JON MEACHAM

Faith Isn't Under Fire

The difference between Christianity and 'Christian America'

By Jon Meacham | Newsweek Web Exclusive
Apr 8, 2009

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  • Posted By: mclegrande @ 05/10/2009 9:58:51 AM

    Well said. I read your piece and found it thoughtful and accurate, and I am an evangelical Christian. Christianity, while it has influenced American culture, can only truly influence when the love of Christ is evidenced in the actual living out - in the individual lives of Christians. This, I am sad to say, is why it no longer influences American culture - because Christians are not walking the walk.

  • Posted By: Salero21 @ 04/09/2009 5:33:10 PM

    True Faith is contagious but not everybody gets it. We're to freely share it and spread it but not everybody takes it.

    I'm always baffle by the fantabulous claims of a Christian America. How can a Nation or a people for that matter, that through most of its history has had violence as a trait, be at all christian. Either history has never been taugh well, or there is a case of endemic short and selective memory.

    If there is or ever was a Christian America; Where did it go? This attempt to baptize a country, whether the people in it believes in their hearts or not, has proven futile. Is like saying that all the people inside a building, are there because either they all live or work there without exception. Not taking into account what type of building it is. Not everybody who is in a Hospital is there because is sick, not everybody inside a hotel is a guest. If people were suffering from an attack of the contagious Faith I mentioned, and were taken to a clinic. Does that means everybody inside the clinic has been affected? This fantabulous claim has done nothing else but to give millions of people a false assurance, a false security. Faith in God and in Christ Jesus is first an individual commitment and gift. Each and everyone has to have it's own. It cannot be credited to some on account of others.

    • Posted By: rpearlston @ 04/10/2009 1:40:59 AM

      "We're to freely share it and spread it but not everybody takes it. "

      Wrong, You're free to try to share it, but your freedom to do so, your right to do so, ends where the next person's right to NOT want to share it begins. You do not have tthe right to "share" with those who aren't interested in your prosletizing. You do not have the right to hound others into submission. You do not have the right to tell others that they must drop all rational thought, all logic, and instead take up superstition as a way of life.

      And yet, this is precisely what you attempt to do. Some else's refusal to "take it" is abhorent to you, and that isn't your right, it's your wrong. That false assurance, false securty of which you speak is your attempt to hide from yourself the fact that you don't feel assured or secure without your adult version of a baby's blanky - religion.

      • Posted By: Salero21 @ 05/06/2009 12:41:31 AM

        No sorry, you're in the wrong. I am not to try, I am to share it freely without reservations. It is obvious to anyone that u have no clue at all of what you're saying. Simply because you did not undestand at all what I said. Im not writing about a right or a duty thought is my duty and my Joy to share. Actually is more a Joy to have it and to share than a duty, although both go hand in hand. I can't share what I don't have, but if I have it I'll freely share it. With u or anyone else. It is your priviledge and right to refuse and not take it. But mine is not just a right, that is not enough to begin with. It is an unmeasurable privilege to have Faith, because not everybody has it. Not everyone receives it, not everyone takes it. Your are wrong again in that Im attempting to do so. Too late my friend for you to say. Because if u haven't noticed, I already did share some. Freely, without any reservations. Not only because the opportunity presented itself. But because I have a little Faith in Jesus, thought little is enough to share and spread it. Thank you very much.

  • Posted By: lopweek @ 04/22/2009 7:16:07 AM

    I think some individuals are more likely to read the title of the original piece immediately becoming defensive, completely missing the point. Topics of Church and State can be very complex; however I think this was meant to be very straight forward requiring no in-depth interpretation or a Master of Divinity to understand. Agree or disagree, fine, but I take offense to people who are offended by the original piece.

    • Posted By: Logicitout @ 04/22/2009 12:42:32 PM

      Have you ever heard of something declining by 8 to 10 percent and then being described as the rise and FALL of.
      The rise and fall of something is always is a description used when something is virtually destroyed.
      Of course Christianity is the newsweek target.
      Can you imagine if their was a 10 percent reduction in female politicians or homosexuals.
      Would you hear the same description used ?

  • Posted By: Logicitout @ 04/20/2009 7:27:16 PM

    Virtually all major translations will tell you that Mark 16: 9-20 is not in the most early reliable manuscripts.
    These verses do not contradict or add any major essential doctrine.
    Where is the tampering ? I see just honesty on the manuscript evidence.

    • Posted By: ep122 @ 04/21/2009 1:42:48 PM

      This verse was flat out added into the text. The writing style has been analyzed and it is different than anything that is in the New Testament.

  • Posted By: Logicitout @ 04/17/2009 2:46:43 PM

    They witnessed the execution and three days later 500 witnessed him alive.
    What do you call that ?

    There is zero evidence that the books of the Bible have been manipulated or tampered with.
    In fact the opposite is true. Read up on the dead sea scrolls, just another confirmation that the manuscripts we have today reflect an accurate copy of the originals. You can look at the manuscripts ! And there are NO manuscripts which disagree with each other in content. If you could produce such manuscripts they would be plastered all over every atheist web site in the world. think about it sms, all you hear is claims and rumors, No manuscripts.

    It seems as though you may be one of those who wants something to be true rather than the TRUTH.

    • Posted By: ep122 @ 04/20/2009 3:47:22 PM

      Mark 16:17-18

      17 Furthermore, these signs will accompany those believing: By the use of my name they will expel demons, they will speak with tongues, 18 and with their hands they will pick up serpents, and if they drink anything deadly it will not hurt them at all. They will lay their hands upon sick persons, and these will become well.???

      This verse is widely accepted as not written by Mark (or whoever wrote Mark) and shows that the Bible has been tampered with.

    • Posted By: sms29s66 @ 04/17/2009 4:13:05 PM

      The Dead Sea Scrolls do not have any New Testament fragments. The gospels were witten many years after the events described by persons who were certainly not eyewitnesses, so no matter how many copies there are, etc, none were written by the disciples themselves. And I seem to remember that the first disciple to see the "resurrected" Jesus did not recognize him. Paul had his own agenda and he sculpted Christianlity to suit himself. Secular historians most certainly do NOT make any reference to the resurrection, the virgin birth, the miracles, or any other such thing. I am perfectly willing to stipulate that Jesus existed. Nothing more than that. And the Church fathers you speak of most certainly had their own agendas. I notice you don't mention Arius. He was very well respected and had a huge following until the "orthodox" crowd got together and voted on the divinity of Jesus. Can you imagine! It was decided by VOTE. Don't make me laugh accusing atheists of claims and rumors.

  • Posted By: Janann @ 04/20/2009 8:25:40 AM

    As a lifelong, rather devout and comfortable Catholic, I believe the greatest threat to Religion is the use of Faith for Political Purposes. The last ten years have been hard on all faiths because many politically driven people of faith have identified those with opposing vieiws as "Godless and Secular". Morning Joe has perfected that style to a Science.

  • Posted By: Logicitout @ 04/19/2009 1:02:20 PM

    Just point out the sources you used to determine that the Bible has been manipulated and tampered with ?
    You also claim our manuscripts are - probably faulty - . Which manuscript evidence have you used to determine this ?
    Ya see, my real point in all of this is to show that some just want something to be true so bad that they just make up stories to make themselves feel right. Is that how you make all your decisions in Life ?

  • Posted By: sms29s66 @ 04/19/2009 10:06:26 AM

    Constitution Lover, we are fools. Only fools allow themselves to argue with the foolish. Circular logic and obstinance is all they are armed with, but no amount of pointing out the obvious will have any affect. It's like the civil rights movement: We must wait for the upcoming generations for real progress. At least the trtuth about atheism is coming out. I suspect that our numbers haven't increased all that much. I suspect that more of us are speaking up. I would LOVE to know how many church-going politicians are really atheist. I would bet that a lot of fundamentalists would faint if the truth were known.

  • Posted By: Logicitout @ 04/18/2009 10:04:57 AM

    Constitution Lover says: It requres that one do their best. That THAT is all that God ever wants.
    Where does GOD say that ?

    And you never gave us your sources for studying Biblical Reliability ? what a surprise !

    I have asked at least 20 to 30 atheists to provide their sources for ridiculous claims made against the Bible and NOT ONE has provided the sources in which they became so informed on Biblical Reliability.

    AGAIN ! some people want something to be true, and some just want the TRUTH !

    • Posted By: Andrew21 @ 04/18/2009 11:13:52 AM


      logicitout--thank you for your ongoing, eloquent defense of the Gospel--perhap seeds will be planted. I was for many years an atheist like many of those posting here. It was only after challenging God to reveal himself to me that He really got my attention. I challenged Him--opened the Bible randomly and read Joshua 3. Then I went to church that Sunday for the 1st time in years--guess what scripture the Pastor preached from. Serendipity / coincidence--perhaps--but in the 19 years I've been a christian, I've never heard that scripture used as a text again. My prayer for the atheists on this site is that God will show them the same mercy he showed me. Keep up the good work. Psalms 2:1-4.

      • Posted By: Logicitout @ 04/18/2009 7:25:12 PM

        Right on Andrew ! Keep fighting the good fight !

    • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 04/18/2009 11:11:13 AM

      "AGAIN ! some people want something to be true,"
      People like you.

      " and some just want the TRUTH !"
      People like me.

      Thank you for supporting that point.

    • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 04/18/2009 11:09:10 AM

      One fof the main sources is the Oral Law which is something that Christains seem to know nothing about. They rely solely on their limited understanding of TaNaKH.

      Having studied this topic for years there are many and varied sources of info, including college level course and general reasearch. To list a few would not suffice. Some of the best sorces were long enough ago that I do not remember which texts and sources dealt with which issues.

  • Posted By: Logicitout @ 04/18/2009 3:46:21 PM

    Again, No Sources !
    Just, ive done it long ago yet i dont remember.

    same ol , same ol from the atheist, ive got all the answers yet i wont tell you my sources.
    Enough said Constitution Lover.

  • Posted By: Julio Guarneri @ 04/18/2009 11:55:51 AM

    This is true. One is a question of the church's cultural and political impact which has varied throughout the ages. The other is a matter of the transcendental, transforming power of the gospel in the lives of individuals, communities and societies. Interestingly, the church of the first century did not have much political influence on the Roman Empire but it powerfully transformed life for multitudes within the empire and it changed the course of history, not to mention the eternal destiny of its adherents.

  • Posted By: Logicitout @ 04/17/2009 11:49:51 PM

    Judaism ( obeying the Law ) never saved any one.
    Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

    Judaism set the stage for Christianity by revealing no one could perfectly observe the entire Law, thus they needed a savior.

    Saying I believe you ( faith in Jesus Christ ) is Not and has never been considered following Laws or doing Good works.

    Read James carefully. Romans and Ephesians teach being justified before GOD by faith alone.
    James teaches being justified before other men by your works ( man can only see your faith through your works )
    True Faith ( which saves you ) will Produce Good Works.

    Because some may have looked to GOD for Weather is a wild guess on how GOD came to be.
    More likely they believed in GOD First, then looked to him to control the weather. In any case your weather theory is a lottery guess.

    • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 04/18/2009 8:03:40 AM

      "Judaism ( obeying the Law ) never saved any one. "

      Neither has Christianity.

      "Judaism set the stage for Christianity by revealing no one could perfectly observe the entire Law, thus they needed a savior"

      Now this part is based on Jewish law/belief so it is only a comment, since there is no god to have to believe in in the first place. Judaism, (if properly understood which you obviously do not) does not require perfection. It requres that one do their best. That THAT is all that God ever wants. That trying to be perfect is for fools. And that expecting someone else to do your work for you (a saviour) is also for apostates and fools. Judaism only expects one to believe in one God. It has always had the rule that if following any other rule puts your life or health at risk that you not only can but should break the laws. In fact if antoher's life is at risk you should break the laws to help save taht person. Note that I said believe in ONE God, not a triune god, which is considered at false god and idolatry. THAT is why throughout history, many Jews have wilingly died rather than violates God's law and become Christians.

      • Posted By: sms29s66 @ 04/18/2009 9:37:24 AM

        Thank you, Constituion lover.

  • Posted By: sms29s66 @ 04/18/2009 9:36:03 AM

    You seem to believe that you can convince me with the Bible. It can't be done. I DON:T ACCEPT THE BIBLE AS TRUTH. The only reason I refer back to it with you is that YOU DO. Obviously you have a stake in the game and so all contradictions must be resolved no matter how many hoops must be jumped. One of my favorites is the explanation of why we don't see miracles performed by mortals any longer (unless of course you are Catholic).

  • Posted By: Logicitout @ 04/17/2009 8:34:29 PM

    OK, thats better sms, you dont want it to be true and you have done zero research on the reliability of the Bible.

    Now Constitution Lover, we know sms has done zero research on Manuscripts, Archaeology, Prophecy and Statistical Evidence. what are your sources of research on the subject of Biblical reliability ?

    • Posted By: Constitution Lover @ 04/18/2009 7:54:19 AM

      I have spent years of research in a variety of places (much of it long before the internet was ubiquitous) and as well as having taken several religion courses in university.

      There has never been any proof of the theological parts of the bible. The general historical parts, yes, but the supernatural stuff no.

  • Posted By: Logicitout @ 04/18/2009 12:20:04 AM

    Notice the I, YOU, and ME in James.
    Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
    Abram was considered righteous well before he offered his son Isaac on the altar ( Genesis 22 ) As mentioned in James
    The True Faith was revealed by Good Works.

  • Posted By: sms29s66 @ 04/17/2009 10:50:30 PM

    I knew you were going to pull that one. Remember James: Be ye doers of the word...Are you suggesting that Judaism is man-made? And even asking for belief is demanding that you DO something. Christianity based on fatih alone is certainly man-made--by that apPauling Paul. But all religions share that. I suspect that men invented god around the same time that they started growing crops. God was an attempt to control the weather.

  • Posted By: Logicitout @ 04/17/2009 10:33:28 PM

    Man made religions are easy to recognize.
    ALL, and i mean ALL religions who believe in a God preach what you need to do ( works or follow the Law ) to enter into the kingdom of GOD.

    EXCEPT ONE ! Yes, Only ONE Claims that GOD has done everything and all he asks is for you to Believe him.

    Quite a coincidence dont you think sms ?

  • Posted By: sms29s66 @ 04/17/2009 8:56:55 PM

    actually you are wrong. But what is the point of doing research on the reliability of a text that has no credibility?

    • Posted By: Logicitout @ 04/17/2009 9:19:29 PM

      Ah, to find out if it is credible.

      • Posted By: sms29s66 @ 04/17/2009 9:58:37 PM

        I think you misunderstand me. Study of the Bible is a worthy pursuit. I took a few classes in college. Study of the sources would be fascinating, but the originals are not available so the best that can be done is to study the oldest copies which can only be as accurate as what they were copied from which may not have been the original and is thus possibly/probably faulty. But in the end what you are studying is myth. It isn't credible. That isn't why you are studying it. I am not naturally contemptuous of Christians or people with faith. I am contemptuous of those who smugly assume that their belief makes it so. Even Billy Graham has come to believe that Christianity may not be the only path to eternity. My alienation from Christianity was a slow process that began when I was a teenager and began to see that it was a bargaining game: You will let me into heaven if I do thus and such. That struck me as being a very poor reason to believe in anything--the fear of damnation. That isn't faith. It's cowardice. If I were to espouse any religious belief at all, it would have to be Judaism prior to the doctrine of an afterlife. To walk in the way of righteousness for its own sake with no expectations of eternal life appeals to me.

  • Posted By: sms29s66 @ 04/17/2009 9:07:28 PM

    For your information, Logicitout, I keep a bible on my desk at work. I happen to love the literature of the bible. I also love the liturgy of the Catholic Church. My daughter was educated in a Catholic school at my expense. I think there is a great deal of power in our common mythology. I just don't believe the supernatural is truth.

  • Posted By: Logicitout @ 04/17/2009 8:00:58 PM

    You can see the Byzantine manuscripts and Textus Receptus manuscripts in which we get our Bible from any time you wish. Now please refer us to your source that shows the manipulation and tampering you spoke of, Ya know the evidence that is no where to be found on any atheist web site.

    Now do you understand the atheist CLAIMS and RUMORS I mentioned ? Are you still laughing ?
    OR are you frantically searching the Internet ?

    We are waiting for your sources and my prediction is we wont hear any more from you.

    • Posted By: sms29s66 @ 04/17/2009 8:07:02 PM

      Unless you can produce the original you have no way of knowing what it said.

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