A Catholic-School Veteran Tells All

As a retired teacher from the public school system (and a Protestant to boot!), I have to admit that I 'whacked some kids on the hands with a rulter." We were taught in our state university that it was approved discipline to ask a child to put out their hands and receive a rap. The nuns get the balme----they are easy targets of stereotype, but the public school teachers, the parents who said "I'll give it to you again" in support of teachers and even adults in the general had a different, not good, approach to disciplining children then. let the nuns off the hook, put it in the context of the time, and thank God we've changed.

I served eight years at St. Albert the Great in a suburb of Chicago.

In third grade I experienced a focal seizure (at the time, an undiagnosed seizure disorder) I could not respond to the nun who had asked me a question. My next recollection was the nun grabbing me by my very short hair with two hands and violently shaking my head from side to side. Strange the humilation I endured afterwards was actually worse than the physical abuse.

In 1968 while in fifth grade, a young man who was happy but energenic or as they used to say "had ants in his pants" pushed the old nun to her shallow limits. The nun called this young boy's (who name is seared into my memory) mother and arranged for her to disipline her son in front of the entire class. I would speculate the nun had some input with this boy's mother, just how a "good Catholic" would handle the situation. In front of the entire class, she bent her son over a desk and with a leather strap she harshly, violently whipped this child. When finished the mother was exhausted, the nun stood smuggly satisfied and the boy turned such a deep red he was almost purple, but he did not cry, not one tear. Yes, the boy survived, but he lost his childhood that day, I spent another eight years with him as a classmate for the remainder of elementary school and four years in a public high school, he was never again a happy go lucky young man, it had been beaten out of him. I hope he knows he was not the only one abused that day. The experience left a mark on every child who bore witness.

While in eighth grade in 1972, we had a nun who took road trips and favors from the parents of students who suddenly became the best students, a miracle, under her tutorage, a lifelong average student would become a straight A student. Her pet students would actually receive test answers on such tests as the US Contitution test required at the time before entering high school.

I learned a lot in this Catholic school, very little had anything to do with Jesus Christ.

When I was growing up in the Philippines, in my Dad's town, we were Strict Catholics (or Closed Catholics). I started my Grade school "under the stick" of the Sisters of the Religious of the Virgin Mary (OVM). It was really hard for me then since I was a hyper little kid. These nuns will whack your open palms, your thighs (I was wearing short pants then), pinch your ears, pinch the inside of your thighs, and specially for me: I was forced to knell on the ground, In front of the school yard, on gravel, with arms spread out ( like the savior himself), for two hours! I don't even remember now what that was for. And there was no upside to it either, like Mr. Noonan says. Remember how slapstick used to be funny? Whoever gets it-is funny! I also recall my parents being embarrassed too in the Principal's office. I left that school in the middle of third grade with C+' and C's to move to my Mom's town about 20 hours by bus. There, I was re-enrolled in a big school ( a College), with much better "regular" teachers, run by the priests of The Society of Divine Word (SVD). There, I was able to recover. And my C's were dramatically changed to A's, they even placed me in the Honors Class! I finished my Grade School and High School with flying colors which made my parents proud. Then when I was taking some College courses, I came across The Sisters of Saint Bridget (OSB). These nuns are harsh and tough too!
I don't know why many of these nuns are wicked. I know some who are sweet and gentle too. But its like they were suppressed, repressed, or denied something, they want to get even at society in their own particular way! But come to think of it, things were hard in general in the "good old days". The rules then were: "Fear is the beginning of Respect" and " Spare the Rod and Spoil the Child". They didn't have a lot of Child Psychology books and Sensitivity Seminars back then. So now, still being a Catholic, all I can do to help them is pray: Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do. Amen.

I, too, served 13 years at a Catholic school in the 50s and 60s. There the similarity ends. Our nuns were intelligent, highly educated, funny and kind. No child was ever hit at our school. The buildings were beautifu and surrounded by magnificent gardens and playing fields,Tthere was a fabulous view of the ocean and we had the best school library in the state. I am grateful to my parents for sending me there and deeply grateful to the wonderful nuns who taught me.

This article proves that everyone has a story. I did the Catholic School tour of duty and encountered 1 "mean nun" and 20 terrific nuns. I have to respect women that give up almost everything for their vocation. I never saw the level of punishment many of the posters have but I am willing to believe it. I also believe that no one has more Self Respect, Self Entitlement and Self Importance than school kids today. I don't think that correlates into scholastic excellence. Somehow you need to instill discipline to get a classroom of kids to focus. Some go overboard and that is wrong. You still need it however.

it's evident ms noonan didn't get smacked enough

Well, I have to say that as far as I'm cocnerned, the discipline wasn't properly administered by the nuns. My father-in-law was raised Methodist, but attended a Catholic school for some time as a boy. He can tell stories about some of the nuns doing the same thing in his childhood school. But, he is a Wesleyan minister today and he would also tell you that proper discipline is very necessary in a child's life. He disciplined his three children. His boy has his master's in Early Childhood education and is a fantastic educator. His daughter is a Wesleyan pastor's wife with five wonderful children, and his other daughter (now deceased and who was my wife) did social work, raised other people's children, taught English as a Foreign Language in China, and was a missionary. So, I just want to say to you, Mr. Noonan, that though the discipline you received wasn't properly administered, it didn't land you in prison as a murderer. I mean, you actually got an education and now work for Newsweek. The thing that does most bother me about you, though, is your dislike for authority. That in itself is a 'heart' problem that only God will ever be able to help you with. There MUST be authority, or there will be chaos.

I find it funny that so many self-described teachers are posting in the Newsweek forums on a weekday during school hours. GET BACK TO WORK!

As a public school teacher, I am extremely disturbed by some of Noonan's comments in "A Catholic-School Veteran Tells All." Especially,the following: "The offenses that brought down the wrath of the sisters included "talking back"... swearing, fighting, fooling around in church... and so on. In other words, kid stuff." Talking back, swearing, and fighting are now just considered kid stuff? This type of attitude toward kids' wildly inappopriate behavior in schools is definitely a large part of the current problem in education. While corporal punishment may not be the answer, a shift in everyone's (especially parents') expectations about kids' behavior in schools are a big part of the often-mentioned "reform" needed in education. Until our nation's kids are held to a higher standard for their conduct, there can be no academic progress in schools. The "kid stuff" keeps getitng in the way of quality education.

I went to Catholic grammar school in Bogota, NJ during the 1960's. It was a miserable experience; I hated every single day, from the first day of Kindergarten until the last day of 8th Grade. The nuns were not afraid to hit us. I saw one kid get punched in the face so hard that his feet flew up in the air. What I remember more than the physical violence was the psychological abuse we received from the nuns. The nuns would humiliate you in front of the other kids, usually for some minor infraction.

Often the abuse was for no reason at all. If one of the nuns decided that she didn't like you, you would be picked on and humiliated whenever the nun felt like she had some aggression to get out of her system.

To this day I hate nuns, and the church. I will never forgive them. That is what violence and cruelty against children produces.

Hows This Work For You!

In my home town they did away with corporal punishment years ago
Now you have kids that are afraid to go to school because of bullies. The school has been unable to ease this problem so they started an alternative school. If you misbehave a couple of times your expelled to the alternative school. If your parents don't like it they can send you to private school, If they have a lot of money and a lot of pull with the right people. Private schools don't want problem students either.
After being sent to alternative school you have a new set of rules. Each time a student gets out of line they get a suspension. Each suspension bcomes progressively longer upto ten days. After that they can have the police arrest you for disorderly conduct. Under certain conditions this can be placed on their permanent record. This is taken before the school board. On a consecutive arrest the student will be sent to a reform school or permanently expelled depending on the circumstances. If expelled and the kid is under 16years of age the parent is responsible to provide home education or face legal issues. Anyway you slice it these kids are most likely on a one way street to jail. It's just a matter of when. Isn't a spanking a much better alternative to ruining a life.

And why is it when you mention a spanking, everybody goes off on this tantric escaped of beating a child should never be aloud. Who has ever mentioned BEATING these KIDS. KNOW ONE HAS SAID WERE GOING TO BEAT THESE MISBEHAVING KIDS. Were talking about a properly administered spanking. Not hitting anyone in the head, No beat down, Just a SPANKING.

OHWELL- Lets just send them of to jail. Like thats not going to have a major impact on there lives FOREVER!!!

Too bad people still try to justifyi child abuse. Not too long ago society believed men had the right to best women into submission too. I would never send my kid to a Catholic school. My mom's brothers and sisters grew up in a Catholic orphange and all 5 grew up extremely mentally ill and were never able to be productive members of society due to abuses they endured. I cannot believe how many people justify this torture.

One more thing ??? in Air Force ROTC Field Training, the authorities cannot physically harm the cadets. It???s a rule. They can???t even touch the cadets without consent.

In Catholic School, the authorities are allowed to harm the students.

The way I see it, if the teacher can hit you, you should be allowed to hit back.

"The offenses that brought down the wrath of the sisters included" ... "fighting, fooling around in church, throwing snowballs at girls and so on."

The school condemns children for fighting ... even if it is a case of someone just trying to stand up for himself against a bully on a power trip. If a football player tries to shove a nerd's head in the toilet and the nerd fights back to avoid getting the swirlie, then the teacher condemns the nerd as a "bad kid" for fighting in school and punishes him ... when all he was doing was standing up for his rights. That's messed up.

The nuns condemn children for fighting because it is violent and the Bible says that violence is wrong. Yet those same nuns use violence in their methods of discipline against the students. That's hypocrisy.

If a nerd uses violence to avoid getting a swirlie ... then he must be a bad kid because he fought in school.

But if a nun uses violence to discipline a student ... then it's okay because it is a standard practice.

See something wrong here?

"If there was an upside to the nuns' use of corporal punishment??? ... ???it was the spirit of camaraderie it fostered among the students. It was us against them, all the way. We were united in our defiance of the nuns' authority"

What David Noonan is describing is a social phenomenon which is similar to that at military basic training. The recruits are united in their hatred of the drill sergeant. Therefore, Catholic School has a parallel with military basic training.

With one big difference. In Basic training, the recruits are allowed to leave whenever they want. In the Air Force it???s called Self Initiated Elimination(SIE). In the Navy it???s Dropped On Request(DOR).

Catholic Schoolchildren have no SIE or DOR.

Another comment -- My husband, a retired military officer, a graduate of a known military academy -- never spoke about the difficulties of plebe summer, the discipline, the streses, of his four years as a cadet...However, he has quietly spoken of the "beating" he took from a "Brother" at the Catholic School he attended in New York....What were you doing? Talking in class! His mother was afraid to tell his father! Nothing was done. He was badly hurt.. That Brother should have been arrested. II knew him as a young person. Never would he cause any trouble -- He was selected out by a troubled man, who obviously did not want to be where he was.-- a frustrated man who should not have taken out his venom on the "boys" -- A Brothers' Boy we hear about !_-- Forget about !! And, I have a brother who is a Friar...I wonder if he ever did this to a young boy....If he did, and I doubt it, shame on him...

Please! There is a world of difference between a beating and a spanking! Also under no circunstances should anyone
be forced to take punishment on the head, that includes shaking of babies. I was forced to administer a strapping to a
junior high student and it was the hardest thing I ever had to do with my students. The child walked out of the Principal's
office laughing,wherein the Principal was forced to readminister the strap of ten times on each hand. I did not force the
student to write or hold a pen or pencil for the remainder of the class. Also, I am a female teacher.