JUSTICE

The Long Arm of the Law

A looming battle over the role foreign judges should play in U.S. courts.

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  • Posted By: jordan c. fan @ 05/10/2009 12:07:25 AM

    By: Jordan C. Fan, Prophet of Environment.

    The judicial system in the United States is failing. It is in desperate need for a overhaul. Objective opinions and advice from foreign jurdicial experts necessary for improvement of domestic legal systems.

    • Posted By: waynecollier @ 05/10/2009 1:06:44 PM

      Why is it failing? If it is, perhaps citizens of the United States may have some useful suggestions. If the legislative branches of government wish and the proposed changes do not violate state or federal constitutions (as the case may be), then they may act. No one, however, has or should have the right to apply foreign law, across the board or selectively.

      While you did not share any suggestions, one can understand the judicial system better if one were compare it to the evolution of safety features in cars. Some elements of law and procedure were obvious and were implemented in the Constitution and first set of statutes. Other came in the form of amendments needed to fine tune the law, while other changes were mandated due to evolving standards in society and business. A complex society needs complex laws and the criminal law is always playing catch-up because we do not convict people for conduct that was not prohibited by law when it occurred. The fairness of America's legal system is an important reason why it has succeeded in every area of international endeavor.

      If people were more ethical, mecrcful and took fewer risks, the legal system would not be under such duress and fewer laws would be needed. It is all to easy to suggest that one person or system is the problem, when there are other, mightier causative agents - people.

      Most people seek peace, or the domestic tranquility, and knowing what the law is in advance allows people to govern their conduct within a framework that also permits them to predict what others with whom they are dealing will do. All legal rpohobitions aside, allowing any judge to apply whatever law or authority they wish will surely replace the law and make judges dictators who are free to do as they please.

      I prefer to live in a nation of laws, not men, while the path that you advocate leads to the opposite result. You might want to check out the article and chart which is found at this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law.

  • Posted By: waynecollier @ 05/09/2009 1:42:55 PM

    There is a disturbing undercurrent in many of these posts to the effect that because a politician from another party allegedly broke a law while in office, that their successor from another party is entitled to do the same. This is not the law anywhere, because it is premised upon the assumption that the law does not apply to prevent those in power from doing what they want, as is the case along the Somali coast.

    The People of the United States established the Constitution, U.S. Const., Preamble, intending that the "government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." Gettysburg Address. If you are a Democrat or Republican, fine, that is your right. Just remember that the Constitution is for every citizen and protects one person's Constitutional rights from being infringed by everyone else. The Constitution is a wonder, not just because it defines what is "right" so brilliantly, but because it also requires that the laws must be fairly enacted, enforced and protected (Due Process, Equal Protection).

    I hope that Citizens continue to have the courage to defend the essence of what America is against the unrelenting assaults of the ends-justifies-the-means anarchists.

  • Posted By: waynecollier @ 05/09/2009 12:36:51 PM

    Neither the President nor Congress can enter into any treaty that conflicts with the United States Constitution. The Cherokee Tobacco, 78 U.S. 616, 20 L. Ed. 227 (1870); Seery v. U. S., 130 Ct. Cl. 481, 127 F. Supp. 601 (1955). The United States Supreme Court, as with any branch of government, derives its authority from the Constitution and may not change it. Citizens are the only group that can change it, through the process specified in the Constitution. It is frightening to think that so many are unaware of this or are all too willing to advocate circumventing the law when it pleases them.

  • Posted By: CutToTheChase @ 04/25/2009 10:34:44 AM

    There may be some real political philosophy at stake here. But I don't think that's what everyone's so worked up about. Think about it -- the shades of grey between these different ways of working in the international community are pretty minor compared to the difference between seriously engaging and not engaging with international partners.

    And that's what the opposition to Koh is really about. President Obama and Hilary Clinton have re-engaged the U.S. in international diplomacy, and there are people who don't want them to succeed (and get re-elected). They figure if they can keep Obama from putting his team together, he'll be a less successful president and maybe beatable in 2012.

    Not very patriotic. But somehow, that's politics in the U.S. these days.

    • Posted By: bighead1191 @ 05/07/2009 6:04:46 PM

      "In his writings, Koh has campaigned to expand some rights guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution???and perhaps shrink some others, including the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech???to better conform to the laws of other nations"

      I'm referencing that statment as I believe that is what is most likely throwing up red flags in the artical. Atleast, the biggest red flag for me. Americans freedom of speech is unique to us, as it is unmatched in other countries. We do not need to "better conform to the laws of other nations." When it comes to the First Amendment, others should be thinking about conforming to ours.

    • Posted By: javadave61 @ 04/30/2009 10:35:15 AM

      Once again, legitimate concern about the future democracy reduced to the fact that "we just don't like Obama." "Cut to the chase" on this, you just don't want to elevate the discussion to what our democracy is all about, and, so you do what far too many liberals are doing these days, you make everything simply petty. Koh's ideas aren't petty, and they might in fact be dangerous. There's plenty of international law out there, and some day it just might catch up with you. Scary for us all.

  • Posted By: 1Blackcitizen! @ 04/27/2009 7:06:24 PM

    Not to worry, we will always be able to visit the constitution in various museums. I don't know how successful the Obama administration, along with the dems, will be in completely destroying the constitution. But it won't be for want of trying. What this administration is moving toward is total government intervention and control of all that matters in the U.S. Of the 69 million who voted for Obama, they are made up of 5 groups. Group 1 is the 35 and younger that grew up without a real father figure in their lives. Their mothers babied them and continue to do so. These are your mama's boys and girls. They are the generation of entitlement. They absolutely revere Obama. Group 2 is the majority of blacks. They voted for him because....because he's black, what else? Group 3 is made up of women who voted for Obama because they think he's hot and daydream of what sex would be like with him. You know, the same way females pick football teams when they enter the office pool. Group 4 is the elitists, who believe it is chic and evolved to vote for an African-American. Group 5 is the independents that bought into Obama's "change" message. The change they were looking for was a cleaning up of Washington's usual politics. A forthright administration that would temper lobbyist control. An ethical administration operating on behalf of the people.............SUCKERS! Nanny staters of the world unite, right after you pick up your laundry from mommy's house and some financial help to pay your cell phone bill, oh, and car note and get some of mommy's home cooking. Then you can unite. The end is not near, it's here.

    • Posted By: NotSoBigMac @ 05/07/2009 12:35:50 PM

      And the groups that are pissed about Obama, at least by reading your comment: 1) Racists, 2)Sexists, 3)Overall Bigots 4)Angry, middle-age-and-over white males.

      Others are waiting for some results before passing judgment.

  • Posted By: NotSoBigMac @ 05/07/2009 12:31:21 PM

    No Bill of Rights in transnational law? Have you ever heard about the Declaration of Human Rights? It may not be as strict as some of the U.S. constitution.

    But sure, let the corporations keep buying the kind of law they want.

  • Posted By: cbshirkey @ 05/01/2009 6:52:17 PM

    decisions made by the united states supreme court should be based upon interpretation of the united states constitution & earlier precedents, not by what some quack imam in saudia arabia thinks.

  • Posted By: SteamLoco @ 04/28/2009 10:41:16 PM

    OOPS! I thought the first message disappeared because I hadn't joined the forum. My bad!

  • Posted By: SteamLoco @ 04/28/2009 10:33:47 PM

    "Transnational" law is a horrible idea. Most countries have nothing even approaching the Bill of Rights that our officials are so eager to feed into the shredder. Such protections would not exist under Koh's ideal of one-world goverbnebt. Consider how easy it is to get in trouble with the law here in the USA; if an official wants to get you then a new charge is fabricated and applied retroactively. In a one-world government there would be no Bill of Rights; even if there were it would be meaningless. We have the right to a jury of our peers but in a one-world government one's "peers" may be in Iran, Bangladesh or another country where Americans are not popular. That same "pool" of worthies would also supply the judge, prosecutor and -- if allowed -- the defense attorney. Can anyone say, "Kangaroo Court?"

  • Posted By: SteamLoco @ 04/28/2009 10:21:50 PM

    Transnational law is a terrible idea. First, consider how easy it is to run afoul of the law; if an offical wants to get you he or she fabricates a new crime and applies it retroactively. Koh's ideas push us toward a one world government where the Bill of Rights becomes irrelevant. We have the right to a jury of our peers but in a transnational one world government one's "peers" could be in Iran, Bangladesh or another country where Americans are not popular. That same pool would supply the prosecutor and -- if allowed -- the defense attorney. Can anyone say, "Kangaroo Court?"

  • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 04/21/2009 3:13:35 PM

    Florida Dave said: "What would you know about the constitution?"

    More than you, Yank, and that's a crying shame.

    • Posted By: John Dough @ 04/21/2009 10:42:37 PM

      Well good now you know why we wrote it to get you off our backs kicked your butt twice and saved it twice too. You're welcome!!!

      • Posted By: Horrible Bastard @ 04/22/2009 1:55:20 PM

        What have you done LATELY, Yank?

        Oh, yes. You've become a nation of torture perverts and criminals.

        • Posted By: 1Blackcitizen! @ 04/27/2009 6:01:00 PM

          Quick question! What do you lime suckers have against dentists?

  • Posted By: harringtonmb @ 04/27/2009 10:33:12 AM

    Is the expression "stupid is what stupid dose" or "stupid dose what stupid is"? I think it work both ways

  • Posted By: democratsare a joke @ 04/27/2009 10:15:55 AM

    Obama eroding our democracy? We'll www.democratsareajoke.com shows how bad of a joke he and the demorats are.

  • Posted By: rramjet @ 04/27/2009 8:38:40 AM

    We slip ever closer to the Abyss, thanks to all toy morons who voted for Change!!

  • Posted By: JJDSTL01 @ 04/27/2009 8:14:06 AM

    The Long Arm of the Law
    A looming battle over the role foreign judges should play in U.S. courts.

    Simple - NONE

  • Posted By: thom77 @ 04/27/2009 7:55:25 AM

    The judicial branch is being used to circumvent representative government on all manner of issues inconvenient to elected liberals. Can't ratify a treaty through our elected representatives in congress? Find a judge who'll write a decision effectively making it law! Can't get elected officials onboard with gay marriage? Sue and let a judge make it a law for you! Can't get elected officials to pass your leftwing social agenda? No worries, a judge somewhere will be happy to! This philosophy takes all accountability out of the equation... our elected officials are tasked with these roles for a reason, and that reason is because if they ultimately do something their constituents don't approve of, they'll be removed, easily, from office. But now they don't have to actually make these decisions... they can just let the unelected judicial do their bidding for them, and let them continue to straddle the fence on the tough issues come election time. It is NOT what our founding fathers intended, and chips away at the very heart of what our representative democracy was intended to look like. Full-on shooting revolutions have been started over far less. And quite frankly, if this continues I don't see any other conclusion.

  • Posted By: olderwiser @ 04/19/2009 3:21:44 PM

    The U.S. Supreme Court has the final say on what is and is not constitutional. They can get their material for studying out an opinion anywhere they wish. Even ancient Greeks and Romans. Confucius. Buddha. Loosen up. This is America. We are made of every type of human being that inhabits this planet and all of them come up with some good ideas.

    • Posted By: byronraum @ 04/27/2009 6:23:34 AM

      Sounds good to me.

    • Posted By: Ctmom4 @ 04/19/2009 10:06:11 PM

      No. They are bound by the Constitution.

  • Posted By: henriklitsne @ 04/23/2009 12:28:06 PM

    One does wonder how water boarding becomes "alleged torture"? If it isn't torture it should be legal within the US, right? In the charter that created the ICC, the US injected a paragraph (maybe several) saying that the ICC only can try war criminals that the member states won't try themselves. So no problem for the US then, right?

  • Posted By: libertyfirst @ 04/22/2009 4:00:30 PM

    And if we think that Koh does NOT have an agenda of abdicating US law for a "world opinion" court of some sort then the authors are bigger fools than their previous work would suggest. Exaggerated? I think not. We've all seen this train coming for a long, long time now and we've already seen concesions made to this dangerous notion of "international" law...a law that at its most basic elements takes away the rights of our country to set its own standards and relies on cultures and belief systems wildly incongruent with our own to have "legitimacy" in our courts. No thanks. If we really want to see civil unrest and greater division in this country, keep pushing this notion.

  • Posted By: John Dough @ 04/21/2009 11:25:28 PM

    Obama is not a closet socialist he came "out of the closet" on Jan 21, 2009.

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