Have We Softened Up On Torture?

No reasonable person looking to defend this country in an emergency would consider what the CIA did as out of line. I am tired of appeasing everyone in the world but our own people...I am sick of the liberals who are willing to give away generations of achievements of American Citizens to perverts, and folks who walk across the border. I am sick of the G20 meetings and their resolves, THe G8 meetings, the NATO meetings, the IMF,meetings and the agreements that come out of them..THe NAFTA Shafta ....Koyota Accords and all the rest...I firmly believe that most of these agreements have been detremental to the US citizen ...The American CITIZENS are NOT being looked after by their elected officials or protected by them...Democrat or Republican.....Not only are their interests not being looked after we are being diminished in everyway to promote some GLobal World Design ala the views of every freaking liberal around......

you bet, if it save amercia live's , this don't come close to what was done in nam, or north vitnam, or in the keroan war to or troop's , guess what happen's to our troops in iraq. what was stoped in amercia (no more attack's) what is saving thousand of live's worth not one terrorist live. and so judge the results. a little less pity on our emeny from you bleeding heart librel's would be fine.

We are neglecting what torture does to the executioner.
Killing somebody would make me a murderer even if the police never finds me. Stealing would make me a thief even if nobody notices that something is missing. What we do to others, we also do to ourselves. There is no need to wait for heavens and hell. That seems to be a law of nature as compelling as gravity. Trying to elude its consequences by rationalizing may be wishful thinking.

Violence, and by extension, War, is ugly, smelly, dirty, sticky business. It's confusing (many deaths are from friendly fire- far more than people think), it???s scary, and there ARE emotions involved. You've seen cops, frustrated to hell after a 90 minute adrenaline fueled car chase, instinctively let loose and give the subject a few whacks or kicks. Imagine the stress, fear, and frustration of being shot at for extended periods, or taking mortar fire- having it getting closer and closer. Or driving supplies every day, wondering if today is the day your truck gets hit with a similar IED that you saw kills your best friend. That all far more frustrating than a highway police chase.
It's imperative in war to gain a psychological advantage. One does this by making the enemy fear them. All throughout history this is a fact. Warpaint. Frightening helmets/masks. Desecrating the bodies of the enemy. Putting your biggest guys on the frontline so your enemy see's an army of titans. Heads on pikes. Spreading stories that your team cannibalizes the enemy, or has "magical" powers. The use of monstrous exotic creatures as weapons (Elephants-Hannibal) The use of snipers to drop important figures on the battlefield. The execution of all the male children in a village (something similar happens in the animal kingdom- even chimps use similar tactics). The techniques for frightening your enemy are as varied as all the armies in the world, and all the thousands of years that theyve fought each other. What doesn't work to frighten your enemy is "wearing a white hat" and showing weakness. Every person fighting in a war believes that they are on the side of righteousness and that their gods, or spirits, are on their sides. There arent white hats, and black hats, with the black hats fighting for the purpose of evil.
I suggest that those who are so quick and comfortable to criticize the actions of professionals, to join the armed forces and fight the war the way YOU think it should be fought. Stop typing bile about, and towards those who are doing what need to be done- and get out there in the field. If you know better, if you're so sure of your point of view from the comfort of your LaZy-Boy - get out there in the sandpit; put those high moral convictions to the test. It's so easy to criticize in air conditioned comfort, in front of your hi-speed computer, with some inane sports game on in the background. No hard decisions to make there, other than sausage or pepperoni, thin or pan crust. Either continue to lounge in relative luxury while you have to keep putting new notches in your belt as your gut gets bigger, and leave war to those with the courage and conviction to be out in the heat, thirsty, hungry, being bitten all over by sand fleas- or get off your lazy self-righteous, obviously ignorant (about torture, PsyOps, etc) a$$es and go out and do things the way YOU think they should be done.

It's interesting that something that so many deem "ineffective", has stood the test of time. From the beginnings of writing history we have been torturing each other. Because it doesn't work? Of course not. That would be like saying "knives are ineffective at killing people", the proof to the contrary is that they are still being used after 10000+ years, since the first guy took a chip of obsidian and gutted his neighbor.
What people don't seem to understand is that "torture" is not a single event. Of course someone will tell you anything you want to hear after you dump enough electricity into his nipples, It???s true, seldom is good intel extracted after a single session of inflicting pain/fear/discomfort-unless theres a single specific fact that your subject knows for sure, and you know he knows for sure- such as "where is the weapons/explosive cache". Thats a no brainer to use the "stick"- but thats seldom what "torture" is, or how "torture" works. "Torture" is theater. "Torture" is a well planned (time-tested, and constantly refined) play, where there are bad guys causing you discomfort or pain, other bad guys saying mean things, then theres that good guy or two. Perhaps a soldier with shared heritage or religion with the "subject". Where small kindnesses are shown. A blanket "snuck" in. Perhaps some food. Some morphine, or even a couple aspirin after a particularly painful session. Or instead of the "good cop" routine, theres the "good friend" routine. A cellmate or "prisoner" in an adjoining cell. Someone to bond with over shared "torture" experiences- happening at different times of course so that they can provide care for each other when one is in a weakened state, and the other in a strong state. It's in situations like these that the bulk of useful information is gained. Unfortunately there must be perceived danger, or pain (physical or psychological), or threat of permanent harm for most of these theatrics to play out with useful results.
Interrogators are skilled, educated people. Their job is to extract information, and they do so effectively with the tools they have at hand. Sometimes new tools are found that are more effective. Sometimes some tools show to be ineffective ("truth serums"-, or LSD), and are then discarded. I wouldnt expect a soldier or interrogator to be able to properly and effectively make judgments about the efficiency and efficacy of the jobs and the people performing them that are posting in this thread. Why do people posting assume they can accurately judge these peoples jobs?

HOW we treat our citizens has nothing to do with how we "treated" enemy combatant terrorists. They are not protected under the Geneva Convention or our Constitution. None of them sustained any permanent damage.
You were kept safe over the last 8 years - you owe a debt of gratitude for that. I regret to say that our future safety is in serious question now that traitor BabykillerObama has emboldened our enemies by release these classified docs and tactics. What are we going to do when we capture the next terrorist - shoot him with spit balls and say "pretty please" until he talks?

Reading Ms. Lithwick's columns makes me happy because they reflect that Newsweek's "afflicting the comfortable" editorial policy has brought it to the same tenuous hold on life as is enjoyed by the New York Times and other supporters of western European-style democratic socialism. The comfortable are weary of being afflicted and the afflicted don't buy magazines or support thier advertisers. Fortunately for the afflicters, the Democrat's New WPA programs will likely provide employment opportunities for his mouthpieces like Ms. Lithwick.

Our main concern may be what torture does to the executioner.
Killing would make me a murderer even if the police never finds me. Stealing would make me a thief even if nobody notices that something is missing. What we do to others, we also do to ourselves. There is no need to wait for heavens and hell. That seems to be a law of nature as compelling as gravity.
Trying to elude the consequences by rationalizing may be nothing more than wishful thinking.

there is no way anyone will see one minute in a court room or see a day in jail it takes the entire government to wage a war the democrats have dirty hands and they are backing off there will be a senate hearing and lots of media photo opps and then they will let it go

Torture gets results. War is an ugly thing and it is easy to point fingers when we are sitting safely in our homes. Americans in general do not even remotely understand just how many people wish that we were all dead and are trying to achieve that end. Right now the bleeding hearts are tying the hands of our fighting forces and it is allowing this battle to drag out (almost indefinitely) and strengthen the enemy. If torturing someone would have stopped 911 would it have been justified??? In my view it would have without a doubt. With Pakistan now in turmoil (and remember they have nuclear weapons) it is a very real possibility of those falling into the wrong hands. And if you think that is beyond the realm of possibility, many people thought that it was insane to believe that anyone would fly planes into the twin towers. The sad thing is that Americans have a short memory and it might take a nuclear blast in an Urban center to finally get America to wake up.

The CIA never tortured anyone. A little discomfort does not equal torture. Here's a question for you: Would you use harsh interrogation tactics on the suspect who kidnapped your son or daughter? Or would you just let your son or daughter die because you didn't want the suspect to be discomforted?

If we allow our country to perform acts such as waterboarding, sleep deprivation, hanging from handcuffs, etc, how long will it be before we do this to ourelves? Do we start by punishing prisoners who misbehave, by our police questioning suspects, treating our children like this? The Bushes and conservative talkers say it is not torture and if it is not, then we can treat ourselves this way. If it is not torture is it cruel and unusual punishment? If it is not then we can treat ourselves this way.

If we as Americans let ourselves be led by the Bushes and conservative talkers then we will start practicing these acts upon ourselves. We must not let this happen. We need to look into the mirror and say that is how or not how we treat people. If we allow our country to treat people that we then we will be treated that way when it is convenient for our country to treat us that way.

The CIA never tortured anyone. A little discomfort does not equal torture. Here's a question for you: Would you use harsh interrogation tactics on the suspect who kidnapped your son or daughter? Or would you just let your son or daughter die because you didn't want the suspect to be discomforted?

in veit Nam they would put 4 suspected guerrillas in a helicopter go 400 or 500 feet they would ask one question and it did not matter what the first one said. they would toss him out the rest would open up and tell everything they knew its war its not supposed to be nice

I am convinced that far too many Americans have become soft on the rule of law, period. While this is not a new phenomenon, I believe the last eight years inured the public to the illegal actions of ite elected leaders. It began with an illegal election and followed by Illegal wars, wars, illegal wiretapping, illegal interrogations, illegal renditions, illegal detentions, and so much more. All of these are crimes, and have barely raised an eyebrow among the majority of Americans. Far worse, not a single criminal of the Bush administration has been held accountable for a single criminal action. Largely responsible for this o0ngoing tragedy are the mainstream media - the master manipulators of public.opinion. In this case, the media are promoting the ridiculous debate about the efficacy, not the illegality of torture. They are doing their job very well.

"The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called 'universal jurisdiction.' Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution."--Ronald Reagan's U.N. Convention Against Torture signing statement.
???To set up the torture program, the DOD & CIA reverse engineered something called SERE training... Based on Cold War communist techniques used to force false confessions, in SERE school elite U.S. troops undergo stress positions, isolation, hooding, slapping, sleep deprivation &, until recently, waterboarding to simulate illegal tactics they might face if captured by an enemy who violated the Geneva Conventions.???4/22/9 Mark Benjamin article, Salon.
???The reality is that the Bush torture methods were both horrifying & ineffective. The procedures we've read about in OLC memos were clearly forms of torture as have been previously defined by America's own standards... And in fact, as McClatchy reported on Tuesday, the Bush administration used these torture techniques to gather intentionally false information about a link between Iraq & al-Qaeda. --Bob Cesca, Author, from a blog dated 4/22/09
???The inability of so many people???to view the need for prosecutions independent of political considerations is a potent sign of how sick our political culture has become. The need for criminal investigations is motivated by one simple, consummately apolitical fact: serious and brutal crimes were committed at the highest levels of the government, ones that left a trail of many victims. A country that purports to live under the rule of law has no choice but to treat its most powerful members who commit serious crimes exactly the same as ordinary citizens who do so.???-- Glenn Greenwald, Salon
???The many roads of inquiry into the Bush administration's abusive "interrogation techniques" all lead to one stubborn, inconvenient fact: Torture is not just immoral but also illegal. This means that once we learn the whole truth, the law will oblige us to act on it???The rule of law is one of this nation's founding principles. It's not optional. Our laws against torture demand to be obeyed -- and demand to be enforced???. -- Eugene Robinson, Pulitzer Prize winner
???Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.??? --- Ben Franklin

So for the sake of the fearful we should forsake our moral values? How convenient . . .