HEALTH FOR LIFE

Lessons In Survival

The science that explains why elite military forces bounce back faster than the rest of us.

By Ben Sherwood | NEWSWEEK
Published Feb 14, 2009 | Updated: 2:38  p.m. ET Feb 14, 2009
From the magazine issue dated Feb 23, 2009

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  • Posted By: Struense @ 02/21/2009 7:54:23 AM

    For those interested, the Associated Press continues to cover the court martial of Green Beret, MSGT Joseph D. Newell, at Ft. Bragg, NC. MSGT Newell is accused of the premeditated murder of a detained Afghan and of desecration of a body for severing the man???s ear, which Army investigators said they found in Newell???s room after the March 5 shooting at his remote military base in Afghanistan. mutilating his body. The ear is part of the prosecution evidence presented at trial. http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/02/ap_beret_murder_trial_022009/

    • Posted By: Struense @ 11/25/2009 8:34:46 AM

      The newest SEALS about to face trial - charged in alleged assault of detainee

      By Gidget Fuentes - Navy Times Staff writer
      Posted : Tuesday Nov 24, 2009
      http://www.navytimes.com/news/2009/11/UPnavy_seals_charged_112409w/

    • Posted By: Struense @ 11/25/2009 8:28:55 AM

      SEALs charged in alleged assault of detainee

      By Gidget Fuentes - Navy Times Staff writer
      Posted : Tuesday Nov 24, 2009 17:41:46 EST

      http://www.navytimes.com/news/2009/11/UPnavy_seals_charged_112409w/

  • Posted By: maskedfinancier @ 04/25/2009 9:49:42 PM

    Excellent post, which gives the lie to lots of "emotional mastery" BS which says that everyone can learn to handle stress. They can't - some people are much better and some are much worse.
    I work alot in the field of investing and once again this type of information is invaluable. People need to learn what their capacity for dealing with putting money at risk before doing it. Otherwise they are likely to get in over their head and get burnt - just like sending in a normal, volatile heartbeat GI in for a special forces mission.
    I've written about the investing link in more detail at my Texas Holdem Investing blog.

  • Posted By: jnhcube @ 04/20/2009 11:15:16 AM

    Wow this is a great article, I am an ex-army guy myself and the training that these guys are going through I can not even begin to fathom. The hardest thing I ever did when I was in the military was the 25mile Manchu road march in Korea through the Korean Mountains. 40 pond rucksack on your back for about 10 hours overnight in the dark, but its nothing compared to what these guys went through.

  • Posted By: heartmath @ 03/04/2009 9:01:22 PM

    The Newsweek article did not appropriately qualify the statement that low heart rate variability (HRV) is associated with better performance. It???s an interesting finding, but is quite context-specific. The HRV was obtained during an 8-minute period, with the subjects lying down, after they had just completed the classroom section of survival training and just before they were about to go into a very realistic ???prisoner of war??? or night time underwater navigation test that would result in either passing or failing the course. The participants were very aware of the unusually stressful event that they were about to engage in. It is becoming well-known that a persons ???overall??? amount or level HRV is related to future health outcomes, ability to self-regulate and so on; however, what is not typically appreciated about HRV is how context or state-specific it is. Our research shows that independent of the amount of overall HRV someone has, their current emotional state is reflected in the pattern of the HRV and/or state specific-related changes in the short-term amount of HRV. There are a number of states that lower HRV in the short-term context, but not the overall HRV. Active stress coping is one state that is well-known to do so, such as landing an airplane. Increased mental work load, mediation, relaxation (independent of deep breathing) all significantly lower HRV as well. Another important psychological activity that significantly lowers HRV (and can be to where it literally looks like a flat line) and the one that I suspect is in operation in the study, is inhibiting a response ??? the type of self-inhibition we do when someone is trying to tickle us, or when we are about to jump into a cold water. It is likely that the individuals who performed better were better able to inhibit their fear and anxiety prior to the upcoming event which was reflected in lower HRV. In addition, recording the HRV while lying down shifts the physiology into a low-HRV state (reduced sympathetic activity in preparation for sleep or relaxation) From this perspective, the findings are not that surprising. This point was discussed in the manuscript of the study where they mention the limitation of not knowing what the overall HRV of these individuals was and that their findings could be due to the specific manner in which the HRV was assessed, but I did not get the feeling they were aware of the magnitude of the effects that the current state can and does have on HRV.

    There are several studies that have now indicated that higher levels of NPY (as well as several other hormonal factors) are associated with higher resilience. So far, these have been short-term studies. We are currently conducting a study with the military in which we are assessing a wide range of hormones (including NPY), HRV, and cognitive functioning in a pre/post deployment study (long-term context).

    Rollin McCraty. Ph.D.
    Director of Research
    Institute of HeartMath
    military@heartmath.org

  • Posted By: RetiredGrunt @ 02/19/2009 12:25:13 AM

    Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion. However, it's far better to form one's opinion on the basis of experience and knowlege rather than from ignorance. I entered the military in 1971, when the Drill Sergeants could still "stress you out", and spent the next 20 years in either combat arms units, as an instructor ("stressing out" my students so they would SURVIVE the stresses of actual combat, or as a member of a very small "elite" special operations unit that most people had no idea even existed (not that we were really a "secret"; our missions were just "highly specialized" and extremely dangerous, though not necessarily directly combat related). When I returned from a tour in Viet Nam in 1972, I ran into one of my former Drill Sergeants. I vividly recall him saying to me, "Now you understand why we were so hard on you." I certainly did, and I'm grateful that they were! After the First Gulf War, one of my former subordinates (from that "elite" unit I mentioned) who had been operating far behind Iraqi lines with the Army Special Forces, made a point to look me up as he was passing through my duty station. I also vividly remember what he said. "Now I understand why you were so hard on us (meaning all my subordinates in the "elite unit"). Thank you." We do our service personnel no favor by NOT putting them under stress during their initial training phases. It is far better to send someone home from Basic Training with a General Discharge for "inability to adapt" (some individuals can't, and there should be no shame in it!) rather than have them, and possibly others in their unit, return home in CMHs - that's "coffins, metal handles" for those no familiar with military abbreviations. Combat is not, and never has been, "politically correct". That may be the way it works in diplomatic situations but it's not the hard and cruel reality once diplomacy has failed and the bullets and bombs start flying. In my day we had a saying: "If you sweat hard in training, you probably won't bleed in combat." By the way, just FYI for those "armchair experts" out there who may question such things, I have had female students and subordinates, and I was just as tough on them as I was with any of my male students and subordinates, and for the same reasons. If they ended up in combat, as some of them did, I wanted them to SURVIVE and come home ALIVE! Well guess what/ They could handle it; sometimes far better than could the men! Our adversaries won't be any less inclined to kill our servicewomen because of their gender. In point of fact, some of our current adversaries may be even more inclined to try to do so, given their "fundamentalist/fanatical" religious beliefs. Oh yeah! No stress there, right?

    • Posted By: cwolff99 @ 02/21/2009 6:52:13 PM

      Today's BCT is the hardest, toughest BCT in the history of the Army. Recruits march 8-11 miles/day from day 1. They train in IBA, helmets, and gear and are with their weapons 24-7. Add to that upgraded PT, improved combat oriented rifle qualification, and 3 long combat marches with a final Warrior Week in the field and a convoy live fire exercise.

      BCT training is updated with input from the combat units every 6 months.

      Anyone is free to visit any BCT site and see for themselves.

      • Posted By: tankboy @ 02/27/2009 7:35:02 PM

        Wah-wah. Oh no!!! BCT is tough! Somebody call somebody! heaven forbid that training is tough, because god only knows what rigors they might have to actually face when a bad guy is trying to kill them.

  • Posted By: cwolff99 @ 02/21/2009 6:43:48 PM

    This is great research but it doesn't tell us which is cause and effect. So, future research is aimed towards that.

    SF are highly selected and trained. They are probably the most creative group in the military and are very open to innovation. They are in many ways the model of the future force because they spend far more time helping the local population (Nation Building) than shooting bad guys. Some folks watch far too many movies.

    The ideal would be to expand this work to Combat Exhaustion/PTSD and see how sleep deprivation and malnutrition affect the internal biochemistry and what can be done to treat it. A sleep deprived, dehydrated, calcium/electrolyte/iron deficient Soldier may not need psychotherapy as much as getting their internal biochemistry rebalanced.

    The thread has wandered off into ad hominem stories that are skewed by the viewer's biases. Sadly, few folks research their facts and rely on the media. Do you think that 10,000 SF soldiers building roads, bridges, water systems, and sewage systems while delivering medical care gets the headline or one screw-up? If a Soldier displays angst after his decisions cost his comrades lives, under what definition do you call that sociopathy?

    The reality is that all adults make Risk Management trade-offs in their lives on a daily basis. In the last 6 years, 98,000 18-24 year-old men died in America (source: CDC), mostly by driving cars. If you look only at the military, it is a modern miracle that our casualty rates are so low and that our young men and women do so well with so few mistakes.

    • Posted By: RickHay @ 02/22/2009 11:35:08 PM

      cwolff99,

      I second your opinion.

      RickHay

  • Posted By: RickHay @ 02/22/2009 11:23:38 PM

    My, my, an article like this attracts some strange responses.

    Thank goodness we do have the sort of people who react calmly under the severe stress of life threatening circumstance, whether they are everyone's idea of ideal partners or neighbors.

    Should this Viet era SF trooper with a metronomic heartbeat, actual hot combat experience, and a happy, quite nonviolent marriage still going strong after most of three decades, who makes his living as a visual artist (painter) should be considered some sort of walking time bomb or a deviant? I am not really that unique.

    Regarding misbehavior and incompetence of Blackwater operatives, who ever said they were the elite, rather than some guys who had to leave the military for some reason or other, or never were a part of it? Those of us on the inside of SF units and operations have seen that sort time and time again. They do not equate.

    Some of you folk just need to calm down a little.

  • Posted By: IlonaE @ 02/21/2009 11:07:18 AM

    I've been married for 32 years to a man who served in Special Forces for 5 years active 7 reserves and he did a tour in Cietnam. He still stays very active with Army SF and I thank GOD everyday that there are men out there who are willing to make the sacrafices to be a part of these elite teams. I believe it's an honot to wear that Green Beret and they EARN THAT HONOR.

    To the person who tried ti insinuate that men who have served in these elite groups turn out to be sexual devients - GET A LIFE and provide some statistical data. When you have RELIABLE statistics - compare them to ALL MEN and I'll be you dinner in NY at your restaurant of choice - there is no significant difference.

    I know most of the men who have served in Special Forces, regardless of their age, would ship out on a moments notice if they were needed. AND most of them I know stay in very good physical condition. I'd put my 63 yo husband up against most of lard assed kids in highschool these days and bet on my husband.

    Even in peace time settings these men are never reluctant to STEP UP when it's required. My husband came on an accident while on a Reserve Drill. An elderlay man had gone into diabetic shock - hit a care with a young man head on. My husband and the others didn't hesitate to get these people out of cars that blew up right after that. And my husband wrapped the severed arm of the elderly man properly (it was later re-attached). These SF men never hesitated for a moment to put themselves at risk to save strangers. They are ELITE men and not the Hollywood types shown in movies. In fact, most men who have served in SF don't speak about it and most people would never know they did.

    De Oppresso Liber -that's their motto - To Liberate the Oppressed.

    • Posted By: IlonaE @ 02/21/2009 11:40:01 AM

      I apologize for my spelling errors - I was so PO'd by the implication that SF members are aggressive sexual animals that I was typing a bit too fast to hit the right keys.

      • Posted By: Struense @ 02/21/2009 1:35:16 PM

        The term or label "deviant" is a term used in both psychology and sociology, it does not imply with any exclusivity anything about sexuality (rather it implies anti-social behavior (that is deviating from social norms and mores). A deviant can simply be as simple as a public drunkenness, that is depending on the community standard affixed. So "the lady doth protest too much me thinks." Shakespeare (alas, a deviant in is age). Must have been a Freudian slip.

  • Posted By: fixtedwingonwheels @ 02/20/2009 10:57:29 PM

    Thank you Swanieseagal for setting things right

  • Posted By: fixtedwingonwheels @ 02/20/2009 10:48:03 PM

    Your training missed the point of this story,it's not about you. If you feel the need ,write a book.

  • Posted By: Swanieseagal @ 02/19/2009 3:20:56 AM

    Struense, do I detect a so called "educated" idiot? Unnecessary risk taking depends on your point of view. The situational ethics and lawlessness you mentioned are, in my experience, rarer but far more heavily publicized than incidents among regular units. Elites screwing up make for sexier headlines. As for being more prone to familial discord and social violence, again my experience says otherwise. I have been a SEAL for 22 years, and married for 18 years. We have 4 great daughters, and I don't abuse them in any way. My peers don't come home stressed out from the war and take it out on their families, either. For the record, we don't look forward to getting shot at. We simply trust in our training and each other. We're not bulletproof, but we train very hard and we plan exhaustively. We don't fear going outside the wire because we're as ready as anyone can be, and the odds are on our side. Why worry about the things you can't control? Our biggest fear is failing our teammates. The "stress inoculation" of the military and elite forces in particular is crucial to building resiliency and identifying those who are incapable of handling stress before they become a lethal liability to their teammates. You are absolutely wrong about Blackwater hiring exclusively from elite units. They grew far too fast to to be that choosy. Although I have known some former elites who worked for them, most of the contractors we met overseas were former plain vanilla forces. Our impression of them was of a bunch of jackasses strutting around with huge chips on their shoulders, finally living out their fantasies of being "operators". No doubt many of them were your discipline problems when they were in service. Moving on to SERE, the basic SERE curriculum is outdated, but still valuable. Do you believe that even though captive American servicemen are not being held in a "Hanoi Hilton" that they are not interrogated and exploited in sometimes brutal and always creative ways? You laud the "highly successful" survival strategies of civilians without training. Unfortunately, the survival strategy most often utilized is complete surrender and capitulation. A civilian is under no obligation to behave with dignity, safeguard secrets that can get other servicemen killed, or worry about the welfare of his fellow captives. A military member must answer for his behavior as no civilian is expected to do. To that end he must be trained in what is expected of him, what he may expect to face, and given tools to cope. Even you, I think, would agree that education and training makes virtually any challenge easier. I'll close by suggesting that you stick to posting about things you actually have some experience with.

    • Posted By: Struense @ 02/19/2009 9:43:52 PM

      It may surprise you to note that I'm SERE level-C trained and with many years PR experience -- thus a PR "insider" privy to not only PR success stories, but also disastrous failures. As such, I am not easily prone to PR IO propaganda. Nor am I a sophomore (the word that escaped you?). I have a uniformed background as well. I could run through a litany of incidents where the arrogance and hubris of so-called "elites" put themselves in either isolating circumstances. But the crucial question is did their stress inoculation as SERE graduates cause them to fare any better than, say, a novice CIA agent held for more than 30 years in a Chinese prison? You have eaten of the poisonous root if you believe that "surrender and capitulation" is the only alternative to textbook SERE school resistance strategies. I even admit that SERE training tips the balance, but by how much -- that is the abiding question? To be athletic and clever is quite different than being both robust and resilient in mind -- and that is what a serious and deep study of persons subjected to captivity demonstrates (the neurophysiology of hormone levels is only a scientific and speculative parlor game that mainly impresses the uninformed (revealed use on detainees notwithstanding). As a SEAL, how do you account for Marcus Luttrell's public comments where he questions whether he should have simply killed the innocent Pashtu shepherd boy who accidentally discovered his team? And only this week two Coronado SEALs were arrested for murder in Mexico (after disobeying a standing order). Also this week we hear that two teenage girls, one dead, are discovered in an Army Ranger barracks. And who was it that killed Pat Tilman -- his Ranger comrades, who with the help of leadership engaged in a discreditable cover-up. I do not say that all SF members are prone to deviance and violence, only that statistics show a greater propensity toward such. I am truly happy for your long marriage and outstanding daughters -- that is a bullet always neglected from military performance reports. However resorting to the hackneyed Code of Conduct is grasping at straws; surely you can think of a better, non-secular, reason to survive and than just the indoctrination of "return with honor." Plus no recent military member has ever had to answer for misconduct before the enemy (who is that in GWOT?), though there were calls for military justice among the Viet Nam POWs. In my final analysis, the sorry state of antiquated SERE training benefits no one more than the PR Military Industrial Complex -- those hundreds of former SERE instructors who, like Eveready Bunnies, teach what they unquestioning learned many years ago. And only recently did they discover urban hostage survival. Yet these are the so-called SMEs training our elites in stress inoculation.

    • Posted By: Struense @ 02/19/2009 9:41:35 PM

      It may surprise you to note that I'm SERE level-C trained and with many years PR experience -- thus a PR "insider" privy to not only PR success stories, but also disastrous failures. As such, I am not easily prone to PR IO propaganda. Nor am I a sophomore (the word that escaped you?). I have a uniformed background as well. I could run through a litany of incidents where the arrogance and hubris of so-called "elites" put themselves in either isolating circumstances. But the crucial question is did their stress inoculation as SERE graduates cause them to fare any better than, say, a novice CIA agent held for more than 30 years in a Chinese prison? You have eaten of the poisonous root if you believe that "surrender and capitulation" is the only alternative to textbook SERE school resistance strategies. I even admit that SERE training tips the balance, but by how much -- that is the abiding question? To be athletic and clever is quite different than being both robust and resilient in mind -- and that is what a serious and deep study of persons subjected to captivity demonstrates (the neurophysiology of hormone levels is only a scientific and speculative parlor game that mainly impresses the uninformed (revealed use on detainees notwithstanding). As a SEAL, how do you account for Marcus Luttrell's public comments where he questions whether he should have simply killed the innocent Pashtu shepherd boy who accidentally discovered his team? And only this week two Coronado SEALs were arrested for murder in Mexico (after disobeying a standing order). Also this week we hear that two teenage girls, one dead, are discovered in an Army Ranger barracks. And who was it that killed Pat Tilman -- his Ranger comrades, who with the help of leadership engaged in a discreditable cover-up. I do not say that all SF members are prone to deviance and violence, only that statistics show a greater propensity toward such. I am truly happy for your long marriage and outstanding daughters -- that is a bullet always neglected from military performance reports. However resorting to the hackneyed Code of Conduct is grasping at straws; surely you can think of a better, non-secular, reason to survive and than just the indoctrination of "return with honor." Plus no recent military member has ever had to answer for misconduct before the enemy (who is that in GWOT?), though there were calls for military justice among the Viet Nam POWs. In my final analysis, the sorry state of antiquated SERE training benefits no one more than the PR Military Industrial Complex -- those hundreds of former SERE instructors who, like Eveready Bunnies, teach what they unquestioning learned many years ago. And only recently did they discover urban hostage survival. Yet these are the so-called SMEs training our elites in stress inoculation.

    • Posted By: Struense @ 02/19/2009 9:40:44 PM

      It may surprise you to note that I'm SERE level-C trained and with many years PR experience -- thus a PR "insider" privy to not only PR success stories, but also disastrous failures. As such, I am not easily prone to PR IO propaganda. Nor am I a sophomore (the word that escaped you?). I have a uniformed background as well. I could run through a litany of incidents where the arrogance and hubris of so-called "elites" put themselves in either isolating circumstances. But the crucial question is did their stress inoculation as SERE graduates cause them to fare any better than, say, a novice CIA agent held for more than 30 years in a Chinese prison? You have eaten of the poisonous root if you believe that "surrender and capitulation" is the only alternative to textbook SERE school resistance strategies. I even admit that SERE training tips the balance, but by how much -- that is the abiding question? To be athletic and clever is quite different than being both robust and resilient in mind -- and that is what a serious and deep study of persons subjected to captivity demonstrates (the neurophysiology of hormone levels is only a scientific and speculative parlor game that mainly impresses the uninformed (revealed use on detainees notwithstanding). As a SEAL, how do you account for Marcus Luttrell's public comments where he questions whether he should have simply killed the innocent Pashtu shepherd boy who accidentally discovered his team? And only this week two Coronado SEALs were arrested for murder in Mexico (after disobeying a standing order). Also this week we hear that two teenage girls, one dead, are discovered in an Army Ranger barracks. And who was it that killed Pat Tilman -- his Ranger comrades, who with the help of leadership engaged in a discreditable cover-up. I do not say that all SF members are prone to deviance and violence, only that statistics show a greater propensity toward such. I am truly happy for your long marriage and outstanding daughters -- that is a bullet always neglected from military performance reports. However resorting to the hackneyed Code of Conduct is grasping at straws; surely you can think of a better, non-secular, reason to survive and than just the indoctrination of "return with honor." Plus no recent military member has ever had to answer for misconduct before the enemy (who is that in GWOT?), though there were calls for military justice among the Viet Nam POWs. In my final analysis, the sorry state of antiquated SERE training benefits no one more than the PR Military Industrial Complex -- those hundreds of former SERE instructors who, like Eveready Bunnies, teach what they unquestioning learned many years ago. And only recently did they discover urban hostage survival. Yet these are the so-called SMEs training our elites in stress inoculation.

    • Posted By: Shadowgroup @ 02/19/2009 10:54:35 AM

      Bravo! Well put brother! I'm a AF vet...husband is now in his 30th month in Iraq...has been blown up 3 times out of vehicles, off of roofs etc,, hit by RPG, wounded various times, has rescued many while under fire-carried his shot buddy on his back to the e.p. while wounded himself, top interrogator, senior intel advisor both tactically and strategically, plus other things I will not print for security purposes; the guy is a hero straight up. He passionately will deny it. And do you know what he wants? It's not to attack anyone, beat me up or torture small animals(he loves and rescues them) or sexually assault anything in sight with a pulse. Kids love him! He wants to play golf and drive to Maine when the leaves are turning (he misses colors other than sand) for a good lobster dinner. How's that for a man of "the list"? I served 7 years overseas and personally met our foreign counterparts at a seclued cookout for secuirty reasons. When I approached the firepit deep in the woods, music from Mozart was playing, men were in folding chairs smoking cigars drinking wine out out crystal glasses, laughing and passing around photos of their families. Highly intellligent and humerous! No kidding. Yet I beg any of the morons who have written their idiotic babble to walk up to them and call them the criminally insane who beat their wife and kids. I carry my camera at all times for moments like that.

    • Posted By: Shadowgroup @ 02/19/2009 10:51:29 AM

      Bravo! Well put brother! I'm a AF vet...husband is now in his 30th month in Iraq...has been blown up 3 times out of vehicles, off of roofs etc,, hit by RPG, wounded various times, has rescued many while under fire-carried his shot buddy on his back to the e.p. while wounded himself, top interrogator, senior intel advisor both tactically and strategically, plus other things I will not print for security purposes; the guy is a hero straight up. He passionately will deny it. And do you know what he wants? It's not to attack anyone, beat me up or torture small animals(he loves and rescues them) or sexually assault anything in sight with a pulse. Kids love him! He wants to play golf and drive to Maine when the leaves are turning (he misses colors other than sand) for a good lobster dinner. How's that for a man of "the list"? I served 7 years overseas and personally met our foreign counterparts at a seclued cookout for secuirty reasons. When I approached the firepit deep in the woods, music from Mozart was playing, men were in folding chairs smoking cigars drinking wine out out crystal glasses, laughing and passing around photos of their families. Highly intellligent and humerous! No kidding. Yet I beg any of the morons who have written their idiotic babble to walk up to them and call them the criminally insane who beat their wife and kids. I carry my camera at all times for moments like that.

  • Posted By: smileeveryday @ 02/19/2009 3:34:02 PM

    Dear Cloudosmoke, I was an SF soldier and served in the first Gulf War, Somalia and more... The stress you mentioned and the stress we have is very different and I am not saying yours is not hard, but if you want I will trade places with you anytime. Walk in my shoes then talk. Better yet why don't you go out and defend our country and I will stay home. I missed most of my kids birthdays and did not see them grow up. I can never get another chance to experience it again, but I was proud to serve my country so you and other can enjoy freedom and did not have to put your life at risk. Please respect our men and women in uniform.

  • Posted By: Cloudosmoke @ 02/18/2009 3:45:56 PM

    Hey I deal with stress daily. I have a wife that's a former marine, 3 daughters, and deal with crazy people for a living and still find time to laugh at it all. Please, everyday people deal too.

    • Posted By: dcamp2lt @ 02/18/2009 4:17:47 PM

      Do you truly believe that the "stress" of a family is anything close to the stress that Army Rangers or Special Forces endure? You must remember that many of these men have wives and children as well. To compare the stress in your life does a disservice to these brave men!!

      • Posted By: Cloudosmoke @ 02/19/2009 11:21:53 AM

        The gist of the story is how elite forces bounce back faster, I was referring to that, I wasn't downplaying service people. Whatever for you friend.

      • Posted By: tboone @ 02/18/2009 4:33:46 PM

        Not every comparison is slight against our military. I am so sick of this idolitry. Yes, the soldiers are good for our country but most of them are just doing their job. No one applauds me for showing up to work everyday.

        • Posted By: rngr0894 @ 02/18/2009 9:51:35 PM

          tboone, don't be a hater. you, just like everyone in the USA, had a chance to join the military and since you are a man you had a chance to take it a little futher and join SF. You didn't, I don't know why, maybe you didn't want to live your mom's house. Anyway, I am an SF soldier, I have a wife and three kids and have spent most of the last 8 years in one stan or another, i have never been to one of my daughter's birthday parties. Your right it is my job, but don't compare your stress with mine until such time as you have to worry about IED's or ambushes on you way to work you crybaby.

  • Posted By: cmcbutler76 @ 02/19/2009 8:40:21 AM

    Some of these comments are rather interesting given that we can always find "problem types" in any given population subset. It looks like good and informative research. While I was in the Navy and not a part of special forces of any type I also made it a point to make sure my Sailors understood that stress was a normal part of life. Some didn't like being yelled at but my counter is that if you can't take the stress of yelling then how are you going to be able to take the stress of a missile hit or a major fire in an engineering space or a crash on the flight deck with burned and bloodied bodies to take care of?
    So who does the hard things? Those who can. It serves no purpose to send poorly trained people into such situations unless it is your intent to solve the problem by drowning it with the blood of bodies.
    God bless those who serve and those who also wait for them to return.

  • Posted By: Dorby2 @ 02/18/2009 11:19:43 PM

    After all is said and done the reversal is as such. Such a persom can kill with no remorse and probably eat or drink without shedding a tear. What actually happens is that the person has inately learn to split hies or her personality. But! relaxation of the soul is uncontrolable once the personalites decide to find their true space. For example we walk in our sleep. or presumably we are sleeping. But are we? ONLY THE TRUE SELF KNOWS THE DIFFERENCE. MEAN WHILE THE OBSERVER IS NO WHERE TO BE FOUND. hE IS BUSY PREPARING TO SEE THE NEXT PATIENT.

    • Posted By: IndyCon @ 02/19/2009 8:34:34 AM

      Huh? Dr. Freud, please expound for us.

  • Posted By: vin.cent @ 02/19/2009 8:25:57 AM

    Many thanks to Swanie and all those who posted their experience in the army and with family.
    I am a civilian, one of my children has joined the army, he passed through a lot of entrance examinations
    and physical tests, I am most proud of him,
    Even though I live with permanent anxiety, whenever I see him he gives a sense of fulfillment and calm,
    I accept and rejoyce with the choice he made.

  • Posted By: jakzhumans @ 02/18/2009 4:46:26 PM

    rousch15 - You have literally no idea what you're talking about. Special Forces troops are the most disciplined, least "insane" troops on Earth. They are generally selected BECAUSE they have consciences, and have demonstrated the capacity to properly apply their judgement in fluid combat situations, as opposed to most troops who do well if they just follow rote orders or procedures.

    • Posted By: IndyCon @ 02/19/2009 8:05:17 AM

      No matter what the topic, some idiot has to pop up with non-germaine babble.

      • Posted By: IndyCon @ 02/19/2009 8:25:22 AM

        I apologize; this was in response to the comment made by bicfj at 4:00 pm.

  • Posted By: rousch15@hotmail.com @ 02/18/2009 4:32:36 PM

    Of course they handle stress better, as the criminally insane have no conscience.

    • Posted By: IndyCon @ 02/19/2009 8:13:36 AM

      There is a difference between most Special Forces, ParaRescue, SEALS than criminally insane. These are soldiers, airmen and sailors who are in a position to keep you free and their comrades and selves safe under the most dire circumstances. The criminally insane are the ones who are here to do you whatever harm gets them off. They are also the people we choose to elect into trusted office, because we do not considerthe others "worthy" of those positions. Their levels of morality and logic interfere with our priorities like, "Why was so and so kicked off American Idol?"

    • Posted By: No Blind Patriot @ 02/18/2009 4:40:54 PM

      roush15, watch the movie "A Few Good Men", then try to compare the soldiers to criminally insane, sleep tight.

      • Posted By: tboone @ 02/18/2009 4:45:27 PM

        No Blind Patriot - Dummy, that movie is about marines that Code Red another marine and kill him. That hardly supports your argument that they are not "criminally insane." Not that I agree with it, I am just sick of cattle - stupid, mindless cattle.

  • Posted By: weallneedanewhobby @ 02/19/2009 2:20:51 AM

    i think the point of the study was to find a correlation between psychological/chemical advantages and high stress/ combat/survival situation. I do agree with Miykko about the lack of do briefing and psycho analysis in the military and its appalling. The personal outrage she felt seems kinda dumb and probably stems for a feeling of helplessness towards her husbands situation. But regardless because their is a difference between "regular" infantry men and s/o or s/f men or woman. I think the over all point of the study was that ppl that handle stress better generate more stress fighting chemicals and have a certain type of heart beat. Which in turn gives them an advantage in certain types of war fare. maybe unconventional ones as she put it . As far as respect i respect soldiers that join to defend America but come on 6 out of 10 do it because its a job and it has benefits and really this war over the last 8 years was over money not defending America , read a book Miyoko before you go attacking people that write them.

  • Posted By: Miyoko8 @ 02/19/2009 12:59:03 AM

    p.s. the person beneath me is dead on.... some of these mens spirits have been broken down so far to the point where you have a dissorientation for what is right and wrong. I've seen it in SF, Infantry, and SO alike.. also in marines a lot of times. Unfortunately the Army and marines do not provide adequate de-briefing and psycho analysis to these men to realize that they are very *** up in the head (excuse the language, but thats really what it comes down to) So these men go home and ultimately develop alcoholism and/or excessive violence, which is usually layed upon the spouse and/or children. You have to realize that even if they were provided with all the mental help in the world (which they arent), they wouldnt seek it anyways because of fear of being a *** or it showing up on their records that they have been E-valed. and that doesnt look good in the military's eyes, they look down upon soldiers for such things. So we have ourselves this problem of pyschologically broken men that are extremely capable and highly qualified to do some damage with any sort of weapon, or just with their fist if they prefer. Maybe you can go to a local bar over here where I live in Fayetteville N.C./Fort Bragg/Pope AFB where you did your little observation, then you will see the real deal, what really goes down. So you wanna do us all a favor and go thank a soldier today or send a care package to one you dont even know over to iraq or afghanistan. That would be a step in the positive direction.

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