E Pluribis Islam?

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  • Posted By: Jack Machin @ 05/01/2009 4:30:36 PM

    This comment is more in response to the comment which you quoted in your May Day blog. Having followed your blog with interest since I stumbled upon it some time after first reading "The Trouble with Islam Today", I note that comments from your supporters are not merely mindless idol worship, but invariably accompanied by thoughtful, reasonable and stimulating contributions to the topic at hand. Your opponents, on the other hand, seem satisfied with hurtful name-calling peppered with colourful but irrelevant epithets. They add nothing to the dialogue. If the non-reformists really have something worthwhile to say, I wish they'd say it. The nays definitely do not have it. As we say in Québec: "lâche pas!".

  • Posted By: MattUK @ 05/01/2009 3:29:12 AM

    You can take Islam out of the desert, Irshad, but you can't take the desert out of Islam.

    • Posted By: Mehdi Rifai @ 05/01/2009 4:17:41 PM

      Have you made this comment elsewhere before? Do you follow Irshad Manji around leaving this comment every time?

      This seems so bizarrely familiar...

  • Posted By: Kaye007 @ 05/01/2009 8:35:28 AM

    Salafism and Wahabism has overtaken the moderates . Islam has missed out on a reformation movement except the Sufis who spread Islam preaching tolerance and respect for all religions . The rise of militant Islam is erasing Sufism , which was prevalent in Pakistan too. The Saudi sheiks live in extrvaganza , yet promote Wahibism . The US support to their double standards fueled anti--amercanism , and gave impetus to militant Islam . Yet there are moderates in India , who shall remain steadfast against wahabism and set an axample for others to follow.!

    • Posted By: Mehdi Rifai @ 05/01/2009 4:16:12 PM

      I don't know why, but I always feel very resistant when I hear Sufis and their supporters talk like this. Sufism has a lot to teach, and is a very peaceful and meditative form of Islam, for sure. Which is why I always find it kind of counter-intuitive when Sufis lash out at the rest of Islam.

      Sufis telling other sects of Islam that they are the violent, negative ones is about as productive as Sunnis telling Shiites that they are simply a Jewish conspiracy brought to fruition. First off, not really true, and second of all, you're just going to have a lot of defensive angry people reacting against you.

      I realize that saying your mind is definitely within your rights, and there is much to respect about Sufi tradition. Why not highlight the positives of Sufism, and explain how other Muslims can integrate it into their own versions of Islam? Much less negative.

  • Posted By: bigdaddy1978 @ 05/01/2009 9:49:16 AM

    "In only 10 years, Islamism has gone from being a joke to a force" I think the author might want to examine this line.

    I would never have considered Isamism a joke by any stretch of the imagination and any muslim reading thisshould be offended to the highest order. Its an immature and nearsighted statement lacking any historical perspective.

    • Posted By: Mehdi Rifai @ 05/01/2009 4:09:23 PM

      I think the context, and the intended meaning of Islamism, is being lost in this comment. First is the where: It has been somewhat disconcerting to see the rise of the Taliban in Pakistan, although I have never been a fan of the various governments of Pakistan across history. Still, this group, definitely the worst form of political Islam, are a fairly recent entry into Pakistan's political foray. I don't think you'll find many who would feel otherwise, even among many hard-liner Muslims.

  • Posted By: liznlote @ 05/01/2009 10:54:09 AM

    In Malaysia, before the mass conversion to Islam, the Malays used to be a matriachal soceity where women's rights were equal to if not supercede the men's. Only one of those tibes still retain the status. Nowadays, instead of honoring a marriage vow, a man may go to court ( or not) and take a second wife with no regards to the feelings of the first wife. All Malays MUST be Islams, and no coversion to a different religion is allowed. There is no distinction between race and religion. So much so that a non-Malay who converts to Islam "becomes" a Malay and is awarded the special previledges that the Malays have... as if it is possible to discard the race one was borne in. Some very religious groups continually try to erase the Malay traditions that they consider not appropriate... never mind that these very songs, dances and ceremonies are the ones that define the Malay culture - which is not the same as an Arab-culture. Historically, the Malays were a peaceful group of people who lived harmoniously with each other and with nature and enjoyed what-ever life had to offer. It was never in our culture to bury our newborn daughters like the Arabs used to. There is no need to be ashamed of our beautiful culture.

    • Posted By: TheGardener @ 05/01/2009 12:21:00 PM

      The Matriarchal lifestyle you mention is inherent. It is a Native Lifestyle that has been systematically destroyed. It is not just a Malaysian problem but a world wide problem. The secret lays in returning the power to the ancient values which produced a fairly happy society.

      • Posted By: TheGardener @ 05/01/2009 1:12:56 PM

        How hard would it be to return the power to the old inherent matriarchal values and systematically get rid of islam? It isn't all that difficult to show how deceitful islam is.
        1) the Kabaa holds the remnants of a meteorite
        2) the pillars were man-made
        3) the devils are a fiction
        4) Mohammed was a caravan raider obsessed with war
        5)Mohammed abused women and children
        6) Mohammed never set foot in Jerusalem, much less did he fly on a donkey.
        7) there is no afterlife with 72 virgins
        Islam is full of lies.

        It is the fear factor that paralyses the people because they do not know better. Give them the information about the falsehood islam is which in turn will give put the power back with the matriarchal values. It is not just an issue of women or men, but of both to live together. To preserve the last tribe that lives by the old values is really a must.

        • Posted By: Mehdi Rifai @ 05/01/2009 3:59:59 PM

          I think it's useless to attack any religion based on the stories they tell, since every religion has the potential to get your eyes rolling, whether it be flying to heaven on a winged mule, walking on water, a god with eight appendages, parting the red sea, or being able to bring someone back from the dead by pulling some spirit back from the collective soul of all things.

          More useful, in my opinion, is to recognize that there is something to save in the original culture of the Malay. I think what you have done, bringing attention to the problem the Malay face, is very important. Gathering support for a return and revival of this culture should be your next step. Have you ever written an article on this topic? Can you or someone else bring this to the attention of someone who can publicize your point of view in a truly visible way? What suggestions do you have to safeguard your culture? What other nearly extinct cultures that have come back from the bring can you learn from? Can they help you? These are questions you can ask, and the answers will bring you closer to what you want to achieve.

  • Posted By: katstevens @ 05/01/2009 1:02:53 PM

    Good article . Gives some insight into why muslums aren't intergating and assimilating into our culture as other immigrants have. Why they don't raise their voices and fight their own fundamentalist. Why we should be worried that there are now 50 million in our country with the idea that they will change us from the inside without a shot fired or a suicide bomber needed. Take a look at this.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

    • Posted By: Mehdi Rifai @ 05/01/2009 3:45:41 PM

      Hi, maybe this is because I'm Canadian, but I find it kind of disconcerting that integrating and assimilating would be the sought after ideal. Wouldn't peaceful coexistence, recognizing that while our faiths and traditions aren't the same, we can still comfortably, happily, and amiably live together be a better goal? Some might say we're not even achieving that, but I think that's a propositions that more Muslims would be comfortable trying to achieve.

  • Posted By: saj_alex@yahoo.com @ 05/01/2009 1:48:14 PM

    what exactly is a "kafir" and are all or mostly all non-muslims kafirs? if kafir means that someone is in a seriously deficient
    spiritual state in relation to his fellow man/woman and a supreme being, and if most followers of other faiths are deemed to be kafirs, then I think Islam will continue to have a major problem learning to live with and respect other religions..

    • Posted By: Mehdi Rifai @ 05/01/2009 3:42:26 PM

      Hi, Sorry, only meant to comment once, but I guess I'm just not that tech savvy :p

    • Posted By: Mehdi Rifai @ 05/01/2009 3:39:12 PM

      Kafir literally means "denier," but denier of what? Some say Islam, which is the opinion of the intolerant; others say its the denial of God, allowing for more tolerance; a very few, however, believe it is the denial of anyone's right to live true to their own beliefs. It is this group that needs to be cultivated, so they can stand against prejudice perpetrated by Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

    • Posted By: Mehdi Rifai @ 05/01/2009 3:31:34 PM

      Kafir literally means "denier," but denier of what? Some say Islam, which is the opinion of the intolerant; others say its the denial of God, allowing for more tolerance; a very few, however, believe it is the denial of anyone's right to live true to their own beliefs. It is this group that needs to be cultivated, so they can stand against prejudice perpetrated by Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

    • Posted By: Mehdi Rifai @ 05/01/2009 3:14:35 PM

      Kafir Literally means "Denier," but what is being denied depends on who you ask. Some say it's Islam, which is when intolerance is brewed; others say it is God being denied, which is slightly more tolerant; a very few believe it is the denial of the right of anyone to live their lives true to their beliefs. This last few need to be emphasized and helped, so others with prejudices, Muslim or not, can be convinced of the need, and the possibility, of peaceful coexistence.

  • Posted By: jazzmanjim @ 05/01/2009 10:30:34 AM

    First of all - thank you to the author for a thoughtful article. While I might disagree with his religous choices in our pluralistic society I will defend his right to worship as he see's fit.

    That being said - the problem with Islam is the religion itself. There is no central authority as we Catholics have. It is up to every iman to interpert the Koran in their own way. Who is to say that the more **consertative** (Saudi) version is not the correct one? This is simular to **Bible-only** Christians. When there is only a book as one's final authority then anyone's interpertation could be correct.

    The authority issue is the reason I am Christian and Catholic. We (Cathiolics and to a lesser extent the orthodox) have a 2,000 year tradition (Sacred Tradition), Sacred Scripture (which was determined by the early Church) and the magestrium (which is a fancy word for the teaching authority of the Church). These three together point to Jesus as being God incarnate who died at the hands of the Romans and who rose from the dead. Jesus is not just a prophet (as claimed bu Muslims) but he claimed to be God (... before the Father was, I am...).

    Peace.



    • Posted By: pdskep @ 05/01/2009 10:58:13 AM

      "These three together point to Jesus as being God incarnate who died at the hands of the Romans and who rose from the dead"

      Wow, that's impressive. It's not that easy coming up with a perfect example of circular reasoning and you got it right out of the gate.

      • Posted By: jazzmanjim @ 05/01/2009 2:12:36 PM

        Circular how?

        We know from secular historians (Josephus and others) that there was a man who lived ~2000 years ago in what the Romans called Palestine. We dp know from these historians that this Jesus was executed. We also know that 50 days after this Jesus' diciples were claiming that he rose from the dead.

        There have been many **reasons** given as to why this was not an historical fact:
        - Jesus really didn't die but just passed out on the cross. This does not account for the fact that these wer Roman soldiers carrying out the execution. These guys knew when someone was dead. Besides, even if this were possible (which it is not) the appearences of Jesus, with 1st century medical care (if if can even be called that) would not allow him to appear as healthy.
        - the diciples stole the body and just claimed that Jesus rose from the dead. This has several issues: the guards were (again) Roman soldiers - it was punnishable by death for them to desert their post. Second, during (nd after) Jesus was on the cross these diciplies were doing their best to disavow them. What changed? All of them were able to tell the same storys of Jesus after this and were willing to die for this.
        - Jesus wasn't real and was made up by the disiplies. This has the same problem as the 2nd point above.

        Conclusion - Jesus was real and did rise from the dead,

        Peace.

    • Posted By: IndianDP @ 05/01/2009 11:19:25 AM

      The people who annihilated minority race in Germany and the people who wiped out millions of innocent people in Japan ( Nuked) have followed the same book, unless iam reading wrong history books.

      . Or did they call themselves pagans like those who lived in europe before 2000 years.

      Interpretations are by people and we are all same people, lets not find security in seclusion.
      All religions should be accepted and tolerated by all religions.
      Secularism does not mean atheism

  • Posted By: Vigilance @ 05/01/2009 2:07:28 PM

    To the anti-Islamic freaks on here: back off. Your beliefs are, quite probably, just as reprehensible as anyone else's.

  • Posted By: buzzjoy @ 05/01/2009 1:41:32 PM

    whether you like it or not, islam was created in arab society and arabs shaped islam as it is today. it is ARABIC islam that led to the umayyad, abbasid, fatamid empires. it is ARABIC islam that has established our religion as legitimate and respectful. most terrorists aren't even arabs, i'll have you know.
    my point is: it should not be a source of shame that islamic history is deeply rooted in arabic history. and there is NO possible way you can ever change that fact. you want to be a muslim? embrace its believers, prophet, and history. arab believers, an arab prophet, and an arabic history.

  • Posted By: Sanescience @ 05/01/2009 12:18:35 PM

    Islam is at a brink. It's numbers have fallen and youth are in greater numbers rejecting it as they are embracing it. What comfort is there in a religion so lacking in love for it's neighbor religions and treats it's women half as second class members. Islam was once noble but has been consumed by the heartless. It's reputation shall forever be stained by the actions of a small minority. So sad.

    • Posted By: Palin who? @ 05/01/2009 1:25:29 PM

      Almost sounds like you are talking about the Republicans....dieing away slow but sure.

  • Posted By: rramjet @ 05/01/2009 11:41:35 AM

    There is no such thing as Muslim diversity, oppose them and they cut your head off!!

    • Posted By: Bobdole @ 05/01/2009 1:00:34 PM

      Beheading was recently banned amongst the extremists who do such a thing. Executions are now carried out using guns for the most part. I personally have experienced a great diversity among Muslims. Comparable to the diversity found amongst Christians. You have your casual day to day believers, you have your extremists, and you have the ones who only cling to the religion by title but do as they please. The problem is that the extremists are allowed to carry on freely and meet little resistence. In most countries we tend to squash the extremists and limit their power. This hasn't happened with those individuals who seek to do harm in some foreign countries. Eventually people will stand up for what's right, governments will start being proactive in their security, and we will see a change in the Islamic communities affected by this sort of thing. Then all we will have to worry about is a new set of lunatics rising up to take their place in the neverending saga of religious insanity. I can see Tom Cruise on a white horse leading the Scientologists into battle.

    • Posted By: TheGardener @ 05/01/2009 12:23:38 PM

      Islam is probably the most undignifying god belief ever invented by the perverted human mind.

  • Posted By: MichaelX @ 05/01/2009 10:25:23 AM

    I take offense at the recent push to recognize this heinous belief.
    You can stick it up where the sun dont shine!
    This insidious machinations of corrupted minds and manipulative skulduggery is reprehensible.
    Go away! The new world does not want this ridiculous archaic bullshit.
    In fact, all religeous belief needs to be ended, as it is, and always has been lies, deciet, and simply stupid.

    • Posted By: Osama Bin Login @ 05/01/2009 12:43:57 PM

      Well, there's that silly first amendment thing we have...

  • Posted By: Riteaidbob @ 05/01/2009 11:51:30 AM

    This was a late April Fools day joke...right?

  • Posted By: Riteaidbob @ 05/01/2009 11:50:46 AM

    This article was a late April fools joke...right?

  • Posted By: sriram201 @ 05/01/2009 11:20:31 AM

    While progressive thought and belief is all well and good I find the question about marrying non muslims hilarious. It exposes the fallacy of religious thought in being 'only so much' progressive. By choosing to be a muslim, you are subscribing to a system of beliefs that like most religions has no rational basis. I don't find it laudable that progressive muslims are revolting against conservative muslims. I understand the strain of facing up to one's family is very real and hard but all of this islamism is going to hit a 'enough is enough' boundary at which point someone's thought or actions go against the most progressive version of Islam out there. As long as you are in the fishbowl you are fish

  • Posted By: tonyrotz @ 05/01/2009 10:15:01 AM

    Islam is at war with itself and Islam will lose.

  • Posted By: tainoaz @ 05/01/2009 10:08:08 AM

    The same 'Carrot' Rewards dangled in front of the ignorant in the East are used in the West. Heaven and the promise that if you work hard and follow the RULES you will get to live well and later in heaven.
    The rich everywhere do despicable things. The Royal Saudis have sexual and gambling excursions overseas that I have witnessed with my own eyes! I worked in 'World Class' hotels and seen how they arrive in Western Style clothes and let loose! We are a bunch of idiots to these Greedbags. IDIOTS
    There has never been a greater tool for making 'tools' out of unsuspecting and well meaning people. What better way to manipulate people to send their kids to do their dirty deeds?
    Religions were all concocted in antiquity from evolving superstitions and cults. All of them. Every so called 'Holly' book has been edited and reedited to subjugate women and justify madness, Every ONE. It is so plainly evident it's not even funny. Indoctrinating your kids is abuse!

  • Posted By: sieg6529 @ 05/01/2009 10:07:18 AM

    If only all those desert-borne superstitions just went away....

  • Posted By: Cowboygunsmith @ 05/01/2009 10:02:42 AM

    This is just the latest case of religon being used to control the masses. I offten wonder what God thinks of all the rules and edicts man has concured up in his name to further our control over each other. When will we come to the understanding all religons primary purpose is to worship God, Alla not to judge our fellow man or women. Lets get back to worshiping our maker and not killing each other or trying to control each other. Basic human laws are the same all over and when followed would bring peace to all. Think about it. But until then please excuse me if I fight to protect my family from a faith or religon that advocates my demise.

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