what scientific criteria she used to define a "moment of conception."

    Q: This is the first white paper for the Westchester Institute. Why this topic? Why now?

    Condic: This is an important question, with significant biological, ethical and philosophical dimensions. As I note in the paper, resolving when human life begins has important implications for a number of controversial political topics, including abortion and human embryonic stem cell research.

    As a scientist and as director of a medical school course in human embryology, I have been considering the general question of when human life begins for quite a few years. The argument put forward in the white paper has grown out of discussions with philosophers, scientists and ethicists, as well as out of my own research in this area.

    Yet this topic has come to the fore in the lead-up to the presidential election. While the topic of when life begins has generally been avoided by politicians and government officials, recently a number of prominent figures have offered their interpretations, making this a timely subject to consider with scientific rigor and neutrality.

    • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/20/2009 4:16:20 PM

      Q: You define the moment of conception as the second it takes for the sperm and egg to fuse and form a zygote. What were the scientific principles you used to arrive at this conclusion?

      Condic: The central question of "when does human life begin" can be stated in a somewhat different way: When do sperm and egg cease to be, and what kind of thing takes their place once they cease to be?

      To address this question scientifically, we need to rely on sound scientific argument and on the factual evidence. Scientists make distinctions between different cell types (for example, sperm, egg and the cell they produce at fertilization) based on two simple criteria: Cells are known to be different because they are made of different components and because they behave in distinct ways.

      These two criteria are used throughout the scientific enterprise to distinguish one cell type from another, and they are the basis of all scientific (as opposed to arbitrary, faith-based or political) distinctions. I have applied these two criteria to the scientific data concerning fertilization, and they are the basis for the conclusion that a new human organism comes into existence at the moment of sperm-egg fusion.

      Q: Many in the scientific world would say that fertilization doesn't happen in a moment, but rather that it is a process that comes to an end at the end of the first cell cycle, which is 24 hours later. Why is it important to define a "moment of conception," as opposed to a "process of fertilization"?

      Condic: It is not important to somehow define a "moment" or a "process" of fertilization in the abstract. It is important to base conclusions and judgments about human embryos on sound scientific reasoning and on the best available scientific evidence.

      Had this analysis led to a different conclusion -- for example, that fertilization is a "process" -- I would have accepted this conclusion as scientifically valid. However, a scientific analysis of the best available data does not support the conclusion that fertilization is a "process"; it supports the conclusion that fertilization is an event that takes less than a second to complete.

      The events of the first 24 hours following sperm-egg fusion are clearly unique, but they are also clearly acts of a human organism, not acts of a mere human cell.

      • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/20/2009 4:26:20 PM

        Q: Do opinion, belief and politics have a place in defining the beginning of a new life? How is it that the topic has become an issue of debate?

        Condic: The topic of when human life begins is an issue of debate because it has strong implications for public policy on matters that concern many people; abortion, in-vitro fertilization and human embryo research. How "opinion, belief and politics" have assumed such a large role in deciding when life begins is a question for a sociologist or a psychologist, not a biologist!

        It is important to appreciate that the scientific facts are themselves entirely neutral; they are simply a reflection of the way the world is, as opposed to how we may wish or imagine it to be.

        That is not to say that the scientific facts lend equal support to any and all views of when human life begins. While people are free to formulate their opinion on when human life begins in any manner they choose (including belief and politics), not all opinions are equally consistent with factual reality. Those who choose to ignore the facts cannot expect their opinions to garner as much respect or to be given as much credibility as those who base their opinions in sound scientific observation and analysis.

        The opinions of members of the flat-Earth society should not carry as much weight as those of astrophysicists in formulating national aerospace policy. The opinions of those who reject the scientific evidence concerning when life begins should not be the basis of public policy on embryo-related topics, either.

        • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/20/2009 4:59:48 PM

          Q: Who needs to read this paper and why?

          Condic: I think every person who is concerned about the important "life-issues" of health care, abortion, assisted reproduction and stem-cell research should read this article, because understanding when life begins is the basis of a sound political, ethical and moral debate on these complex and difficult topics. Certainly, all those charged with the formation of public policy on these matters should read this argument and think seriously about its implications. If we cannot know what a human embryo is and when it comes into existence, we cannot make sound judgments regarding any of the issues surrounding the human embryo.

          Q: What reactions have you received to the conclusions of your paper? What do you hope will result from its publication?

          Condic: Thus far, reactions have been thoughtful and considered. I hope this will continue and that a clear understanding of the relevant scientific evidence will help ground future public policy debates over embryo-related issues in sound scientific fact -- rather than in mere "opinion, belief and politics."

          --- --- ---

          On the Net:

          "When Does Human Life Begin?": http://www.westchesterinstitute.net/index.php?

          • Posted By: bjsassy @ 02/21/2009 11:47:08 AM

            I am so glad that I came back for another look at the comments. Your postings are a breath of fresh air. It is an oasis of sanity, logic and truth. Thank you.

          • Posted By: bjsassy @ 02/21/2009 11:44:14 AM

            I am so glad that I came back here to have a last look at the comments. Your postings are like a breathe of fresh air. It is an oasis of sanity, logic and truth. Thank you.

  • Posted By: Singularity @ 02/11/2009 8:14:57 PM

    In the name of Christ Jesus, if you respond to the name HarleyisHere, be silent and go from here now.

    It is written, do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.

    • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/11/2009 8:45:47 PM

      "In the name of Christ Jesus, if you respond to the name HarleyisHere, be silent and go from here now. "

      Wow an exorcist is onlne. Somebody get the pea soup and spinning doll head.

      Why would anyone care about something being said in the name of a dead charismatic rabbi?

      "It is written, do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked."

      Sure god can be mocked. Any man-made deity can be mocked.

      • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/12/2009 1:13:38 PM

        So is that your purpose on this blog ConL is to mock what you don't believe in because you don't believe it exist? We all may differ in what we believe but it is unlike you to be directly offensive to some who believe and mean no harm!

        If we are to be civil then let us respond in a civil manner. Your comment about a dead charismatic rabbi reminds me of another person I use to debate on these sites. Did you change your name? I would agree with you that any man-made deity can be mocked...but when we talk aboug God we are talking about the living God and not something we made up within our minds! If you don't believe in HIm then so be it, but it doesn't make Him less real!

        Just think if God is not real then we Christians are to be the most pitied creatures upon this face of the earth. Now think what if you and others who don't believe find out that He is real! Then what this person posted is true and God cannot be mocked! Selah....let us keep it civil.... I have a lot of respect for you because I know that you don't lack wisdom but you have failed to apply that wisdom here when replying to this post.

        Debating is a game itself and you are better than that! You purposely withold information in order for the other to show their hand and then try to overwhelm then with your knowledge.... good tactic but not always effective in my opinion.

        • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/12/2009 1:33:33 PM

          "So is that your purpose on this blog ConL is to mock what you don't believe in because you don't believe it exist? We all may differ in what we believe but it is unlike you to be directly offensive to some who believe and mean no harm! "

          When singularity posts like a cheap revival tent preacher:
          "In the name of Christ Jesus, if you respond to the name HarleyisHere, be silent and go from here now.

          It is written, do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked."

          The idea of God deserves to be mocked. When you and I talk about God in more straightforward terms, then I would naot say that god deserves to be mocked.


          "Your comment about a dead charismatic rabbi reminds me of another person I use to debate on these sites. Did you change your name?"

          I assume you mean Ghostmasseur. I am not him, but I actually do know him in the real world. He is actualyl fairly well known and respected in his academic fields. And we had studied under a couple of the same professors many years ago but at slightly different times (his during his primary stuidies and mine as secondary interest studies). I have met him several times at academic conferences, and shared drink with him after hours. We hope someday to get together outside of work, and my wife hopes to meet him. Two years ago he recommended that I teach a mini- course on online communications, and once he heard that I was doing so this semester, he actually emailed me about these threads. We tend to agree on most issues and have somewhat similar backgrounds. We just teach different subjects in academia.

          "I would agree with you that any man-made deity can be mocked...but when we talk aboug God we are talking about the living God and not something we made up within our minds! If you don't believe in HIm then so be it, but it doesn't make Him less real! "

          That makes no sense. Just because you do believe in him does not make him any more real. When someone like singularity says "god is not to be mocked", that is a statement of belief, not fact. Of course he can be mocked. Although the reality is that it is not really god who is being mocked but the ideas of revival tent preachers like singularity that is being mocked. Not the person, the ideas.

          "Just think if God is not real then we Christians are to be the most pitied creatures upon this face of the earth."

          Not at all. If he is not real and your belief in him has been your catalyst to do good things and has brought you personal joy and happiness, then you have lost nothing.

          "Now think what if you and others who don't believe find out that He is real! Then what this person posted is true and God cannot be mocked!"

          That makes no sense. If science ever proved that your god existed then there would be no reason to mock him.

          • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/18/2009 10:57:08 AM

            Yes as I have posted before both of you think alike and that is why I assumed that you were him.

            "I would agree with you that any man-made deity can be mocked...but when we talk aboug God we are talking about the living God and not something we made up within our minds! If you don't believe in HIm then so be it, but it doesn't make Him less real! "

            That makes no sense. Just because you do believe in him does not make him any more real. When someone like singularity says "god is not to be mocked", that is a statement of belief, not fact. Of course he can be mocked. Although the reality is that it is not really god who is being mocked but the ideas of revival tent preachers like singularity that is being mocked. Not the person, the ideas.

            It makes sense because God is real! When someone says that God is not real, this is a statement of belief and not fact. The ideas of the person who posted are not his own it is written in scripture and he or she used scriptures to warn those who carelessly speak against God.

            "Just think if God is not real then we Christians are to be the most pitied creatures upon this face of the earth."

            Not at all. If he is not real and your belief in him has been your catalyst to do good things and has brought you personal joy and happiness, then you have lost nothing.

            Then we would be no better than the heathen who has no purpose in this life. What would restrain mankind if they didn???t believe that one day they are to give an account for how they lived on this planet? Living a vain life is not logical to those who know that God is real!

            "Now think what if you and others who don't believe find out that He is real! Then what this person posted is true and God cannot be mocked!"

            That makes no sense. If science ever proved that your god existed then there would be no reason to mock him.

            It makes sense, but your statement doesn???t make sense. Science doesn???t have to prove to others that God exist. What people accept before they believe is totally up to them and not science. God can show up before science proves to the unbeliever that He exists. So what will the unbeliever say then? I don???t believe in you because science hasn???t proven to me that you existed! Then it will be to late for those to say I will not mock you now God! When does the truth become the truth? When a person finds out the truth or has it been the truth all along? Finding a truth that people have been rejecting all along just demonstrates that they have been living a lie and like a fool! Selah!

            • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/20/2009 11:15:03 AM

              "It makes sense because God is real!"
              That is your belief is it not fact.

              "When someone says that God is not real, this is a statement of belief and not fact."

              True. I have never said that there is proof that god does not exist, just that by the same token there is no proof that he does. But since there is not proof that he does eixist, then it make logical sense to assume that he does not.

              "The ideas of the person who posted are not his own it is written in scripture and he or she used scriptures to warn those who carelessly speak against God. "

              But that assumes that scripture has any legitimate value for those who do not bleive in god. It has very little. Almost all of the ethical constructs that is has can be found elsewhere. And the theological stuff is of no value to those wh do not believe in it.

              "Then we would be no better than the heathen who has no purpose in this life. What would restrain mankind if they didn???t believe that one day they are to give an account for how they lived on this planet?"

              Simple human ethics. Learned over time. Things that benefit socieity and what does not. One does not need to belive in deities to have a purpse. To insinuate otherwise is asinine at best. I live an ethical life because as a civilized human being I hold my self to account to not harm others or the planet. My own conscience (which according to what many others, including clerics have told me is a good and postive one) holds me to account. I do things to benefit society not for rewards or praise but because the alternative is to not be able to look at myself in the mirror at the end of the day. And that is a lot stronger incentive than any "eternal reward". Although some of my friends kids have said that they learned to strengthen their determination to always try to do their best to do good, and to do it puely for the sake of doing good, from me. So I guess that I do have some "eternal reward" if they pass that lesson to future generations.

              • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/20/2009 1:20:47 PM

                "It makes sense because God is real!"
                That is your belief is it not fact.

                This belief is based on facts that have happened in my life. So when you assume people who say that God has changed their life you only need to examine how their life was before and see the change that has happen since they allowed God to come into their life.

                "When someone says that God is not real, this is a statement of belief and not fact."

                True. I have never said that there is proof that god does not exist, just that by the same token there is no proof that he does. But since there is not proof that he does exist, then it make logical sense to assume that he does not.

                Proof is subjective to the eye of the beholder. Irrefutable proof will not even persuade the hardliners who doesn???t want to believe. Therefore unbelief is the real problem and not proof or irrefutable proof! Being in a state of unbelief is a choice one makes and either they harden their stance by refuting, fighting and arguing all things that come against their unbelief.

                "The ideas of the person who posted are not his own it is written in scripture and he or she used scriptures to warn those who carelessly speak against God. "

                But that assumes that scripture has any legitimate value for those who do not bleive in god. It has very little. Almost all of the ethical constructs that is has can be found elsewhere. And the theological stuff is of no value to those wh do not believe in it.

                Whether you believe in it or not one should realize if they are being offensive to those of faith. Also those of faith should acknowledge those who do not believe as they do and try not to be offensive. Offenses will occur on both sides especially when ones foundation of belief is attacked this goes for Atheist and Christians alike. This person didn???t use this statement to attack but to warn others who he or she deemed mocking God.

                • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/22/2009 11:36:57 AM

                  "This belief is based on facts that have happened in my life. So when you assume people who say that God has changed their life you only need to examine how their life was before and see the change that has happen since they allowed God to come into their life. "

                  You bring up an interesting issue. I am not saying that their belief that god entered their lives did not result in change. Note that I am saying "their belief". It is only their belief that god came into their lives. That is faith and that is fine for them. It still does nothing to prove that god exists outside of their own imagination. If they want to believe in god that is their right (I have always said that). But that belief cannot be used as universal proof. It is proof only for those who already believe. And that too is fine.

                  "Irrefutable proof will not even persuade the hardliners who doesn???t want to believe. "

                  You cannot validly make that statement. Since there has been no irrefutable proof, they have not had a chance to have their viewpoint challenged. Every atheist that I know (and several ofthem would qualify as hardliners to you) have all said that if there ever was irrefutable proof they would accept it.

                  "Therefore unbelief is the real problem and not proof or irrefutable proof!"

                  It is only a problem in the eyes of those who believe in god, not in any universal sense.

                  "Being in a state of unbelief is a choice one makes and either they harden their stance by refuting, fighting and arguing all things that come against their unbelief. "

                  The exact same thing can be said about belief in god.


                  "Whether you believe in it or not one should realize if they are being offensive to those of faith. Also those of faith should acknowledge those who do not believe as they do and try not to be offensive."

                  Valid point.

                  "This person didn???t use this statement to attack but to warn others who he or she deemed mocking God.


                  What did he/she say:
                  "In the name of Christ Jesus, if you respond to the name HarleyisHere, be silent and go from here now. "

                  Telling Harley to be silent is a form of attack. Now I am not arguing that Harley is not obnoxious at times, but he has as much right to post here as anyone else. "Be silent and go from here now" is effectively telling Harley that he has no right to speak. That is an attack.


                  "It is written, do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked."

                  My response was:
                  "Sure God can be mocked. Any man-made deity can be mocked".

                  That is my opinion and a valid response to his/her claim that god cannot be mocked.

            • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/20/2009 11:15:30 AM

              "Living a vain life is not logical to those who know that God is real! "

              It is not a vain life so your comment is invalid. I know very few atheists who live a vain life. They do "do it because it feels good". They take careful consideration into everything they do. They make sure that they do not harm others. They do good and give their time to others purely because they feel an obligation to help. I have seen a lot more vain believers who spend all their time condemning those who do not believe as they do instead of doing real help for others.

              "Science doesn't have to prove to others that God exist."
              Not for you or for thsoe who believe but it does for others.

              "God can show up before science proves to the unbeliever that He exists."

              If god actually showed up then there would be scientific proof.

              "So what will the unbeliever say then? I don't believe in you because science hasn't proven to me that you existed! "

              Nope. We would say, hey, now there is irrefutable scientific proof.

              "Finding a truth that people have been rejecting all along just demonstrates that they have been living a lie and like a fool!"

              If your belief has inspired you to do good then you have not been like a fool. Don't be so hard on yourself. And if you truly believe in your god then he exists in your imagination so it is not a lie for you. You can be happy. Hooahh!

              • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/20/2009 12:27:56 PM

                "Living a vain life is not logical to those who know that God is real! "

                It is not a vain life so your comment is invalid.

                If you look at my comment I was talking from the believer???s point of view so it is valid in that perspective.

                I know very few atheists who live a vain life. They do "do it because it feels good". They take careful consideration into everything they do. They make sure that they do not harm others. They do good and give their time to others purely because they feel an obligation to help. I have seen a lot more vain believers who spend all their time condemning those who do not believe as they do instead of doing real help for others.

                A Vain Believer! This statement itself is an oxymoron! As for condemning others, you should know that no Christian can condemn others that job is Gods all alone. A Christian can point out what is right and what is wrong according to the standards that God has outline in his word. This usually results in people feeling condemnation coming from the Christian themselves. Telling someone the truth is the best thing a Christian or anyone can do for another as long as they use tact in doing this.

                "Science doesn't have to prove to others that God exist."
                Not for you or for those who believe but it does for others.

                Then this goes back to my point of you using science as your god, and we know that science is not infallible.

                • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/20/2009 12:37:07 PM

                  "God can show up before science proves to the unbeliever that He exists."

                  If god actually showed up then there would be scientific proof.

                  No it would be the end for unbelief and atheism. It would just show you that you have ignored His creation and all other things that He said testify of Him in the following scripture.

                  Rom.1
                  [18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
                  [19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
                  [20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
                  [21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
                  [22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

                  "So what will the unbeliever say then? I don't believe in you because science hasn't proven to me that you existed! "

                  Nope. We would say, hey, now there is irrefutable scientific proof.

                  LOL???I doubt that you would say that! It would be more like these Christians, as crazy as they seem to be are right! LOL! But then according to scriptures it would be too late for you and others. So with this in mind we pesky Christian persists in these types of debates, witnessing and proselytizing not wanting any to be without God for eternity.

                  "Finding a truth that people have been rejecting all along just demonstrates that they have been living a lie and like a fool!"

                  If your belief has inspired you to do good then you have not been like a fool. Don't be so hard on yourself. And if you truly believe in your god then he exists in your imagination so it is not a lie for you. You can be happy. Hooahh!

                  That statement was not for me it was for those who finally acknowledge the truth that they have been denying. That HOOAHH! Makes me wonder if you was in the army or not. I spent 24 years in the Army and I???m retired now and still working for the government.

  • Posted By: cbrown82 @ 02/20/2009 6:07:17 PM

    Begging the question...
    Given the use of the term "personal" to define a woman's choice to use RU-486 as an abortifacient, Anna Quindlen's article begs two important questions. First, how is she defining "person"? And secondly, how does the human body feature in her definition? Her reference to a woman's pelvis as "property, whether "public" or otherwise, presumes a dualistic view of the human being: the "person-ness" is exclusively located in the power of choice, and the human body is a possession.
    The problem is that persons don't HAVE bodies. They ARE bodies. I can speak of MY body, but only with the realization that I don't own it like a football. If I decided to throw my body out of a window, my "person" would not wait patiently on the sill while it fell. Contrary to Descartes' interesting but utterly unpragmatic hypothesis about the superfluity of the body as opposed to the intellect, thinking is an always-already embodied act for humans. Everything I do is a lived statement about what I understand "person" to mean. If that's true about picking up the mail and the dry-cleaning, how much more when weighing another person in the balance?

  • Posted By: cbrown82 @ 02/20/2009 5:46:58 PM

    Begging the question....
    Given her premise that a woman's pelvis is "property" (whether "public" or otherwise), Quindlen's use of the term "personal" at the close of this essay begs two questions. First, how is she defining "person"? And secondly, how does the human body feature in that definition?
    It appears that Quindlen's defense of RU-486 is built on a dualistic view of the human being: my body is something I have (a possession). But using the word "property" in reference to a woman's physiology, and particularly in reference to her fertility, is not only crass, it's bad anthropology. If I decided to throw my body from a window, my "person" would not wait patiently on the sill. I don't HAVE a body, I AM a body. So everything I do as a body says a whole lot about what I understand "person" to mean. If I'm living a statement about personhood when I pick up the mail and the dry-cleaning, how much more when I'm choosing to end another person's life?

  • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/20/2009 3:58:11 PM

    Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni, professor of obstetrics, University of Pennsylvania:

    "I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood and any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes a termination of human life."

    Dr. Jerome LeJeune, genetics professor at the University of Descartes in Paris (discoverer of the Down Syndrome chromosome):

    "After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being. . . . This is no longer a matter of taste or opinion. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception."

    Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School:

    "It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception."

    Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic:

    "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."

    Dr. Watson A. Bowes, University of Colorado Medical School:

    "The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter???the beginning is conception."

    Dr. Landrum Shettles, pioneer in sperm biology, fertility and sterility, discoverer of male- and female-producing sperm:

    "I oppose abortion. I do so, first, because I accept what is biologically manifest???that human life commences at the time of conception???and, second, because I believe it is wrong to take innocent human life under any circumstances."

  • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/20/2009 3:55:56 PM

    Constitutional Lover,

    What kind of scientist are you quoting to say that life doesn???t begin at conception but after birth? Are they human embryologist? Then if they are not what credit or validity are their statements?

    Human embryologist Bruce Carlson, in his 1994 textbook: "Human Embryology and Developmental Biology", states in his opening sentence: "Human pregnancy begins with the fusion of the egg and the sperm. . ."[2]. This is so because the concern of Human Embryology is the human embryo whether it be in the fallopian tube, uterus, ectopically placed or in a petri dish. Additionally, for a pregnant woman, the expected time of delivery, fertilization age, time of gestation, or, the period of confinement is always calculated so that the time of pregnancy begins at fertilization.

    The idea that pregnancy begins at implantation of the embryo in the uterus was generated more than 3 decades ago. At that time there were concerns about the actions of chemical contraceptives. Albert Rosenfeld wrote in his book: "Second Genesis" (1969):

    Because these substances do not prevent the sperm from penetrating and fertilizing the ovum - the classic definition of conception - they are not strictly contraceptives. What they do is prevent the newly fertilized egg from implanting itself in the uterus. Since the interference occurs after conception, some hold that such practice constitutes abortion. A way around this impasse has been suggested by Dr. A.S. Parkes of Cambridge: Equate conception with the time of implantation rather than the time of fertilization - a difference of only a few days" 3 (my emphasis). Thus, a fact of science gave way to political correctness.

    http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/kisc/kisc_04whenlifebegins1.html

  • Posted By: kri5t3n @ 02/13/2009 10:23:29 AM

    "Never has the word "choice" been so clear"

    People are so keen on the word "choice". They want to make the choice.

    What about the choice of the baby? I hardly doubt that the baby would want to commit suicide.

    What about the choice of responsible people who cannot have babies and there only option is adoption. Do they make the choice of not being able to adopt a child because every unwanted pregnancy is now flushed down the toilet?

    I guess choosing to commit murder is becoming an easy "choice" now. More private and cozy in your own home, watching TV or reading a book.

    • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/13/2009 2:40:04 PM

      "What about the choice of the baby? I hardly doubt that the baby would want to commit suicide. "

      Since it is not a baby but a fetus it has no say in the matter.

      "What about the choice of responsible people who cannot have babies and there only option is adoption. Do they make the choice of not being able to adopt a child because every unwanted pregnancy is now flushed down the toilet?"

      That is garbage. There are far more children available for adoption even with abortion being done than there are people willing to adopt them. Without abortion there would be even more children waiting for adoption.

      "I guess choosing to commit murder is becoming an easy "choice" now."
      Since it is not murder that comment is garbage, it can be ignored.

      • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/17/2009 12:35:03 PM

        "What about the choice of the baby? I hardly doubt that the baby would want to commit suicide. "

        Since it is not a baby but a fetus it has no say in the matter.

        Same reasoning Hitler use to kill millions of Jews, dehumanize anyone and it open market on the extermination, genocide of what is deem undesirable to those who want to act like God in determining what value a life has???.Selah!

        "What about the choice of responsible people who cannot have babies and there only option is adoption. Do they make the choice of not being able to adopt a child because every unwanted pregnancy is now flushed down the toilet?"

        That is garbage. There are far more children available for adoption even with abortion being done than there are people willing to adopt them. Without abortion there would be even more children waiting for adoption.

        Right! That is why thousands of couples go out of country to adopt children because they aren???t willing to adopt! It is the laws that make it harder to adopt that stifles the adoptions within the states. Hmmmm there is no way to prove the last statement since the voices of those children have been made silent. So now you are calling the unborn children? LOL, make up your mind!

        "I guess choosing to commit murder is becoming an easy "choice" now."

        Since it is not murder that comment is garbage, it can be ignored.

        Ok let"s call it something suitable for you and others to swallow. Termination of the less than human! How does that sound?

        • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/18/2009 10:22:48 AM

          "So now you are calling the unborn children? LOL, make up your mind!"

          Not at all. Once they are born they are children. I said that if they had not been aborted they wouldhave devloiped nd THEN been children.

          "Ok let"s call it something suitable for you and others to swallow. Termination of the less than human! How does that sound? "

          How about calling it what it is. Terminating a preganancy. Nothing more, nothing less.

          • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/20/2009 3:20:30 PM

            Without abortion there would be even more children waiting for adoption.

            Hmmm ok I will let you slide with this one then.... I thought you was actually warming up and growing a heart for the unborn.....

            Terminating a pregnancy......which in turn terminates the life of the unborn......no matter how you frame it the unborn is a life! Nothing more, nothing less.

  • Posted By: Gregor S. @ 02/07/2009 7:10:05 PM

    The responsible action would be to continue with the undeniable fact of a pregnacy, a biologically individual person within a mothers womb. President Obama wants to educate and encourage adoption over abortion. That is reponsible action, awareness and acceptance of a mother's position whether public or private.

    • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/11/2009 9:24:46 AM

      "with the undeniable fact of a pregnacy, a biologically individual person within a mothers womb. "

      That is not an undeniable fact.

      • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/12/2009 6:15:14 PM

        so what is inside the women's womb? Is it a frog, a collection of cells, goat, pig, or another type of beast? So out of all the women that have become pregnant in the world which one of them gave birth to something other than a human being?

        • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/13/2009 8:41:47 AM

          I goofed and did not finish my answer.

          I was meanig to say that there is a potential individual person, but not yet a viable one and not one with any legal rights. Often anti-abortion advocates use the term that the OP used as their jsutification to prohibit all abortions. I was meaning to refute THAT assertion, not that over time a fetus develops and is a person once born.

          • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/13/2009 1:10:11 PM

            We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

            I'm sure that you are familiar with this, so tell me something! Does this pertain to only those people who were living back then or did it pertain to those who would live in the future?

            • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/13/2009 3:24:46 PM

              Only someone who does not understnad the US Constitution would try to misuse in that way.

              It is not deserving of further comment.

              • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/19/2009 5:42:54 PM

                LOL not a misuse just a question that begs a answer that you cannot give without acknowledging the unborn!

                • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/19/2009 9:13:21 PM

                  "LOL not a misuse just a question that begs a answer that you cannot give without acknowledging the unborn!"

                  I stand by me statement tghat anyone who understands the US Constutition would already know the answer. But since you seem not to know it. here you go. Actually it is very easy to explain. Originally it was talknig almost entirely about white men. As time has continued it is now is talking about those who are persons in the legal sense of the word. Those who are born.

                  • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/20/2009 11:36:39 AM

                    Wrong! It didn't mention color of any kind when it was written and all means all and that is all that all means nothing else. Now if you are going to go on a rant saying that it was never applied to blacks or women until slavery and the right to vote was given then save your breathe.

                    Something that is clearly stated yet not executed to the extent of prejudice people carrying it out then that is the fault of ignorance. This document clearly shows that all were to be inclusive of every race of people. We have fought wars over this right to be equal and it has been address by Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King and others.

                    Simply using exegesis and not applying eisegesis to the document as you have done will show the hermeneutic flow acknowledging a Creator giving these rights. Since you and other don???t believe in a Creator nor shall I say God you read into the text to misinterpret as saying God???s intention didn???t include everyone. This goes against the very nature of God and scriptures showing that God has no respect of persons and all are created in His image. It is clear to me that the author acknowledges God???s point of view when looking at mankind and therefore they held these truths to be self-evident. Self-evident, means to be apparent, obvious without explanation or proof.

                    As for those who are born comment! If we take your eisegesis point of view we could look at it this way and say being born would be the criteria for their existence. But since the word created is used in the text we will go by God???s point of view acknowledging even your children???s children shall have the same rights. It talks about those who are not even born yet. God is the subject in which you constantly ignore and legality has nothing to do with what God has deemed to be a person before birth. It is amazing that John the Baptist acknowledge Jesus as Lord while both were yet in the womb, Luke 1:44.

                    If it only applies to those who are born then we would have to go back and say those who are born then have these rights and not those who are going to be born in the future! So it is talking about the unborn and future citizens not yet born.

                    So in saying all of this I say that the right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness belongs to all those created by their Creator. When we stop the process of creation within the womb we are denying them their basic right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

  • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/19/2009 5:58:33 PM

    What happened tot he other comments?

  • Posted By: Austenite1 @ 02/10/2009 10:02:20 PM

    Every Age has a category of human beings it considers sub-human in order to kiill, enslave or abuse that category. Guess whose turn it is in our Age? Think about it...not even pain control for a fetus, yes it is more alive than you or me, seeing more changes in a day than you or I do in a year. And after 13 weeks feels more acute pain than you or I, because the pain receptors are developed but not the natural pain inhibitors, not until 39-40 weeks.
    The 'blob of tissue' generation, like Anna Q., doesn't keep up with Fetology.
    Check it out yourselves on the Web, Why are we afraid of the Truth?
    For those who had/been involved in abortion, GOD IS MERCIFUL - never despair.

    • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/11/2009 3:58:24 PM

      "For those who had/been involved in abortion, GOD IS MERCIFUL - never despair."

      They have nothing to despair about. They have done nothing wrong.

      • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/11/2009 5:56:03 PM

        Hundreds of women who have had abortions were sampled by the postabortion
        researchers at the Elliot Institute for Social Science Research. They
        report the following statistics:
        ??????90% suffer damage in their self-esteem
        ??????50% begin or increase alcohol and drugs
        ??????60% report suicidal ideation
        ??????28% actually attempt suicide
        ??????20% suffer full blown post traumatic stress disorder
        ??????50% report some symptoms of PTSD
        ??????52% felt pressured by others to have the abort

        The suicide/abortion link is well known among professionals who counsel
        suicidal persons. Meta Uchtman, director of Suicide Anonymous in Cincinnati,
        reported that over a 35 month period her group had worked with 4,000 women,
        of whom nearly half were calling in despair after terminating a pregnancy. Of
        those who had abortions, 1,400 were between the ages of 15 and 24, the age
        group with the fastest-growing suicide rate in the country.

        As a psychologist dealing with abortion traumas, I have heard many
        individual stories. The women tell of pain, grief and sadness after losing a child
        whom they felt, for one reason or another, they could not bring into this world.
        Post Abortion Syndrome is a type of post-traumatic stress disorder which is
        brought about by stress involved in the abortion itself. Common in the post abortion patient are grief and heartache over the procedure and feelings of loss and victimization. Even more important, however, is her inability to process the trauma and its accompanying feelings because of denying and repressing her thoughts and feelings about the event.

        www.rachelsvineyard.org/PDF/Articles/Abortion%20and%20Post%20Traumatic%20Stress%20Disord...

        • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/11/2009 9:26:55 PM

          As for Post Abortion Syndrome .

          It is joke. No legitimate Psychogical or Psychiatric organization recognizes it and several studied have proven that it does not exist. The American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association do not recognize PAS as an actual diagnosis or condition, and it is not included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders DSM-IV-TR or in the ICD-10 list of psychiatric conditions.

          According to the American Psychological Association, various factors, such as emotional attachment to the pregnancy, prior mentalillness, lack of familial and or societal support and/or conservative views on abortion, may increase the likelihood of experiencing negative reactions, but those views are not the norm.

          A 1990 study by Nancy Adler determined the same percetnage of women who experience "distress" after abortion is that same as those who experience distress after childbirth.

          In 2008, Charles, VE; Polis, CB; Sridhara, SK; Blum, RW , a team at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, reviewed 21 studies involving more than 150,000 women, and determined: "The best quality studies indicate no significant differences in long-term mental health between women in the United States who choose to terminate a pregnancy and those who do not." (Abortion and long-term mental health outcomes: a systematic review of the evidence
          Contraception, Volume 78, Issue 6, December 2008, Pages 436-450). ] Dr. Robert Blum, the senior author on the study, stated: "The best research does not support the existence of a 'post-abortion syndrome' similar to post-traumatic stress disorder."


          The fact is that the evidence proves that the majority of women suffer no ill effects.

          • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/12/2009 4:48:54 PM

            Criticism of DSM
            Beginning with the problem that there is no single objective diagnostic test for a mental illness in the field of psychiatry ??? a problem the DSM sidesteps by referring only to "mental disorders", defined modestly as dysfunctional psychological or behavioral patterns ??? the DSM-IV has come under various criticisms over the years. It has been argued the design of the DSM and the expansion of the criteria represents an increasing medicalization of human nature, or "disease mongering", driven by drug company influence on psychiatry.The potential for direct conflict of interest has been raised, partly because roughly half the authors who selected and defined the DSM-IV psychiatric disorders have or previously had financial relationships with the pharmaceutical industry.[38] The president of the organization which designs and publishes the DSM, the American Psychiatric Association, recently acknowledged in general American psychiatry has "allowed the biopsychosocial model to become the bio-bio-bio model" and routinely accepted "kickbacks and bribes" from pharmaceutical companies.
            There has also been continuing scientific doubt concerning the construct validity and reliability of the diagnostic categories and criteria in the DSM even though they have been increasingly standardized to improve inter-rater agreement in controlled research. It has been argued the DSM's claims to being empirically founded are overstated in general. Reliance on operational definitions demand intuitive concepts, such as depression need to be operationally defined before they become amenable to scientific investigation. Such definitions are used as a follow up to a conceptual definition, in which the specific concept is defined as a measurable occurrence. John Stuart Mill pointed out the dangers of believing anything that could be given a name must refer to a thing and Stephen Jay Gould and others have criticized psychologists for doing just that. A committed operationalist would respond that speculation about the thing in itself, or noumenon, should be resisted as meaningless, and would comment only on phenomena using operationally defined terms and tables of operationally defined measurements. This line of criticism has also appeared in non-specialist venues. In 1997 Harper's Magazine published an essay under the format of a book review of the DSM-IV that criticized the lack of hard science and the proliferation of disorders. The language of the manual was described as "simultaneously precise and vague", and the manual itself compared to "a militia's Web page, insofar as it constitutes an alternative reality under siege," and a "fertilizer bomb" against hard science.

            • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/12/2009 4:54:47 PM

              Despite caveats in the introduction to the DSM, it has long been argued its system of classification makes unjustified categorical distinctions between disorders, and between normal and abnormal. Although the DSM-V may move away from this categorical approach in some limited areas, some argue a fully dimensional, spectrum or complaint-oriented approach would better reflect the evidence.

              It has been argued that purely symptom-based diagnostic criteria fail to adequately take into account the context in which a person is living, and to what extent there is internal disorder of an individual or a psychological response to adverse situations. It is claimed the use of distress and disability as additional criteria for many disorders has not solved this false-positives problem, because the level of impairment is often not correlated with symptom counts and can stem from various individual and social factors.

              Similarly, it has been argued that the DSM fails to identify what lies beneath patterns of symptoms or relations between disorders. Being based on appearances, it is said to be like a naturalist???s field guide to birds, with similar advantages and disadvantages. However, key figures in the development of the modern DSM argue that "...little progress has been made toward understanding the pathophysiological processes and etiology of mental disorders. If anything, the research has shown the situation is even more complex than initially imagined, and we believe not enough is known to structure the classification of psychiatric disorders according to etiology."

              • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/12/2009 4:56:11 PM

                Some argue that the existing scheme does not take an integrated evolutionary approach to the conditions it classifies. It is claimed it is "not guided by any theory about the structure and functioning of normal minds," and fails to make distinctions between those conditions which are "malfunctions" in the cognitive machinery and those which are evolved psychological adaptations. Some argue these distinctions have real implications for diagnosis and treatment, but there is also debate about their implications and the value judgements involved.

                There is scientific and political controversy regarding the continued inclusion of sex-related diagnoses such as the paraphilias (sexual fetishes) and female hypoactive sexual desire disorder (low female sex drive). Some cite the APA's decision to remove homosexuality from the DSM as evidence the APA incorrectly referred to these states of being or orientations as mental illnesses. Religious groups argue that homosexuality should never have been removed and that it meets the criteria for being a mental disorder.

                Other conditions formerly classified as mental include epilepsy and the circadian rhythm sleep disorders.
                The DSM has been criticized for using criteria, definitions and terminology which are inconsistent with a recovery model, and it can therefore hinder recovery. It has been suggested the DSM-V requires greater sensitivity to cultural issues and gender; needs to recognise the need for others to change as well as just those diagnosed with DSM disorders; and needs to adopt a dimensional approach in a way that better captures individuality and does not erroneously imply excess psychopathology or chronicity.

                • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/13/2009 8:08:53 AM

                  Except that sice there have been several other independent studies and research (none of the research you quoted can be considered independent since they awere all done by groups itent on making abortion illegal) that debunk the syndrome it appears that he DSM is correct this time.

                  • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/13/2009 12:25:22 PM

                    It appears that they are correct! Hmmmm we cannot go on mere appearances now can we? Where is the irrefutable evidence that you were demanding from me? Shouldn't they be more precise in their analysis than just merely appearing to be right?

                    Isa.5
                    [20] Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

                    • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/13/2009 3:13:16 PM

                      "It appears that they are correct! Hmmmm we cannot go on mere appearances now can we? Where is the irrefutable evidence that you were demanding from me? Shouldn't they be more precise in their analysis than just merely appearing to be right? "

                      Actually I should not have used the word "appears". These studies have shown that based on the current evidence the DSM IS correct on this issue. The evidence has shown, in multiple independenlty run (studies run by those that did not set out to prove a specific finding which the studies you quoted did) that there is not such thing as PAS. Show me the multiple independent studies that show that only god could ahve done something. They do not exist.

                      As for your Isaiah quote, who cares. It is just religious fantasy. Nothing to take seriously.

                      • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/18/2009 12:01:47 PM

                        One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest?
                        by Rich Deem

                        No, this page is not about the 1975 movie staring Jack Nicholson. However, atheists are up in arms thinking that Professor Antony Flew has lost his mind. Flew, age 81, has been a legendary proponent and debater for atheism for decades, stating that "onus of proof [of God] must lie upon the theist."1 However, in 2004, Prof. Flew did the unheard of action of renouncing his atheism because "the argument to Intelligent Design is enormously stronger than it was when I first met it."2 In a recent interview, Flew stated, "It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design." Flew also renounced naturalistic theories of evolution:

                        "It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism."3

                        In Flew???s own words, he simply "had to go where the evidence leads."4 According to Flew, "...it seems to me that the case for an Aristotelian God who has the characteristics of power and also intelligence, is now much stronger than it ever was before."2 Flew also indicated that he liked arguments that proceeded from big bang cosmology. However, Antony Flew does not believe in the existence of a good God who is involved in the lives of human beings, because of the problem of evil. He ascribes very much to the God of Einstein and Spinoza, who created the universe and life on earth and left the scene. He does not believe in an afterlife.

                        For a man who has spent decades promoting atheism, this decision came as quite a shock to atheists and theists alike. As a former agnostic, I followed a similar path through my undergraduate studies in biology. I became a deist in 1973 after realizing that the naturalistic theories on the origin of life were not plausible. Today, the evidence against abiogenesis is much stronger than even at that time. Therefore, I believe that, at a minimum, deism is the logical choice regarding the question of God.

                        Sounds like one of your own has been convince that God exists! Although he is far from the acceptance of the God of the bible he is still on the right track.....Selah!

                        • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/18/2009 3:45:15 PM

                          "Sounds like one of your own has been convince that God exists! Although he is far from the acceptance of the God of the bible he is still on the right track.."

                          The right track? Not really. He now believes that there may be some form of theist process just like Jefferson and Thomas Paine did. that is a long way from what you believe. Not in a diety that sets rules and that deserves worship or obedience. He is far too intelligent to ever fall for that. In fact he still states that the Christain idea of god is false. By the way, there are reprts that he has since retracted his statements in being a deist and has gone back to his prior views.

                          It is possible that he has realized that the original idea of Intelligent Design in no way deals with god. It only deals with the idea of a desing process and the concept odf designer(s) with absolutely no reference as to what those designer(s) might be.

                          But even if he does belive i a Deist concept of god, that in no way supports your view of god and is of no rel coonsequence. He openly admits that his mental faculties are weakening. So while the were strong he was atheist. Now that they are weak he is not so sure. Sounds about right.

                      • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/18/2009 11:57:44 AM

                        To do a self evaluation on your own interest proves nothing. These independent studies that you quoted, who conducted them? There was controversy with DSM before these studies came out and when they admit to being wrong in their analysis and taking off certain behaviors because of political correctness dictated it to them is reason to question there validity.

        • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/11/2009 9:13:10 PM

          Why would anyone belive anything written by the Elliot Institute for Social Science Research, which describes itself as a collection of ???Pro-Life researchers who believe to prove abortion is dangerous.

          Tha fact is that there is really only one person actively involved in said joke. David C. Reardon who is the founder, director and sole full-time employee of The Elliot Institute for Social Science Research of Springfield, Illinois, which he described as a ???ministry.???

          The institute???s principal activity has been propagating the notion that ???abortion harms women??? and advocating for post-abortion ???healing,??? which Reardon calls ???a great evangelization opportunity for the Church.???

          Therefore anything that they write can be dismissed as pure garbage. It would be like trusting the KKK to research education in the African American community.

          As for Meta Uchtman, no legitimate independent peer review has confirmed what she claims. She is part of the Anti-Abortion movement. Another biased source. Easily ignored.

          You claim to be a "psychologist dealing with abortion traumas". The problem with that is that by the very definition you deal only with those who do have problems with abortions. There is no denying that some women do regret or experience trauma after having an abortion. Taht could be caused by any number of reasons including becoming involved with groups or religions that oppose abortions or other reasons. But just because there are some does not in any way mean that the majority feel that way.

          As for www.rachelsvineyard.org, another biased source that no reputable researcher would trust.

  • Posted By: Against-Ignorance @ 02/10/2009 4:33:39 PM

    bojack27 asks a good question. Who will pay for these women's suffering. Here's a thought. The Republican theocrats who've voted to take away abortion rights and forced women to use these drugs. Every Fundamentalist bible banger in this country could be forced to pay a special tax to pay for their evils. Of course they won't like it. Fundi's have never been found of taking personal responsibility for their actions.

    • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/18/2009 12:37:54 PM

      Your a typical Demo(n)crat always running away from responsibility for your very own actions and wanting others to pay for your mishaps. Here is a novel idea, accept responsibility for your own actions and quit demanding others pay for your immaturity...GROW UP!

  • Posted By: bjsassy @ 02/13/2009 9:41:03 AM

    It is very revealing when pro-abortionists claim that the fetus/unborn baby is not alive. That is not a medical or scientific fact. Even the Roe v Wade ruling did not declare that the fetus was not alive. When an abortion is performed, the unborn baby dies. Webster defines abortion as "the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of an embryo or fetus." It must be unbearable for pro-abortionists to even admit to themselves that abortion is destroying a small human life. Again, we can go back to the plantation owners justifying slavery.

    Abortion is a very controversial subject. The emotions are running very high here. People can argue one way or another regarding the unborn baby's rights as a person, but the fetus is alive and growing. If it wasn't, it would not be necessary to kill it.

    • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/13/2009 10:21:53 AM

      By the way, one can be personally opposed to abortion, but know enough about science and medicine to realize that viability is a very valid and major part of this issue and therefore still be pro-choice, so not all pro-choice people are pro-abortion.

      • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/17/2009 12:43:19 PM

        That statement doesn't make any since at all! So one can be personally oppose to abortion but worship at the alter of science in order to soothe their minds into believe what is happening isn't really happening to a human being! Get Real! Quit worshipping science and pay attention to your own conscience which tells you this is totally wrong!

        • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/17/2009 5:11:38 PM

          "Quit worshipping science and pay attention to your own conscience which tells you this is totally wrong!"

          I do not worship science. But I utilize it. My conscience has no problem with early term abortion.

          You may think that it is wrong. But there are plenty of caring, decent people who disagree with you.

          I have never said that this is a easy issue. It is not black and white. But I have never seen a valid reason to put religious belief over science and medicine.

          • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/17/2009 5:29:15 PM

            You posted this in the wrong area...

            • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/18/2009 10:26:28 AM

              No I did not. I specifically addressed YOUR prior post.

            • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/18/2009 10:21:36 AM

              No you didn't my bad!

    • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/13/2009 10:16:52 AM

      "It is very revealing when pro-abortionists claim that the fetus/unborn baby is not alive. That is not a medical or scientific fact."

      Actually it is not a viable life. And that IS a scientific and medical fact. The issue is viability. You may not like that but it is true.

      "When an abortion is performed, the unborn baby dies. Webster defines abortion as "the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of an embryo or fetus."

      Note that is says a fetus or embryo, NOT a baby.

      "It must be unbearable for pro-abortionists to even admit to themselves that abortion is destroying a small human life."

      Not at all. It is a non-viable fetus. It is not that same thing as a child.

      " Again, we can go back to the plantation owners justifying slavery. "

      You can but no intelligent person would.

      "People can argue one way or another regarding the unborn baby's rights as a person, but the fetus is alive and growing. If it wasn't, it would not be necessary to kill it."

      There a lot of things that are alive in some way shape or form. The issue is rights and development. A tumor is alive too. So are bacteria. That is not to say that aborting a fetus is the same a removing a tumor but it is not the same thing as killing a child or an adult.

  • Posted By: mogrady896 @ 02/13/2009 10:05:49 AM

    Yes, RU486 might help women bypass an abortion clinic and, therefore, demonstrators but, in return, it essentially makes the mother the abortionist. The mother stays at home waiting for her unborn child to expire and be passed from her uterus and then she can flush it down the toilet. Hopefully she will take a good look before touching the toilet handle because she will see what a surgical abortion would not show her - a very small, intact, undeniably human being that will get the same burial as a pet goldfish. Hopefully most mothers will be shocked enough by what they see, that they will realize how the pro-abortion side has misled, or outright lied to them, about the "products of conception" - a euphemism for an unborn human being.

    • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/13/2009 10:18:26 AM

      Or more likley they will realize that is it just an embryo or fetus and that the anti-abortion group has been lying to it that it is anything else.

      • Posted By: mogrady896 @ 02/13/2009 10:48:34 AM

        You mean a HUMAN embryo or fetus, don't you? Using medical terms may make you feel better about the taking of a human life, but a "rose is still a rose" By the way is okay to kill a "neonate"?

        • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/13/2009 2:45:22 PM

          "You mean a HUMAN embryo or fetus, don't you? Using medical terms may make you feel better about the taking of a human life, but a "rose is still a rose""


          And a fetus is still just a fetus. An embryo and early term fetus is never viable, even with medical intervention.


          "By the way is okay to kill a "neonate"?"

          Yours maybe. But seriously if you have read what I have said about the differnce between a non-viable fetus and born child you would not ask such foolish questions.

          • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/17/2009 12:38:55 PM

            Also that comment about killing his newborn was tasteless!

            • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/18/2009 10:25:24 AM

              Sarcastic, yes, not tasteless since I meediately made my real point. Since mogrady has read what I have written in the past (although maybe not able to actually understand it) his neonate question was not deserving of repsect or even a serious answer. It did deserve sarcasm.

          • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/17/2009 12:37:31 PM

            It is not a foolish question it is just a foolish explanation of when a child is not a child! So when a doctor tells a pregnant woman that she is with child he or she is telling them a lie? Get Real!

  • Posted By: Hexon @ 02/08/2009 12:31:57 AM

    The taking of a human life is never a private matter. The fact that the human referred to is inside the womb of another human does not negate the fact that the un-born human is his or her own person with all the rights and privileges that go along with being human. And it is a human life we are speaking about. It is a life--because it is alive. And it is a human life precisely because it is the product of two human beings. This is the dirty little secret. For all of our philosophical and semantic debates, abortion is the killing of innocent human life.

    • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/11/2009 9:27:20 AM

      The fact that the human referred to is inside the womb of another human does not negate the fact that the un-born human is his or her own person with all the rights and privileges that go along with being human."

      Not at all. It is not yet a true life. It has no rights.

      "And it is a human life we are speaking about."

      That deoneds on how one defines a "life". Medical science does not define is as the same as a living human being.

      " It is a life--because it is alive."

      Not really.


      "abortion is the killing of innocent human life."

      That is opinion not fact.
      "

      • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/11/2009 1:49:55 PM

        " It is a life--because it is alive."

        Not really.


        "abortion is the killing of innocent human life."

        That is opinion not fact.
        "
        Your dismissal of things doesn't provide concrete evidence of persuasion.... you say that it is not really alive then why do you have to terminate, abort, stop the growth of if it is not alive?

        So if it is not a innocent human being that is being terminated then what is it then? And whatever answer you give make sure that this is not the natrual process of life that everyone has gone through without the termination by outside entities! You sir cannot provide any evidence that this is not a human life but there is overwhelming evidence that it is human life.....and it is a fact whether you want to believe it or not "Ripley!"

        • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/11/2009 3:29:53 PM

          "Your dismissal of things doesn't provide concrete evidence of persuasion."

          And your assertion that it is alive does not prove concrete evidence either. There are mamy doctors and biologists who assert that an under 21 week fetus is not a viable life.

          "... you say that it is not really alive then why do you have to terminate, abort, stop the growth of if it is not alive? "
          Viablility is the main issue.


          "So if it is not a innocent human being that is being terminated then what is it then?"

          A potential human being. With os standing or rights.

          "And whatever answer you give make sure that this is not the natrual process of life that everyone has gone through without the termination by outside entities! "

          Not sure what you mean by that. The answer is that until, under normal devlopmental processes, it can survive outside the womb without extraordinary medical intervetnion, it is not a viable life and has no rights.

          "You sir cannot provide any evidence that this is not a human life but there is overwhelming evidence that it is human life.....and it is a fact whether you want to believe it or not "Ripley!" "

          There is not overwhelming evidence that it is a viable human life. Viability is the key and scieince and medicine are on my side on that.

          • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/12/2009 6:10:21 PM

            And your assertion that it is alive does not prove concrete evidence either. There are mamy doctors and biologists who assert that an under 21 week fetus is not a viable life.

            So your argument is to say that since doctors and biologist determine that a child cannot survive outside of the womb less than 21 weeks it is disposable?

            "... you say that it is not really alive then why do you have to terminate, abort, stop the growth of if it is not alive? "

            Viablility is the main issue.

            So you kill it because it hasn???t reach the point where it can survive outside of the womb! There is nothing wrong with the fetus and it would survive the natural process of life if you wouldn???t terminate it or wait 3 more weeks! Unbelievable that you are saying this or leading me to believe you are justifying killing of the unborn based on the viability!

            "So if it is not a innocent human being that is being terminated then what is it then?"

            A potential human being. With os standing or rights.

            So when you take away this potential for it to be human you are doing the humane thing? It is funny that if you kill or mess with the egg of a Bald Eagle you will get fined and thrown into jail for just attempting to cause the death of a unborn bird of prey. Now we have human beings who give no standing or rights to those after his own kind but elevate birds and four-footed beast above that of a human being.

            • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/12/2009 6:12:46 PM

              "And whatever answer you give make sure that this is not the natrual process of life that everyone has gone through without the termination by outside entities! "

              Not sure what you mean by that. The answer is that until, under normal devlopmental processes, it can survive outside the womb without extraordinary medical intervetnion, it is not a viable life and has no rights.

              So from your assertion of something being able to survive outside of the womb without medical intervention it is not alive! You sound like Obama when he voted against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act (BAIPA). Once something is outside of the womb and it takes one breath it is considered alive according to your standards and yet when babies who are born but need medical attention are not alive? You sir don???t make any sense and the doctors and biologist are just speculating on what would happen and really don???t know if all babies under 21 weeks have develop the same. Just let them all die though abortion and we will not feel bad because they would have never made it anyway. Sounds like what I posted before about self-denial and justification of murdering innocent children. Just dehumanize it and you can wipe anything out of existence???..is this your philosophy?

              "You sir cannot provide any evidence that this is not a human life but there is overwhelming evidence that it is human life.....and it is a fact whether you want to believe it or not "Ripley!" "

              There is not overwhelming evidence that it is a viable human life. Viability is the key and scieince and medicine are on my side on that.

              There is overwhelming evidence that if this fetus is allowed to go through the natural process of life it???s viability wouldn???t even come into question! I think there is around 6 billion or humans who are testimony to this and they validate my side.

              • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/13/2009 8:37:00 AM

                "So from your assertion of something being able to survive outside of the womb without medical intervention it is not alive!"

                What I was saying was that UNTIL it is delivered it is not alive. Once delivered it is alive.

                "Once something is outside of the womb and it takes one breath it is considered alive according to your standards and yet when babies who are born but need medical attention are not alive?"

                As I just said that is not what I was saying.

                "Just let them all die though abortion and we will not feel bad because they would have never made it anyway."

                That may be your view but it is not mine. Once delivered they are alive, although their chance of survival is not very good.


                ".is this your philosophy?"

                No at all.

                • Posted By: bojack27 @ 02/13/2009 1:02:53 PM

                  So from your assertion of something being able to survive outside of the womb without medical intervention it is not alive!"

                  What I was saying was that UNTIL it is delivered it is not alive. Once delivered it is alive.

                  Its amazing that we use the word alive to describe a volcano, cells, electricity but we will not use it to describe the unborn who has cells, a baby is thinking at 20 weeks (electric) and is active (volcano) yet we still say that they are not alive!

                  The unborn baby at 20 weeks
                  Fetal development is already quite advanced at 20 weeks gestation:
                  ??? The skeleton is complete and reflexes are present at 42 days.
                  ??? Electrical brain wave patterns can be recorded at 43 days. This is usually ample evidence that ???thinking??? is taking place in the brain.
                  ??? The fetus has the appearance of a miniature baby, with complete fingers, toes and ears at 49 days.
                  ??? All organs are functioning???stomach, liver, kidney, brain???and all systems are intact at 56 days.
                  ??? By 20 weeks, the unborn child has hair and working vocal cords, sucks her thumb, grasps with her hands and kicks. She measures 12 inches.

                  "Once something is outside of the womb and it takes one breath it is considered alive according to your standards and yet when babies who are born but need medical attention are not alive?"

                  As I just said that is not what I was saying.

                  It may not be what you said but it is what you insinuated by saying that because it cannot live outside the womb without medical attention this doesn???t give it any standing or rights! These are your words not mine!

                  "Just let them all die though abortion and we will not feel bad because they would have never made it anyway."

                  That may be your view but it is not mine. Once delivered they are alive, although their chance of survival is not very good.

                  There chance of survival would be very good if others wouldn???t extract them from their environment and let the natural process of life continue.


                  ".is this your philosophy?"

                  No at all.

                  That is good to hear because many genocides have taken place dehumanizing a race of people who were deemed undesirable by others.

                  • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/14/2009 2:11:16 PM

                    "It may not be what you said but it is what you insinuated by saying that because it cannot live outside the womb without medical attention this doesn???t give it any standing or rights! These are your words not mine!"

                    Not at all. I have always said that once outside the womb, whther is required medical intervention or not it has standing and right even though it may not survive. But while inside the womb, under the natural process it does not.

                    "There chance of survival would be very good if others wouldn???t extract them from their environment and let the natural process of life continue."

                    Think that one through. IF they are outside the womb then they were a premmie birth occurring whther through the vaginal canal or through C-Section for whatever reason. If they are DELIVERED then there was a medical reason why the natural process was not allowed to continue.

        • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 02/11/2009 3:31:11 PM

          Additionally, since RU-486 CANNOT is not to be used on a viable fetus the issue of it being alive is moot.

  • Posted By: mis58 @ 02/14/2009 11:28:43 AM

    blue_rylie has listed the best points in an argument that I can't believe we're still having in 2009. Furthermore, and perhaps more importantly, when the people who oppose a woman's right to abortion recognize the fact that it takes two people to conceive a child-- when single mothers are no longer stigmatized (and make no mistake, they are); when deadbeat fathers are truly held accountable for the costs of raising their children; when anti-choice politicians recognize the continued incidence of date rape and the vulnerability of women, especially young women, to media that objectify them; when our legal system no longer forces any woman to choose between being jailed for an abortion or being jailed for neglect; and when mostly male clergy who have no idea about the costs of raising a child use guilt to convince women to have babies they do not want or cannot support because the babies' "fathers" are long gone -- then we might have a foundation for discussing the topic in a sensible way. Until then, those who oppose a woman's right to choose are simply exhibiting their cynicism and hypocrisy.

  • Posted By: blue_rylie @ 02/14/2009 9:01:34 AM

    A few basic points, your cat's legal protections are not in question here, a woman's legal protections are. But since we're there, your cat can have an abortion so go kitty!
    To those posting the adoption-option, adoption is a great option but it does nothing for a woman who doesn't want to risk her health and possibly her life for a pregnancy. Adoption is a choice, and it is not always the right or best choice for the woman involved. Your use of adoption as a cure-all solution shows just how little you know about adoption, please educate yourself.
    If your religion or beliefs forbids abortion, then the answer is quite simple. Do not have an abortion. Religion and beliefs forbid many things that are not illegal, simply believing it is wrong or bad is not enough to take the choice away from everyone else.
    Equating abortion to slavery has it's place, although the use of it here has been incorrect. Forcing a woman, against her will, to carry a pregnancy to term is a form of slavery. In no other situation is there even a question of forcing another human being to sacrifice their autonomy, their body, their health to sustain another's well being. No one is forced to give up a kidney, and no one should be, and yet a woman is called into question because she's not willing to give up her uterus.
    As for the argument that the fetus (yes, the medical term) suffers pain, etc. It is common knowledge that it is not until after 20 weeks (scientists can argue whether it's 20 or 24, either way it's not before 20 weeks) and the VAST majority of abortions are done well before that time. Abortions after that time are already regulated, it's a moot point and consists of nothing but emotional babble designed to add guilt to the issue.
    As for the choice of the fetus, are you even remotely serious? First, a fetus is incapable of choice, so a wasted point anyway. Secondly, if you're going to spout the adoption-option, are you going to ensure the baby has a say in that choice? I don't know any parents that ask "would you like to get your immunizations?" Of course they don't ask, the ADULT in the situation makes the decisions. Nevermind that a fetus simply can't make a choice, it also negates the requirement that the adults make the important decisions. But in case I'm wrong, I'll be sure to ask my kids what they think about our next home loan application and whether or not Daddy should worry about his cholesterol.

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