ECONOMY

Death of the Dream

California has come back before, but 'hysterical greens' aren't helping.

By Joel Kotkin | NEWSWEEK
Published Feb 21, 2009
From the magazine issue dated Mar 2, 2009

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  • Posted By: PacificGatePost @ 04/18/2009 1:56:15 AM

    WALL STREET WIELDS INAPPROPRIATE INFLUENCE ON CORPORATE AMERICA

    Big public companies have long been shills at the beck and call of Wall Street investment bankers. EBay???s acquisition of Skype is a perfect model for the abuse.

    http://pacificgatepost.blogspot.com/2009/04/ebay-skype-goldman-morals-and.html

  • Posted By: Jasman847 @ 03/20/2009 9:38:07 PM

    California has its problems, but I don???t believe being green is one of them. The world and California is becoming increasingly crowded. A major problem that California and the rest of the country have is that many of the middle class manufacturing and engineering jobs have been outsourced. We cannot grow the middle class without growing the jobs that are absolutely central to a productive economy ??? manufacturing and engineering jobs.

  • Posted By: junkmail6 @ 02/24/2009 8:45:13 AM

    Thank God I left CA in the 90's. The place is a zoo. Having moved to the Midwest, my main concern is that California seems to be about 10-15 years ahead of the rest of the country. I especially see the "entitled gentry" thing growing right before my eyes, where it never existed before. Scary. On another note, I knew many decent, extremely hard-working people in California. They also happened to be there illegally. Now, I'm meeting the same people here in the Midwest. Best to give green cards to everyone; then we can easily identify and deport the criminals. When we make everyone a criminal through what is now an arbitrary distinction, the real criminals can easily hide.

    • Posted By: dmb12345 @ 03/15/2009 12:13:51 AM

      It is not that simple. The children of the hard workers tend to be underachievers and do not emphasize education. They think they do not have to work hard to get entitlements

    • Posted By: SirJohnWalterTheThird @ 02/24/2009 10:32:27 AM

      Bravo, Let's get real on imigration.
      I heard an Alabama senitor say we should deport all the "iligals" and make the wellfare recipents take ther jobs.
      Ecentaly, make all the freeloaders do all the hard work ;-)
      Nice too here some one speak rationaly, now can you set Rush strait on this? Or do we need to re-open the phsyc wards for the GOP

    • Posted By: Vigilance @ 02/24/2009 9:10:24 AM

      Wonderful comment, and I agree with you...

  • Posted By: sunglaw @ 03/07/2009 9:07:56 AM

    Is it possible to pass comprehensive immigration reform within Obama's first year? Yes, as long as Congress realizes our economy problems are directly linked with our workforce, and our workforce is made up of immigrants (both legal and illegal). Economy problems cannot be solved without solving the immigration problems like increasing work visa and legalizing the undocumented population. These immigrants contribute greatly to our economy by spending as well as contributing their skills and labor. You may contact the author of this thread at http://www.sunglaw.com

  • Posted By: m1cha3lf0x @ 02/25/2009 1:50:27 PM

    Summary:
    * Narcissism is the new epithet we apply to people, especially in Golden State, who act in their own self interest.
    * California has immigrants just like everywhere.
    * California was burned by the great financial collapse of 2009 just like everywhere.
    * Example of a California community built by immigrants: Cupertino. (Migrant workers heard there was good money in picking Apples.)
    * Joel's 3 point plan for economic growth in the golden state:
    1. Cornell-educated doctors invest in suburban strip malls.
    2. Coastal vineyards soak up millions of unemployed immigrants.
    3. Hog farming.

    • Posted By: Kevinj152 @ 02/28/2009 5:10:46 PM

      What he implied behind the statement of "california being burned" in regards to the housing bubble is it got burned worst than most states, it relied almost directly off the exhorbitant gains of housing prices to feul it's ability to fund itself. While other states were hit with the burst they were not completely dependent upon it. They practiced prudence, mind you not to the letter but in a better sense than california practiced it.
      I also want to make clear that no one person can blame the government because the government is the combined process of our democratic system. We are the people who elected officials without doing our own in-depth analysis what they truely believed and their ability to folow through with the things we wanted that they promised.
      As far as the immigrant story goes the author put it in merely as an example of "new growth" or the american ideal. That ideal being american entrepreneurship. finding a need and filling it. It was not an attempt to highlight "well if everyone entered the food industry times would be good."
      As far as the wine vineyards go, well I think he missed the point there. He started with the relevant arguement that while we attempt to make a difference in our enviroment we end up blocking out progress by swinging to extremes. He unfortunately seemed to diverge from this point by making all green people out to be self-satisfying hypocrites.
      Anyone who ends up reading this don't think for a second i'm a bleeding heart liberal or a staunchy republican. That is the reason I wrote this, because in fact most people it seems commenting about this article are in fact "extremists" they are objectively looking at his arguments. Sit back and please look at where the arguemnt is coming from, make connections, and use common sense.

      • Posted By: toterola451 @ 03/01/2009 4:58:06 AM

        <But if I am looking for hope and inspiration, for California or the country, I would look first and foremost at people like the Cardenas family. They create jobs for people who didn't go to Stanford or whose parents lack a trust fund. They constitute what any place needs to survive: risk takers who are self-confident but rarely selfish. These are people who look at the future, not in the mirror.>

        At the risk of sounding like a broken record (anybody remember those?), I will say it again: telling people to model themselves after an ethnic food manufacturer is stupid. The work is back-breaking and repetitive. It does NOT pay enough to live on. And there are no opportunities for education or advancement, outside of being a shift boss.
        The Mexicans (non-native) are going home because the work has dried up. The immigrants are his consumer base. When they're gone, or have no disposable income, Mr. Cardenas will be a "former" business owner.
        If we don't get ahead of the curve,start educating our kids for the global economy, and quit trying to legislate morality, we're going to be there, too. And by "there", I mean the dustbin of history.
        Don't preach to me about common sense when you're drinking kool-aid from a hack writer who has some title from a jacked-up community college in Orange county, either. I'll trust the real "smart guys", thanks.

    • Posted By: Kevinj152 @ 02/28/2009 5:04:19 PM

      What he implied behind the statement of "california being burned" in regards to the housing bubble is it got burned worst than most states, it relied almost directly off the exhorbitant gains of housing prices to feul it's ability to fund itself. While other states were hit with the burst they were not completely dependent upon it. They practiced prudence, mind you not to the letter but in a better sense than california practiced it.
      I also want to make clear that no one person can blame the government because the government is the combined process of our democratic system. We are the people who elected officials without doing our own in-depth analysis what they truely believed and their ability to folow through with the things we wanted that they promised.
      As far as the immigrant story goes the author put it in merely as an example of "new growth" or the american ideal. That ideal being american entrepreneurship. finding a need and filling it. It was not an attempt to highlight "well if everyone entered the food industry times would be good."
      As far as the wine vineyards go, well I think he missed the point there. He started with the relevant arguement that while we attempt to make a difference in our enviroment we end up blocking out progress by swinging to extremes. He unfortunately seemed to diverge from this point by making all green people out to be self-satisfying hypocrites.
      Anyone who ends up reading this don't think for a second i'm a bleeding heart liberal or a staunchy republican. That is the reason I wrote this, because in fact most people it seems commenting about this article are in fact "extremists" they are objectively looking at his arguments. Sit back and please look at where the arguemnt is coming from, make connections, and use common sense.

  • Posted By: Justin Time @ 02/28/2009 1:19:24 PM

    What and the hell was Newsweek thinking in giving an audience to such a right wing pedant like Joel Kotkin. Chapman College? Presidential fellow? This reminds me of being a fellow of the Association of Mutual Admiration Societies: If enough of us say it is so, then it must be. Do you not employ fact checkers? His first lie and obvious misrepresentation is to state that millionaire slum dogs on the Monterey coast are blocking vineyard projects in the Salinas Valley because of it impacting their view shed. Say what? My friends (farmers and ranchers) in the Valley are laughing their arses off over that BS. And now Newsweek has allowed its writers to disparage entire groups of Americans for his own narcissistic ends. This is a matter of transference, and Newsweek missed it. And then to lay the foundation of a new California at the feet of uneducated poor immigrants while referring to the Cornell-trained physician is the height of hypocrisy. The last narcissist I met way a typical Republican gas bag I met in the pub at the Mission Inn in Riverside who complained about President Obama raising his taxes while throwing a $20 tip on a $15 meal.

    • Posted By: toterola451 @ 02/28/2009 2:49:23 PM

      My friend, I am speechless. Your cogent, succinct take-down of this floundering piece was unbelievable!
      I subscribe to the magazine, and I read this article yesterday for the first time.
      My sister and her husband live in the Salinas valley, and I have to agree with you about the author's apparent ignorance of the dichotomy of life in Monterey county. The "viewshed" of the coast has nothing to do with the valley. I'll bet the farmers down there did get a kick out of this article.
      Something you touched on puzzles me, as well: why are working class people upset that President Obama is planning to restore the maximum income tax rates to Clinton-era levels? You can read the parameters of the tax plan. It's right there in print: if you make less than $250,000/yr. NET, your taxes will be less.
      How many of you complainers reach that threshold? I would be willing to bet not many. $250,000 NET suggests a really large cash-flow, as businesses can deduct nearly everything, if they are careful.
      I believe that this issue (or the "Fairness Doctrine") will turn out to be this years #1 "straw man".
      BTW, Excellent post!

  • Posted By: toterola451 @ 02/28/2009 1:42:46 AM

    The author uses ad hominem attacks, spread around to everyone in CA, to help us to swallow his thinly vieled racist diatribe. Calling everbody an SOB may win you a few hoots and catcalls, but it won't pay the rent. Neither will a job working for an ethnic food manufacturer.
    More anti-everything swill, short on plans and long on complaints.

  • Posted By: toterola451 @ 02/28/2009 1:38:19 AM

    To quote the dear departed Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, "You are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts".
    This article uses the tired symmetry of calling all apples bad. Just because "The Governator" has an axe to grind with the public employee unions, the GOP legislators want to make a "principled stand", and some state Democrats serve too small a constituency, that doesn't give this thinly veiled racist attack-job room to breathe.
    I find it immensely interesting that the only worthwhile job creation the author found was in the food industry. Careers in the food manufacturing business don't pay mortgages, car payments. doctor bills, and college tuition. They pay starvation wages, are incredibly dangerous, and do not reward longevity. I should know, I worked for Sarah Lee for several years.
    Once again: just because you know who's wrong and point it out, this does not give you license to tar everyone with the same brush. Telling the people of CA to follow the example of a person who has carved out a niche in ethnic food manufacturing is pure idiocy. If people can't make a living wage, your product has no market-base. Reductio ad absurdum.

  • Posted By: DisciplineIsFreedom @ 02/28/2009 12:54:11 AM

    Wow, this basically became an immigration debate since I first posted on this article. Well to contribute to the current conversation, let me just say that I had to move to CA for personal reasons, but wish I could find some place else to live that would actually work for me. These coming years while I pay off debt and accumulate wealth I really need to be in a high wage location (while personally living quite frugally) and since I can't bear the cold that rules out pretty much every other high wage area but CA. So here I am stuck, for the time being.

    I think I'll be heading back to HI when I get things to a point where I can make that work again. No border with Mexico. And don't bother calling me a racist. Not only am I not white, but whites are a minority in Hawaii even more so than in CA. But the ethnic minorities there are overwhelmingly American or legal immigrants. No border with Mexico.

    As someone else pointed out, it's about culture not race. Mexico is a pretty hurting place, and it's that way for a reason. The Mexican people have made it that way, and I'm not particularly interested in living within that cultural environment. Yes, Mexico does seem to be reclaiming CA. I just need to make sure I can get out of here before it fully does. Let all the people who want to create sanctuary cities for illegals be the ones left to live with them. Serves them right.

  • Posted By: bfirger@comcast.net @ 02/27/2009 5:33:16 PM

    Dear Joel Kotkin - Thank you so much. Yes,we have held our breath hoping Schwarzenegger would be less disastrous than we feared - yes, he loves the environment and wants federal money but yes, he is a buffoon. Your only error was buying the Bay Area's image of itself as the prettiest - it ain't, not externally (anyplace along the Southern coast, La Jolla, Del Mar, up to Laguna and Newport is certainly more breathtakingly beautiful - and swimmable), and living here (I'm in the E. Bay) reminds me of Manhattan in the 60s when I was ready to go home after suffering through getting to work at 8:30 or 9. It's exhausting here. The traffic is worse than anywhere on earth and getting anything built (the Bay Bridge was damaged by an earthquake 20 years ago! Los Angeles fixed three freeways and numerous other critical areas in four months!) is hopeless. Narcissism is a good description. Selfishness. Arrogance. Hostility - don't expect drivers to be sane or to follow rules or courtesy (or make any effort to survive.) Also, no one talks about Arnold's three breakfasts (or brunches) with Enron and specifically, Ken Lay in the months preceding the recall of sweet Gov. Davis - it was the power crisis and not the budget that got Arnold into office. I grew up in what the idiots used to call Taxachusetts (look at its progressive attitudes toward health care, education and other daily needs) - despite or maybe because of the ill-conceived Prop. 13 (we are now once again 50th in the nation in education, behind Mississippi, I think), taxes here are ridiculous. Even in years when I get some federal rebate (I earn lower than the median state income), I always owe more to California - for what? Finally, cheers for discussing immigration. Especially as I lived for 13 years in San Diego and Orange Counties, I grew hoarse pointing out the payments INTO the economy from payroll and other taxes; the diligence of most immigrant schoolkids (who were at least bilingual - whether or not the stingy schoolboards approved of bilingual ed.), and the exhuastsing and frequently humiliating work performed by parents, many of whom had occupied a much higher echelon in their home countries. Thank you again. You're also sadly right that California is not going to rise again. Barb Firger, Oakland CA

  • Posted By: Ian K @ 02/26/2009 6:07:45 PM

    Is this Newsweek or The Onion? Joel is always good for a chuckle and here he does not disappoint, with his usual potpourri of Trustafarians, NIMBYs, noble (legal) immigrants, narcissists and self-absorbed hippies and their progeny.

    According to Joel "Net outmigration has been growing every year since 2003 and should reach well over 200,000 by 2011", with the strong implication that they are fleeing the appalling specimens he so eloquently conjures up - the browns and the greens. However, I would guess that a large component of this outmigration is undocumented illegal workers heading home, so this should reduce the "palpable sense of threats" this "racial tide" is accused of bringing.

    Here's my favorite part: the fable that the "local progressives - largely wealthy people living on the Monterey coast" blocked good salt-of-the-earth jobs being created in the Salinas valley because they "don't want a facility that interferes with their viewshed". Well, the affluent Monterey coast communities of Pebble Beach and Carmel are 10 miles and a range of hills away from the Salinas valley, so unless the fabled California light can boomerang there is no way on God's green earth that a vineyard in the Salinas valley can even be seen from the Monterey coast, let alone interfere with the viewshed!

    Here's another fun one: "both Hollywood and Silicon Valley are dominated by people with access to money or the most elite educations". Well, "people with access to money" is aka shareholders and venture capitalists, which is, well, capitalism, and that's what makes the American world go round - or at least did until the Bushies wrecked it. Then there is the slander on those with "elite educations", as if these industries would be better led by - who? - the uneducated? Maybe he is referring to the Stanford-educated founders of Google and Sun and such? Well, Joel, these guys dominate because the started it, they risked it, they worked bone-hard for it, they own it, they???ve earned it - so get over it.

    Then we get heartwarming tales of unpretentious immigrants who carved out the American dream. Regarding the vaunted Cardenas family, the odds are that they or their ancestors were illegal immigrants and that at first, when they started killing hogs with a bullet to the head and selling them off the back of a truck they were doing so without the knowledge or permission of the Corona health department, and earning cash without interference from the taxman, and only later, God bless them, becoming legal taxpaying citizens and positive contributors to the state's finances. Which brings us back to the dreaded "nonwhite demographic": contrary to many anguished comments here, the trend is for all immigrants over time, regardless of legal status, to assimilate and educate and move up and contribute, and it is in all our interests to ensure that this process is facilitated rather

  • Posted By: b.lo @ 02/26/2009 6:28:33 PM

    I disagree with your assessment of the governator as "B-grade" actor. Have you ever WATCHED Predator or Commando!? Clearly the man has the aptitude to garner fans to the big screen. He's the action hero template. Now, in terms of his role as the Governor, he's fairly mediocre, but not bad (great for a Republican.)

  • Posted By: RupertPupkin @ 02/26/2009 4:54:19 PM

    I just finished this article and I think that Joel Kotkin is way off the mark. The sub-prime mortgage crisis was a NATIONWIDE problem. According to an article I just read in the "New Yorker" called "The Ponzi State", the mortgage crisis started in Florida. "The Ponzi State" is the best article I have read on the subject and I think far more comprehensive than Joel Kotkin's heavily biased article. Florida's economy was almost totally dependent on the real estate boom. Low income and property taxes helped put people with modest wages in over-valued houses. These houses were built cheaply by greedy developers and sold by amoral realtors.

    What created the sub-prime mortage crisis was a government that did not regulate the real estate industry carefully. If you are looking for someone to blame, point your finger at banks and wall street. They allowed lenders to hand out credit to anyone who wanted it and then profited from the result. When I read Joel Kotkin's article, it seemed like he was trying blame all the wrong people. Greed is the cause of this mess, not progressive politics and so-called "narcissism". Joel, if you pulled your head out of your ass long enough to see the daylight, you might wake up and figure out what's going on.

  • Posted By: gregov @ 02/23/2009 11:08:39 PM

    This author should take a look at a map of California. I generally agree with the article, but comparing Cupertino to Riverside and San Gabriel Valley is quite idiotic. Apple Inc. is located in Cupertino, and one could make an argument that the heart of Silicon Valley is Cupertino, since it's about 5 miles south of San Jose. Also, check the home prices in Cupertino and compare them to Riverside, I'd say Cupertino is not on the periphery. I understand what he was saying but he said it wrong. Mexican-Americans have a high population in Riverside and San Gabriel. Whereas Cupertino has a high population of Chinese-Americans.

    • Posted By: Redcap @ 02/26/2009 2:42:08 PM

      The writer seems to be confusing Arnold with Ronald Reagan. There is nothing "B grade" about the terminator.

  • Posted By: SCboi67 @ 02/26/2009 2:22:36 AM

    Joel Kotkin's article is politically motivated poppycock which does a huge disservice to the state of California and both its internationally born and domestically born population. He, like his predecessor Mike Davis (see City of Quartz, greatest B.S. book ever written about L.A.), giddily predict the demise of the Golden State, like Tornado Chasers dreamily imagine a deadly tornado sweeping across the prairie. Unfortunately for them, they both engage in extremely cognitively lazy writing about a place which loves to defy simplistic description and conceptualization. For a much better, well-thought out, optimistic take on one part of the state, Los Angeles, please read the following recent address by the President of USC, Stephen Sample, to the Los Angeles World Affairs Council, about why Los Angeles is poised to take on the title of true "Capital of the Pacific Rim": http://www.usc.edu/president/speeches/2008/world_affairs_council.html
    I simply love and believe in this amazing city and state.

  • Posted By: Student of History @ 02/21/2009 10:39:02 PM

    Mr. Kotkin, you are sorely mistaken if you believe Proposition 187 was passed by California voters simply to make it "OK to deny school and medical services to people because, at the end, they looked different." This is an ignorant and unfair statement. Prop 187 passed because Californians were (and still are) tired of paying the bills of people who did not contribute to our system. No matter their "look," the illegal immigrants who use the medical and school services are draining the funds for social services that they are not entitled to because they do not pay enough taxes to cover their costs. What an awful statement to make about Californians, some of the most tolerant people in the country. We are not racists by any means, we simply want to preserve our social programs for Americans, not for people who chose to come here illegally, refuse to learn the language, and do not pay into the system they EXPECT to utilize to support their families. I am dissapointed in Newsweek for committing such a fallacy to print.

    • Posted By: Proud to be Californian @ 02/21/2009 11:16:58 PM

      I agreed with your post. It's not fair to the Americans who were born in Calfiornia. I mean they come in here to our country and get paid and sent the US money to their country and not pay taxes here. I don't think it's not right at all. and I'm not racist either but fair is fair.

      • Posted By: tlo724 @ 02/22/2009 1:04:47 AM

        Actually, Illegal immigrants can and do pay taxes on money they earn. Yes, they do use social security numbers that are not theirs, but they can and do apply for what is called an ITIN number. This number is assigned to them by the IRS when they file their taxes. ITIN numbers can also be assigned to their children as well. Again, I do not condone them using other people's social security numbers but I work for a non profit that prepares taxes for free for people who make less then $55, 000 a year. I would say at least half of the people coming into just my office alone are people who are wanting to apply for an ITIN number. I think it shows that most of the illegal immigrants who are out there busting their butts and working are willing to contribute not only to the work force but trying to start becoming productive and responsible members of their respective communities. I think most of them are trying to start a positive drive towards becoming citizens and doing things the correct and legal way.

        • Posted By: Student of History @ 02/23/2009 5:05:09 AM

          tlo724 - I am aware that they do pay some taxes, which is why I said they do not pay enough to cover the costs of the social services they utilize. However, I hardly think that they are stealing identities simply because they want to be good citizens (because that is exaclty what stealing an SSN amounts, identity theft. Oh wait, that's illegal right??) More likely, they are stealing identities to further access social programs they are NOT entitled to and they are probably filing taxes in hope of getting a return (if they do, doesn't that amount to us (the taxpayers) paying them to break the law?).
          Once again, they are draining the system in a manner disproportionate with the amount paid out to them . I think that coming here illegally, refusing to learn the language, and refusing to enculturate themselves to our established society proves that the large majority to not want to be good American citizens, they want a piece of the American dream while retaining allegiance to their own country.

          • Posted By: christopherkidwell1 @ 02/24/2009 4:15:49 AM

            Wrong again, Student of History. The fact is that in most states illegal immigrants are TERRIFIED to take social services for fear of the INS being called down on them. And the Social Services THEMSELVES say that 90% of the people getting welfare, food stamps, etc. are UNITED STATES BORN CITIZENS!

            • Posted By: Student of History @ 02/25/2009 4:59:06 AM

              christopherkidwell - If the only social services you are referring to are food stamps and welfare, then yes, you are correct. However, the majority of the drain comes from education, medical care, and incarceration. For example, anchor babies, as summer4077 pointed out, are an enormous problem in that we pay for their medical when they are born, their education costs throught out primary and secondary school, and the ER bills when their illegal parents are unable to furnish documentation to be billed. The main drains come from services that you can't physically had out, because, as you said, they are terrified of deportation. However, they are not so terrified that they won't send their kids to school, go to the emergency room when sick, or get incarcereated when breaking the law.

              Don't get me wrong, I definately do not think they are the entire problem in the state, not even close. We are experiencing a spending/credit/housing bubble hangover that is going to take a mountain of effort and money to solve, neither of which we have now. The reason illegal immigration was brought up by me in the first place was because of the garbage the author said about Prop 187. Honestly, my main issue with illegal immigrants is the outright REFUSAL to enculturate themselves to our society. I see it every single day, it is impossible for you to convince me that this is not happening.
              We are a nation born of immigrants, that is for sure, and there is nothing at all wrong with that. But the focus has shifted from moving here and becoming as "American" as possible like the immigrants of the nineteenth century to staying as foreign as possible while still expecting all the benefits. I think public health and education for all is a great concept, but it will never work without a proper structure that ensures it will not be exploited. It is better to offer good health care and education to American citizens rather than mediocre health care and education to anyone willing to make the trip across a border.

            • Posted By: Vigilance @ 02/24/2009 7:31:29 AM

              Yup. Thanks for helping expose some of these ground-level truths - namely, that the illegal immigrants are NOT to blame for everything that's going wrong with the state (far from it, in fact).

        • Posted By: Vigilance @ 02/23/2009 8:22:12 AM

          Great post. Most illegals ARE busting their asses, but the kinds of people who perpetually whine about them would never notice; in my opinion (reinforced by the time that they seem to have plenty of time to hop on the internet and complain) they don't really know what hard work really is.

          Most of them are also too poor to be able to afford the luxury of coming on here and speaking in their defense against a lot of racist whites with resentments, so I will continue to try my best to do it for them...

          • Posted By: Vigilance @ 02/23/2009 8:26:57 AM

            "Them" in the second paragraph refers to illegals, by the way, not rich racist whites with enough time to cry about all the brown people online but not to try to improve their own job skills to try to fix their own finances without blaming it on everyone else.

            I'm sorry to be so harsh with my posts on this thread, but these people talk a good game. A LOT of their counterparts will be utterly nasty and vile on the street if you come up to them at a protest, up to and including accusing people of violence falsely to try to get them arrested. The anti-illegal movement on the street is made up of a LOT of ex-prison Aryans, "Minutemen", and other ignorant whites with unfair resentments - at least that's been my experience.

            The version of it all that ends up on here has usually been scrubbed to hide all of that...

            • Posted By: summer4077 @ 02/23/2009 8:54:01 AM

              Vigilance, usually I agree with you entirely, but not this time. While I'm not against immigration by any means, I AM against *ILLEGAL* immigration, regardless of country of origin. Illegal aliens are breaking the law and the costs they are imposing on this country are staggering. It is very true that this country was built by immigrants--legal immigrants that learned the language, worked hard, and abided by the laws of this nation. It's sad that instead of learning our language, we're supposed to become a bilingual country. And anchor babies should be done away with--one parent should be of legal citizenship. Also, education for immigrants needs to change. We're consistently ranked among the bottom of developed countries in education--yet we allow immigrants to go to school for free? Gee, wonder why we're becoming stupider every year...

              • Posted By: Vigilance @ 02/23/2009 9:19:06 AM

                I respect your opinion, summer, and would enjoy the chance to have a longer debate with you, since I know you from your previous posts to be a woman of intelligence and patience in discussions like these.

                I'm not generally in favor of illegal immigration, but our immigration agencies are confused boondoggles that take years to process applications. In my opinion, they're a bigger waste of money than the social services offered to the illegals, because they are next to completely incompetent and confused and overworked, but the racism around the issue and the continued presence of people like Elton Gallegly in our international representation stops it from getting fixed.

                Immigration DOES have a lot of problems - but having been personally and physically threatened, and lied about, to the police, by anti-illegal-immigration protestors, my opinion is that they are a far bigger problem and a bigger threat to American peace and stability than the illegals are.

                • Posted By: summer4077 @ 02/23/2009 3:05:31 PM

                  Ah, how refreshing to have an adult response without name calling and "your uneducated" (spelling on purpose) comments. Lol. I do see your points and I'm not sure what the solution is. That's the million dollar question. I think many anti-immigration protestors are indeed strictly against all immigration, not just illegal immigration. That I do not agree with. This country has always benefited from our diversity and I'm confident we will continue to do so. However, I think American money should go to legal Americans first. For example...a couple years ago I was an unisured student. I came down with a pretty nasty case of food poisoning and landed in the ER. You'd better believe I ended up with $2k in hospital bills that I had to pay every dime of. If I didn't they would have put it on my credit report. However, there were Mexicans in the room right next to me that conveniently forgot their drivers' licenses, social security numbers, and insurance cards. Riiiight. So they skip out of there and I get stuck with higher charges that they KNOW I will pay or face ruining my credit.

                  • Posted By: Vigilance @ 02/24/2009 9:30:05 AM

                    Summer-

                    I'm sorry you had a bad experience at the ER. You're not alone, and there ARE illegals who seek treatment with no ability to pay. Citizens often end up waiting longer as a result of it.

                    I've probably been in more ERs where this has happened than you have - I went in with a panic attack once, with the symptoms resembling more or less exactly a genuine heart attack, and was passed a form by an uncaring receptionist, who sat impassively while I almost passed out on the floor trying to fill it out.

                    But I don't blame the illegals, who mostly just get sick and don't know better - it wasn't them who had the responsibility to try to treat me and yet would have been willing to watch impassively without any compassion if I'd genuinely died on the floor (as happened to a woman in Los Angeles who died waiting for treatment as janitors mopped around her body) - it was the receptionist, and the rest of the incompetent staff at that insitution, which also sent

                    The illegals are NOT the problem with our medical industry - it's the fact that it's understaffed, overpaid, and that a LOT of our doctors are arrogant *** who care more about their bank accounts than the sick, in my opinion. I went to this place with three panic attacks and mostly was treated discompassionately each time, and given a bill for hundreds or even thousands of dollars each time simply for the privilege of lying in a bed until the panic attack wore off - possibly because, after that, it would usually take hours just to get a nurse to fill out the necessary paperwork to let me go..

                    If we reined in some of the selfish attitudes of our medical professionals and cut out all the crappy paperwork - half of which shouldn't exist in a modern era of computers anyway - and offered more government aid to hospitals and less to the military-industrial complex - we would do a lot more to help people receive good care and treatment than if we just kick out sick illegals and let them die in alleyways or whatnot.

                    I don't think I need to explain to people that not treating sick people, legal or not, is a public health hazard to those who come in contact with those people later, due to contagion...

                    • Posted By: summer4077 @ 02/24/2009 2:53:44 PM

                      I've had the exact same experience with panic attacks--not fun. I went to the ER the first time it happened, too, thinking it was something wrong with my heart. Very scary stuff. Even later when you know what's happening to you and "no one has ever died from a panic attack," you still feel like you're dying!
                      I do agree that healthcare in this country is pretty much useless. It's outrageous that citizens are treated basically based on the job they have. Absolutely ridiculous.

                • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 02/23/2009 6:21:32 PM

                  Then you are either dishonest or you are fabricating. Either way,the impact of illegal immigration on crime rates in America is galaxies beyond the feeble attempts of the xenophobic ''minuteman''or ''Aryan'' to contribute.

                  Phoenix Arizona,in its Number One position as the worlds kidnapping capital [no,not Islamabad,nor Gaza,or Beirut ,or Moscow but Phoenix,of all places],earns its position solely due to illegal immigrant gang warfare erupting all along our southern border. Indeed,take every single ''minuteman'',''Aryan'',''Klansman'' or ''John Bircher''in America,all of them,and these would not total the membership of one lone Mexican gang,that of the SURENOS[13] ,whose membership is estimated at 250,000 members in California,over a half-million nationwide.
                  Such numbers [even erasing MS-13,NORTENOS,LATIN KINGS,BLOODS,and others],neccesarily increase crime in the regions where they hold sway threatening security to an alarming degree not countenanced by any ''minuteman''. Human and drug traffic,kidnapping,murder,driveby shootings,extortion,robbery,car theft and hijacking,identity fraud and forgery and other rackateeering devices are impacting American cities everywhere,and not simply in the ''West''.[California: Two of three state prison inmates belongs to a Mexican gang allied with the nations organic ''mafia'',which is engaged in a war in Mexico,a literal war].
                  Areas of impact other-than criminal are not addressed. Environmental impacts,such as fauna and flora destruction along our southern borders,the refuse of meth ''stills''into streams and rivers. Garbage by the hundreds of thousands of tons,medical overburdening of hospitals from San Diego to the Rio Grande,often adressing knife and gunshot victims of ''coyotero''and gang warfare creating ever escalating demands on taxpayers as do fire , police and amblulance protections.
                  The insertion of ''racism''into the mix is kneejerk and non-productive. We lived our entire lives in the West amongst older [and newer] families with the surnames of a ''Rodriguez'',a ''Lopez'', a ''DeHerrera'' a ''Lozano''and others,all a portion of keeping pace with a American dream including intermarrying, service in the armed forces, business ownership and education that did not involve turf wars,murder or high-capacity automatic weapons,that are a portion of what is ruining huge swaths of this nation at this moment.

                  www.fbi.gov/ www.usdoj.gov: The FBI Uniform Crime Statistics of 2007

                  www.igtf.info The Los Angeles Interagency Gang Task Force, Jan. 2009

                  www.newsweek.com NEWSWEAK June 13,2006: ''The Hard Truths About Illegal Immigration'' Samuelson,Robert J.

                  The National Geographic Channel [Cable]: ''Prison Nation'' Documentary. Feb.08,2009 [and: repeats. DVD].

                  • Posted By: christopherkidwell1 @ 02/24/2009 4:14:20 AM

                    Excuse me, Mr. Holmes, but the FBI each year releases figures showing how many 'illegal immigrants' are convicted of crimes compared to legal immigrants and U.S. residents or citizens...... the legal immigrants and U.S. residents/citizens lord over the illegal immigrants by FACTORS OF TEN for most crimes except drug crimes (which should have been made legal long ago!).

                    • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 02/24/2009 2:39:07 PM

                      This argument holds as much water as a shotgunned bucket.

                      For as you see,Mexicans [''Hispanics''] are not given such a racial designation. They are referred to in the FBI Uniform Crime reports as ''White'',thus skewing the numbers. To further dissect who is ''white/caucasian'' and who is ''white/Hispanic'' in these crimes a April 2005 GAO [General Accounting Office,US Government],took on the arduous task of separating the two groups and what these found was alarming.
                      Of 494,736 illegal immigrant inmates for violent crimes in state and federal prisons,all had at least eight prior arrests for various crimes,but 81% of this total,had arrests for violent crimes including murder ,robbery and rape. Worse,the entirety of the focus on all of these illegal criminals was on:

                      'prior deported''

                      This is,that they were busted and kicked out for a non or violent crime,returned,and committed yet more violent crimes upon Americans.

                      The fact remains that there is no lucid immigration policy to deal with ''high/qualified''immigrants for critical jobs fields and the southern borders illegals who are becoming increasingly violent,and as even the liberal PEW Hispanic Center has observed,are not assimilating. They are bringing the horrors of Cuidad Juarez,Nuevo Laredo,and Tijuana north of the border into our nation. Republicans want cheap labour. Democrats ,more votes and thus pander to phony fears based on equally phony ''racism''while more Americans die in the crossfire.

                      www.gao.gov

                      www.pew.org

                  • Posted By: Vigilance @ 02/24/2009 9:37:29 AM

                    Lee, with sherriffs like Joe Arpaio routinely denying civil rights to inmates or even detainees to the point of negligent homicide - read the Wiki article if any of you like - Arizona has made its own bed with this kind of thing. As long as there are torturers like Arpaio running the local police forces, that state is going to basically be in a perpetual, bloody war with its own criminal elements.

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio

                    I have every faith the gangs there are as bad as you say. I also have faith that the sheriffs and Aryan mindsets in the local police forces are far, far worse, and that's all I'll say about the matter.

                    I personally think that if you want to solve the problem, it would do a lot to lock up men like Arpaio first, then worry about the gang problem after that, but that's just my opinion and two cents.

                    • Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 02/24/2009 12:08:51 PM

                      Kneejerk idiocy which is irrelevant to this issue. Arapaio did not make the SURENOS,MS-13,or NORTENOS. Further,he has absolutely nothing to do with the Mexican drug cartels usage of American illegal immigrant gangs to conduct home invasions to kidnap Americans or those in this country on legal visas.[Indeed,to further destroy your dullwitted case entirely,we look not to an ''Arapaio'' ,but to the tolerant confines of the San Francisco Police Dept. which released a member of the NORTENOS back in September of 2008 who then went on a shooting rampage on Market St. that murdered three innocents. This man was a illegal immigrant set free by the SFPD under the cities ''haven'' policy for illegals. But these people are just as dead. And the violence continues,most recently,with the brutal rape of a lesbian woman by Mexican gang members in Richmond,There are thousands more instances where these came from,none involving even periphially,a ''Arapaio'' ''Aryans'' or ''minutemen'' but taking place in what are arguably Americas most ''tolerant'' locales,thus,sheep to the slaughter].

                  • Posted By: Mark Thieme @ 02/23/2009 8:03:10 PM

                    Huh?

              • Posted By: Vigilance @ 02/23/2009 9:21:27 AM

                " It is very true that this country was built by immigrants--legal immigrants that learned the language, worked hard, and abided by the laws of this nation."

                I think you might be surprised at how much of our nation was built by illegals throughout its entire history, actually.

                People have an idealized view that most immigration pre-1960 or so was legal - I'm pretty sure this was far from the case...

          • Posted By: WEEEEWILLY @ 02/24/2009 11:53:47 AM

            Too bad working hard has no bearing on the laws pertaining to immigration. Working hard is how one keeps a job, not how I would apply for citizenship of Mexico, for instance. In fact, iI hav eliven in Mexico and will tell you that it has immigration law far more severe than Canada or the U.S. and as far as working in Mexico "forgetaboutit"! To obtain a work permit you first must show that you have a skill that is not present in citizens of Mexico that are looking for work, for instance teaching english(what i did). I can't help but notice that you continually attempt to slap down anyone not having your extreme tolerance for law breakers and charity to anyone who happens to be able to sprint across the border, seems an intolerant attitude to me!

        • Posted By: summer4077 @ 02/23/2009 8:04:49 AM

          I think you are sorely mistaken in thinking the majority of illegals are honest tax-paying citizens. Most of them work under the table in construction or agriculture, or odd jobs needed at the moment. They are NOT paying taxes. I'm sorry if this seems harsh, but illegal immigrants most certainly do not pull their own weight in the U.S. We are paying for their medical care and their anchor babies while Americans go without. Illegal immigrants are criminals (thus "illegal") that should be forced to legally assimilate--become a citizen, pay taxes, learn English, etc--or move back to their own country.

    • Posted By: christopherkidwell1 @ 02/24/2009 4:10:30 AM

      Easy answer: Scrap the immigration laws and allow ANYONE to come to the United States and get a job, as long as they pay American taxes and file American tax returns if they are in the United States more than a year! Problem solved for the rest of time!
      The real reason for the immigration laws is not to 'control immigration'.... it was to pacify the people who didn't want to have to compete with a foreigner (who was usually more likely to work well and be willing to take low wages) for jobs.

    • Posted By: christopherkidwell1 @ 02/24/2009 4:08:36 AM

      Easy answer to this problem: scrap the immigration laws, allow anyone who wants to come to the United States to come to the United States and hold a job as long as they pay taxes! Problem solved, period, done with, OVER! Argument finished!

      The only reason that people do NOT want to do the above is because they do not want to have any competition from immigrants, legal or NOT!

    • Posted By: thebobw @ 02/24/2009 1:56:13 AM

      Posted By: Student of History @ 02/21/2009 10:39:02 PM
      Thank you for your observation of californias illegial welfare problem. the rest of the nation
      is suffering the same probem. However no body seem to have the intestnal fortitude to speak up about it
      Thank you for doing so.
      thebobw

    • Posted By: thebobw @ 02/24/2009 1:47:09 AM

      Posted By: Student of History @ 02/21/2009 10:39:02 PM
      Thank you for youe candid comment this is what the entire USA is facing but afraid to say it
      you are to be congratulated for speaking out.
      BobW

    • Posted By: Dragonheartxp @ 02/23/2009 3:41:19 PM

      I agree with this post....I got sick and no insurance and was handed a 45K plus bill from Ventura County and having to pay every month, if I was from outside the US it would have all been free. I guess this is what I got for being a RVN Vet.....Thank You USA

  • Posted By: mkmk @ 02/25/2009 2:47:31 AM

    california is going to hell. it rewards the selfish and narcissists but does nothing for all the small businesses that employed people. it has driven out small businesses in droves. there is no incentives . so california will go down further cutting money on education will just make the state have even dumber residents.. what will be left are the real losers of the world. what kind of state would waive -7 0r 800 hundred thousand dollars in fees to the grammys -even though they cant pay the state employess.

  • Posted By: Faustius @ 02/24/2009 10:12:49 PM

    The state is going to go bankrupt in a few years. We might be able to shoulder our existing debt by beating more taxes out of a dead horse. However, we never are going to be able to support all the new bond debt that's voted for every single election cycle.

    Unless politicians strip from Californians the ability to vote for more debt with a popular vote (which will never happen), or voters stop voting for new bond measures every election (which will also never happen), California is doomed.

  • Posted By: Faustius @ 02/24/2009 10:08:38 PM

    The state is going bankrupt. Plain and simple. We may be able to shoulder our already existing debt by beating more taxes out of a dead horse. However we won't be able to fund all the new bond debt that's going to continue to get voted in every single election cycle.

    Unless the politicians strip the ability for new debt to be created popular vote from voters(which will never happen), or the people stop voting for more bond measures (which will also never happen), California is going to go bankrupt in a few short years.

  • Posted By: RO in Reno @ 02/24/2009 12:40:59 PM

    The article said "In the '90s, for example, the number of Latino-owned businesses already was expanding at four times the rate of Anglo ones"
    I find that interesting, the fact is most Latino business's are operated on a cash basis avoiding the normal tax issue most startup business's are more apt to take the more legitimate route and find themselves at the mercy of the California state board of Equalization, who will routinely run any one foolish enough to do a tax return with business deductions.
    Legal or not they are instantly tagged and audited by the IRS at eh request of the CSBoE and harassed into oblivion.
    Swarznegger was trying to get business's to return to California not realizing why they had left in the first place.
    The article mentioned Jerry Brown who as the Attorney General of California sees his responsibility to defend the Government not the people.
    Swarznegger is a good man and an intelligent one but he has the rest of the California Government undoing what he has tried to do faster than he realizes.
    It's a shame California is a nice place but you don't want to take your business there. Not if you love it.

    • Posted By: summer4077 @ 02/24/2009 2:37:30 PM

      Another thing to consider are tax breaks for businesses owned by minorities. Not sure if California has one, but Ohio does so I can bet CA does as well. I do the books for a friend's business...he almost put it in his wife's name because of how much cheaper it would be having it owned by a woman.

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