‘We Could Have Done This the Right Way’

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  • Posted By: neocon @ 04/28/2009 1:59:14 PM

    Any human being with a functioning conscience or a decent heart loathes torture. Its exercise has been a blight on humanity. With this in mind, those who oppose what the Bush administration did to some terror suspects may be justified. But in order to ascertain whether they are, they need to respond to some questions:

    1.Given how much you rightly hate torture, why did you oppose the removal of Saddam Hussein, whose prisons engaged in far more hideous tortures, on thousands of times more people, than America did ??? all of whom, moreover, were individuals and families who either did nothing or simply opposed tyranny? One assumes, furthermore, that all those Iraqi innocents Saddam had put into shredding machines or whose tongues were cut out and other hideous tortures would have begged to be waterboarded.

    2.Are all forms of painful pressure equally morally objectionable? In other words, are you willing to acknowledge that there are gradations of torture as, for example, there are gradations of burns, with a third-degree burn considerably more injurious and painful than a first-degree burn? Or is all painful treatment to be considered torture? Just as you, correctly, ask proponents of waterboarding where they draw their line, you, too, must explain where you draw your line.

    3.Is any maltreatment of anyone at any time ??? even a high-level terrorist with knowledge that would likely save innocents' lives ??? wrong? If there is no question about the identity of a terror suspect, and he can provide information on al-Qaida ??? for the sake of clarity, let us imagine that Osama bin Laden himself were captured ??? could America do any form of enhanced interrogation involving pain and/or deprivation to him that you would consider moral and therefore support?

    • Posted By: Osama Bin Login @ 04/28/2009 2:20:28 PM

      "Any human being with a functioning conscience or a decent heart loathes torture. Its exercise has been a blight on humanity. With this in mind, those who oppose what the Bush administration did to some terror suspects may be justified. "

      Translation: We know it's inexcusable, but we did it anyway.

  • Posted By: neocon @ 04/28/2009 1:58:56 PM


    4.If lawyers will be prosecuted for giving legal advice to an administration that you consider immoral and illegal, do you concede that this might inhibit lawyers in the future from giving unpopular but sincerely argued advice to the government in any sensitive area? They will, after all, know that if the next administration disapproves of their work, they will be vilified by the media and prosecuted by the government.

    5.Presumably you would acknowledge that the release of the classified reports on the handling of high-level, post-Sept. 11 terror suspects would inflame passions in many parts of the Muslim world. If innocents were murdered because nonviolent cartoons of Muhammad were published in a Danish newspaper, presumably far more innocents will be tortured and murdered with the release of these reports and photos. Do you accept any moral responsibility for any ensuing violence against American and other civilians?

    6.Many members of the intelligence community now feel betrayed and believe that the intelligence community will be weakened in their ability to fight the most vicious organized groups in the world. As reported in the Washington Post, former intelligence officer (Mark) Lowenthal said that fear has paralyzed agents on the ground. Apparently, many of those in the know are certain that lifesaving information was gleaned from high-level terror suspects who were waterboarded. As Mike Scheuer, former head of the CIA unit in charge of tracking Osama bin Laden, said, "We were very certain that the interrogation procedures procured information that was worth having." If, then, the intelligence community has been adversely affected, do you believe it can still do the work necessary to protect tens, perhaps hundreds, of thousands of people from death and maiming?

    7.Will you seek to prosecute members of Congress such as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., who were made aware of the waterboarding of high-level suspects and voiced no objections?

    8.Would you agree to release the photos of the treatment of Islamic terrorists only if accompanied by photos of what their terror has done to thousands of innocent people around the world? Would you agree to photos ??? or at least photo re-enactments ??? of, let us say, Iraqi children whose faces were torn off with piano wire by Islamists in Iraq? If not, why not? Isn't context of some significance here?

    9.You say that America's treatment of terror suspects will cause terrorists to treat their captives, especially Americans, more cruelly. On what grounds do you assert this? Did America's far more moral treatment of Japanese prisoners than Japan's treatment of American prisoners in World War II have any impact on how the Japanese treated American and other prisoners of war? Do you think that evil people care how morally pure America is?

    If you don't address these questions, it would appear that you care less about morality and torture than about vengeance against the Bush administra

  • Posted By: Mralz @ 04/27/2009 4:43:41 PM

    I enjoy reading the comments because they can be interpreted as an exchanging of ideas. Here is my perspective about torture it should not be a question about the citizenship of suspected terrorists. It should be a question about the limitations of government, what can government do, or in other words is torture constitutional?

    • Posted By: Osama Bin Login @ 04/28/2009 1:15:20 PM

      The answer is "no". Amendment VIII doesn't give you the right to not be tortured. It forbids the government from torturing.

      Seems like a small distinction, but as you can see, it isn't.

  • Posted By: Jt74 @ 04/28/2009 9:20:28 AM

    This fits some obvious understandings of human nature, people respond to reinforcement and social pressure, not as much to punishment. People are social creatures, and the need for social interaction, even with an interrogator can lead to a Stockholm syndrome in which detainees identify with their captors, see how Saddaam even cooperated with one of his interrogators. It is absolutely disgusting how torture was engaged in and what it has cost us as a country. Those who committed such acts should not be allowed to use the Nuremberg defense of "just obeying orders". A crime is a crime is a crime, and no one should be able to avoid prosecution for torture.

  • Posted By: harobamason @ 04/28/2009 5:51:25 AM

    The American people need those in the news media, who have the ability to investigate the facts that government, even a new government, might find uncomfortable to expose, and also to provide the moral framework and outraged tone that a story like this one deserves. It???s a disservice to the American public to pit left side against right or vice-versa on this ???enhanced interrogation program??? when torture is illegal. For the last eight years journalism has been an instrument of government propaganda and today still act as if there is still a presidential campaign. We have a president and his name is Barack Obama. I don't know any journalist who thinks there are two sides to freedom of the press, so why should freedom from torture be any different? You guys need to be courageous in the face of political push back and do your jobs. Get onto some proper investigative journalism. This truly Pulitzer Prize winning stuff to anyone that cracks this story.

  • Posted By: harobamason @ 04/28/2009 5:51:00 AM

    The American people need those in the news media, who have the ability to investigate the facts that government, even a new government, might find uncomfortable to expose, and also to provide the moral framework and outraged tone that a story like this one deserves. It???s a disservice to the American public to pit left side against right or vice-versa on this ???enhanced interrogation program??? when torture is illegal. For the last eight years journalism has been an instrument of government propaganda and today still act as if there is still a presidential campaign. We have a president and his name is Barack Obama. I don't know any journalist who thinks there are two sides to freedom of the press, so why should freedom from torture be any different? You guys need to be courageous in the face of political push back and do your jobs. Get onto some proper investigative journalism. This truly Pulitzer Prize winning stuff to anyone that cracks this story.

  • Posted By: MrEnygma @ 04/27/2009 5:23:32 PM

    So tell me, exactly how do you make sure it never happens again if you let the perpetrators get away with the crimes in the first place? If all they get is a lecture, what's to stop another president down the road from doing what he sees fit when it comes to "national security"? What you're saying, mjkoch, is that the only thing that matters is the safety of the people; nothing else, including the security of our own person, matters. That's not a democracy, that's a fascist state. I hope you realize that. Our former president was sworn in to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution; when that is not done, he needs to be prosecuted for that, especially when he goes far beyond that and violates the Geneva Conventions, which we not only signed onto, but we had a part in creating.

  • Posted By: jbz7879 @ 04/27/2009 10:50:38 AM

    so he works as a consultant in mid east now -who recommended him for that job and who put him in touch with newsweek and nyt -there is a lot more here than they are revealing -lofty words and low ideals

    • Posted By: thinkTwice @ 04/27/2009 2:50:26 PM

      dont look under your bed ... there is a monster

  • Posted By: J.D. @ 04/27/2009 12:59:44 PM

    THE OLE GOOD AGENT AND BAD AGENT WORKS EVERY TIME EXCELLENT JOB........

    • Posted By: truthfan @ 04/27/2009 1:45:08 PM

      Soudan wasn???t playing that game.

      In good agent/bad agent, the ???good??? one comes in AFTER the bad one has started on the prisoner, consoles him, gains his trust, and offers to protect him from the bad agent if only he will give up information.

      In this case, the good agent (Soudan) had already gained trust and information. When the bad agent showed up, he had Soudan sent away permanently.

    • Posted By: truthfan @ 04/27/2009 1:40:43 PM

      It wasn't that. Good agent/bad agent works by repeatedly swapping them around. You get the "good" one to console the prisoner after the bad one has had a go at him, thus gaining his trust and getting information. The "good" one then promises to protect the prisoner from the bad one on condition that he give information. This didn't happen.

      In this case, the good agent had already gained the trust and information, then the bad one came along and sent him away permanently.

      Soudan wasn't playing a game.

  • Posted By: jetphixer1 @ 04/26/2009 5:05:50 PM

    I am 70yrs. Retired US Naval Aviation: I have been water-boarded, It is torture i assure you!!.I am a disabled vet also, I want to say : The America i flew for from the USS Hornet for did not torture. We convicted our own troops for water boarding; we hung Japanese troops for water boarding.we conducted the Nuremberg trials for torture. Now we are with them this is not the America i i risked my butt for These folks need prosecuting. That piece of garbage sitting on the Federal bench in San Fran,needs impeachment for starters. Than Rummie an Cheney need A room At Leavenworth: at the very least the other attorneys need removal from the Legal bar They all need Gonzo to serve tea to them at Leavenworth . Please Mr Obama Let the trials begin. That is the America i spent 20 yrs defending I I feel sold out with Bybee making judgments. Please start by Impeaching and cleaning these pieces of trash out of our system Our country needs to be healed before moving on. I feel that moving on before that is done is the same as putting nice clean fresh jeans over a pair of dung filled undies. Thank you for reading this.Bil

    • Posted By: Apolitical @ 04/27/2009 1:19:19 PM

      Chiguy - You are your kind of neo-con Republicans who concentrate on arithmetic instead of tackling the moral issue of torture, the American noble history of fighting moral wars and honoring valiant soldiers (whom you kind will accuse of treason should they not toe the party line). Shame on you.

    • Posted By: essbird @ 04/26/2009 5:10:35 PM

      Thank you, and thank you.

      • Posted By: mac101 @ 04/26/2009 6:35:15 PM

        Amen.

        • Posted By: chiguy75 @ 04/27/2009 12:31:12 AM

          Bill, I agree with your sentiment but I have a feeling you made up your entire history. 70 is too young for WWII (where the Japanese did conduct water boarding) and the Hornet was decommissioned before the Korean war and re-commissioned afterwards.

          It's fine to post your opinions but don't dishonor real vets by lying, it's disgraceful

          • Posted By: RO in Reno @ 04/27/2009 10:46:30 AM

            What is disgraceful is a punk a$$ kid like you chiguy, who doesn't even know a real veteran making a comment like that.

          • Posted By: weilim @ 04/27/2009 2:44:44 AM

            Chiguy 75,

            He never said he served in WW2. He said he served on the Hornet. There are two Hornets, one of them was sank in WW2, the other, its replacement, survived WW2 and also served in Vietnam. He would in his late twenties to early thirties if he fought in Vietnam.

            I suggest you read carefully before accusing people of lying. He never said he served in WW2, he only said he survived on the Hornet.

  • Posted By: collegevoter @ 04/27/2009 1:00:36 PM

    Seems like a much more intelligent approach, with better results. Of course even at the time, most people who know anything about torture were trying to tell the then Administration that it wouldn't work. They didn't listen to all of our shame and regret.

  • Posted By: Yankeluh @ 04/27/2009 10:07:54 AM

    I love the phrase "CIA contractor" Since when to we hire out our intelligence gathering. I can't help but think that some guy showed up at CIA headquarters with a half load of ashphalt and said, "I just finished a job around the corner and had some asphalt left. Normally I would do your driveway for $2,000.00 but I can come back tomorrow and do it for $1,000.00. Oh and you have to pay me now." The CIA then said, "No you come back tomorrow and we wil pay you $10,000.00 to ask a guy some questions." Yeah, contractors!

  • Posted By: Andree @ 04/27/2009 8:02:55 AM

    The biggest question is...
    If it isn't torture, why did Lynndie England go to jail as well as several other military personnel for their "torture and abuse" of Iraqi detainees in 2005 at Abu Ghraib? Why have we not heard this from the media?

    • Posted By: greystoke @ 04/27/2009 9:39:31 AM

      Maybe you should watch MSNBC. They covered it several days ago.

  • Posted By: sgeear @ 04/26/2009 5:16:56 PM

    "The revelation of more details could be cathartic. But the process could also become a political circus." This is not about catharsis, it is about the rule of law. It is up to the courts to see that this is not a political circus. What was done was a crime. Prosecuting crime is by definition looking backward. to adjudicate if a crime WAS committed.

    • Posted By: Scuba Steve @ 04/27/2009 8:25:19 AM

      Hear, hear!!! Well said and true!

  • Posted By: jbz7879 @ 04/27/2009 6:28:21 AM

    is there anything new about these methods -CIA was training the latin americans to torture decades ago -remember che guevera and the dictators in chile and argentina -all blessed by torture thanks to american assertion -i really have no idea what all this political rhetoric is about as what mc carthy did was even worst then torture and that was done in full view of people destroying the lives of thousands of americans themselves -
    USA as such has an image of a autocratic bully who does as they please or in plain language judge all with the simple motive -MIGHT IS RIGHT -and i do not understand how and where this whole debate is evolving to as its not likely to affect anything which has been done

  • Posted By: Anonms @ 04/27/2009 6:01:12 AM

    Enhance interrogation techniques have been shown to be ineffective time and time again. The Israelis used these techniques for a time and found the information gained was ineffective because people lied to get the torture to stop. If someone has training it is very easy for them to give the interrogators what they want to hear and send them on wild goose chases.

    The United States has an image to uphold which has been sullied because of these actions. The amount of political good will which has been expended on torture is incredible. This country has lowered itself to the level of those we are supposed to be standing against. Regardless of what a person does they are still a person and deserve basic rights. When you begin denying these rights you begin opening doors which should not be approached.

    For programs like this to be effective, a country must institutionalized torture. Once that happens, even with legal "controls," the situation gets out of hand very quickly. Once a government has the ability to torture they can quickly use it to keep their citizens down. By simply redefining "terrorism" to be able to include a citizen of this country and then loosening the definition of terrorist activity to include disseminating information that is against the government, political dissent has been destroyed and the United States officially becomes a fascist state.

  • Posted By: Jerry_Fresno @ 04/26/2009 11:01:10 PM

    Mc Cain said he would use torture in very special cases during an interview on FaceThe Nation.

  • Posted By: Jerry_Fresno @ 04/26/2009 11:00:08 PM

    Sen McCain said he would use torture in very special cases during an interview on Face the Nation.

  • Posted By: mkcsufi @ 04/26/2009 3:49:30 PM

    Contrary to the below, John O'Neill died on 911. Not sure how he could have investigated anything in 2002

    "If a truth commission is formed, Soufan will almost certainly be a key witness. The son of a Beirut journalist, Soufan grew up in Lebanon and later moved with his parents to the Philadelphia suburbs. As a young street agent in New York, he become a protégé of John O'Neill, the flamboyant and controversial FBI counterterrorism agent who became well known for his warnings (mostly ignored) about the threat posed by Osama bin Laden.

    Working with O'Neill, Soufan was a key investigator of the bombing of the USS Cole in the Gulf of Aden in October 2002."

    • Posted By: MontereyDean @ 04/26/2009 4:22:53 PM

      Probably a typo. The investigation referred to took place in October 2000.

      • Posted By: jarcher1 @ 04/26/2009 8:38:16 PM

        The Cole was attacked on 12 October 2000, the investigation wasn't even well underway.

        By 21 December the CIA had made a "preliminary judgment" that "al Qaeda appeared to have supported the attack," with no "definitive conclusion."

        Then-National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice told the Commission that when the administration took office on 20 January 2001, "We knew that there was speculation that the 2000 Cole attack was al Qaeda... We received, I think, on 25 January the same assessment [of al-Qaeda responsibility]. It was preliminary. It was not clear."
        Newsweek reported that on the following day, "six days after Bush took office," the FBI "believed they had clear evidence tying the bombers to Al Qaeda.

        This included the "preliminary judgment" that al Qaeda was responsible, with the caveat that no evidence had yet been found that Bin Ladin himself ordered the attack... in March 2001, the CIA's briefing slides for Rice were still describing the CIA's "preliminary judgment" that a "strong circumstantial case" could be made against al Qaeda but noting that the CIA continued to lack "conclusive information on external command and control" of the attack.

        So October 2002 has to be a typo, but it seems the investigation was going on into at least 2001. All the quotes are from the 9/11 commission report BTW.

  • Posted By: toosinbeymen @ 04/26/2009 8:05:14 PM

    Republicans = the torture party

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