A Long Road Traveled

There will undoubtedly be political struggles ahead, but for one gay activist, meeting with President Obama on the anniversary of Stonewall was a deeply emotional event.

Newsweek Web Exclusive
Updated: 10:33  a.m. ET Jun 30, 2009

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  • Posted By: mahalapril @ 06/30/2009 5:36:59 PM

    We have beome a decadent society, which always precedes the downful like the Roman Empire. Movie stars and singers have become drunk drivers,drug abusers,promiscuous, aborters of their own live human babies,in and out if rehab. Gays who are perverts have become arrogant,violent,aggressive and trying to impose gay marriage against the majority. GAYS HAVE A PERVERTED SEXUAL PRACTICES [MULTIPLE SEXUAL PARTNERS AND ANAL -ORAL SEX IN BATHHOUSES BEFORE AIDS CAME WHICH INCREASED THE TRANSMISSION OF AIDS]. AIDS FORCED THE GAYS TO BECOME MONOGAMOUS OR BE EXTERMINATED. CIVIL UNIONS DON'T PROHIBIT LOVE SO THE ONLY REASON FOR GAY MARRIAGE is for their own financial selfish interests.If we allow gay marriage then next would be humans marrying animals,fathers marrying sons or grandsons,mother marrying daughters and grandaughters,brothers marrying brothers and sisters marrying sisters.. The gays know that gay marriage will damage and confuse the future of our children and grandchildren but they are willing to go ahead anyway for their lusts and get money at the same time. Enough is enough. I am an atheist who believes that we can still have moral values even without religion. The human mind is smart enough to know right from wrong,good or bad,perversion from normal pratice,greed and lust from love.Where will we put the limit ?

    • Posted By: topzucchi @ 09/03/2009 5:06:20 PM

      The human mind is smart enough to know right from wrong,good or bad,perversion from normal pratice,greed and lust from love. YOU, y friend, are certainly not Human. Your closer to a donkey's behind.

    • Posted By: dumb=dem @ 07/01/2009 8:28:15 AM

      Wow, Im a christian and im going to side with the atheist on this one.

      • Posted By: bkrummel @ 07/01/2009 1:14:14 PM

        Wow, I'm an atheist, so what atheist are you siding with? Also, I'm going to side with Momwoman on this one.

        By the way, do you have a justification for why you side against gay marriage or is it just because?

        • Posted By: dumb=dem @ 07/02/2009 7:07:58 AM

          bkrummel, I agree with the athiest that said where will we put the limit on other things if we allow gay marriage everywhere. And thats probably the only thing we agree on.I seem to have hit a softspot with you. Cant you handle someone with a different opinion than yourself? Thats like most gay people tho. They can dish it, but they cant take it.And for the record i do have my reasons as to why i am against gay marriage.1. The bible says its an abomination.2. My church disagrees with gay marriage so why must you FORCE them to accept your lifestyle and to marry gay couples. Why cant you all just be happy with your lifestyle BEHIND CLOSED DOORS instead of FORCING the rest of the world to accept it. 3. I dont want to accept it. To me its sick . Just like the opposite sex seems sickening to you i guess. Im not FORCING you to accept my beliefs, so stop FORCING me to accept yours. Any questions??

          • Posted By: bkrummel @ 07/03/2009 1:58:20 AM

            3. I don't want to accept it. To me its sick.
            I hope my gay friends don't read this, but to be honest it sometimes make me a little sick too when I see a gay couple together. A lot of straight people do and it's normal. The things is, I make a choice of whether I let the sickness get to me. I chose to respect my fellow man and to be a good friend. After making that choice, I get to enjoy the company of my gay friends. Gay people are great people just like everyone else and gay couples care deeply for each other just like straight couples. Gay relationships can be just as beautiful as straight ones. The point is, if you find it sick that's fine. But don't use it as an excuse to be a bigot and not accept homosexuals and disrespect your fellow man. Moreover, don't use you finding it sick as an excuse to deny gays marriage. Such excuses are just pathetic!

            4. I'm not FORCING you to accept my beliefs, so stop FORCING me to accept yours.
            You are FORCING others to accept your beliefs. You are preventing gays from marrying because "the bible says its an abomination", "my church disagrees with gay marriage", and "to me its sick". You are using your personal beliefs and feelings to establish public policy that effects other people. Gays are not FORCING anything on you and you can live your life however you wish in spite of them. You can continue to think homosexuality is sick if you want. Gays are just demanding equal rights and in particular the right to marry. From there they will live their lives and you will live yours.

            You know, I didn't read one good reason in your post for opposing gay marriage. I just read a lot of stuff about your beliefs and feelings. All you really needed is one reason: "I don't like homosexuality or gay marriage. I don't feel comfortable with it. So I oppose it." Just because you feel uncomfortable, you are infringing upon how gay people live their lives. Maybe you should stop being a selfish jerk and think about how you vote and political positions effect other people for a change.

            • Posted By: dumb=dem @ 07/05/2009 5:32:04 PM

              bkrummel, You say to stop being such a selfish jerk. Whos being a selfish jerk here? YOU ARE. I believed homosexuality was wrong first. Why should i change my beliefs just to be accepted by 10% of America? Your an atheist so i dont expect you to understand this but im going to tell you anyway. Being a christian is not about pleasing the world it is about pleasing God. Now really what kind of christian would i be if i told God sorry but bkrummel and the gay community want me to disreguard what the bible says about homosexuality and start supporting them. Sorry lord , its the world were livin in. I have to support them.. Not a very strong one if that. I think you should stop being such a selfish and childish brat that cries if they dont get there way and start respecting other peoples beliefs and religion. I am not here to please the world bkrummel. I am here to please God.

              • Posted By: bkrummel @ 07/06/2009 2:32:59 AM

                You say that you are "here to please God" and that, as part of pleasing God, you oppose gay rights because "The bible says its an abomination". I have to wonder how seriously you take what the Bible says and pleasing God. The reference to homosexuality being an abomination is from Leviticus. In particular we have Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Have you supported anything along the lines of homosexuals being put to death? Leviticus also says
                - Leviticus 20:18 "If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." I am sure you've never had sex while the wife was on her period.
                - Leviticus 19:27 "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." So, have you ever gotten a hair cut or shaved?
                - Speaking of abominations, there is Leviticus 11:10 "But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." I assume you never eat shrimp, lobster, or any other shellfish.

                Now I'm no expert on the Bible (though I guess if I was a Bible expert I would have many more examples). The point is do you follow every line of the Bible perfectly? My guess is you probably don't. In which case, don't you find your behavior inconsistent? And given the things in the Bible (in particular Leviticus) that you do not follow, why do you insist on regarding homosexuality as an abomination? Put another way, why do you, for example, get to ignore the Bible while enjoying shrimp but you feel compelled to deny my gay friends legal rights?

                • Posted By: dumb=dem @ 07/07/2009 9:00:07 AM

                  You know as a christian there are some things in the bible i do not understand and why they are there. I just try to live by the bible the best that i can do as human. To be honest i have never eaten shellfish, dont care for lobster , but i do love shrimp if that makes you feel better. If i have to answer to God for eating shrimp than i guess i will be held accountable.lol. And i really dont know why God told Moses thou shalt not kill but did tell Moses homosexuals shall be put to death. But if youll notice God did destroy the sodomites himself. Maybe God was saying to leave the judging and killing up to him. A lot of things have changed since the coming of christ. Jesus said to love thy neighbor , And not to judge lest thou be judged. But Jesus also said in matt.19v 4-6 Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, for this cause shall a man leave father and mother , and shall cleave to his wife: And they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together , let no man put asunder. The pharisees asked Jesus about divorce yes but Jesus also could have went out of his way to mention same sex marriage there but he didnt. That is why i do not agree with same sex marriage. If you can show me one place in the bible, just one where the bible praises homosexuality than i will agree with you . And by the way how am i forcing you to live by my beliefs and religion i would love to know.? Is there any christian thats holding a gun to your head and demanding that you convert over to christianity? Do you feel afraid in your own home for the christians that are outside your door? Are you afraid to go out in public for the fear of being mobbed by christians reguarding your atheist beliefs?? didnt think so . How are you being forced to live by my beliefs and religion? And i am talking to homosexuals as well as atheist here. What you do in the privacy of your own home and also while your out in public for that matter is your buisness and your buisness only. Christians are not judging you or forcing you to live by thier beliefs. The last time i checked it was not against the law to be an atheist or homosexual.All christians are asking is that you leave marriage between God, male and female just as its always been for the past thousands of years . No one is saying you cant be a homosexual or do what homosexuals do in thier own lives. But leave marriage out of it. Thats Gods gift to us as male and female. Why do atheist and homosexuals all the sudden become religious when they go down to the nearest church to get married anyway? Ive never understood that. Athiest spend all their life not believing in God but when its time to get married they go down to the nearest church to get married. Isnt that defeating the whole purpose of being an athest? Since marriage is by God why do you all the sudden become religious then? Thats just wrong.

                  • Posted By: bkrummel @ 07/07/2009 4:30:31 PM

                    "And by the way how am I forcing you to live by my beliefs and religion I would love to know?"
                    You impose your beliefs on others in ways much more subtle than holding a gun to one's head and telling them to convert to Christianity. You impose your beliefs through public policy. Christians have imposed their beliefs through the public school system on children, teaching Creationism in science classes and abstinence only and thereby giving kids false information. To be clear, teaching Creationism in an appropriate setting is entirely okay, but Creationism is not science and teaching Creationism in science class as if it were science is wrong. Moreover, non-Christian students shouldn't be compelled to learn Christian Creationism. As for abstinence only, such education is known to be full of inaccurate information about sex and does not properly prepare people who do not believe in abstinence for the realities of sex. You are imposing your beliefs on homosexuals by denying them the legal rights of marriage merely because you believe homosexuality is wrong and marriage is inherently religious (I will return to this issue). You are forcing your beliefs on others by passing public policy based on your beliefs and thus non-Christians and gays have your beliefs pushed on them since they have to live with those policies. Stop inserting your religion into matters that determine how other people live their lives. Keep your religion out of the schools and the law and in your church, home, and any other appropriate setting (note if you want to worship and celebrate God in public that is fine with me).

                    "All Christians are asking is that you leave marriage between God, male and female just as its always been for the past thousands of years."
                    Marriage hasn't been simply between God, male and female. In the USA, marriage has been between God, male and female, and the state governments for decades. The religious and legal aspects of marriage are separate things. As I explained before, gays are only really asking for the right to legal marriage and are not discussing religious marriage. Now, if you want the government to stay entirely out of marriage and leave marriage to society, that's fine. But I do not see a movement nor heard of any legislation for removing the government from marriage. So it seems you are not asking marriage to be just between you and God, you are simply asking the government to deny marriage licenses and rights to homosexuals. If you really want marriage to between you and God, get the government entirely out of marriage.

                    • Posted By: topzucchi @ 09/03/2009 5:03:08 PM

                      Thanks for the enlightenment. Why some people keep twisting the truth of things?

                  • Posted By: topzucchi @ 09/03/2009 4:59:57 PM

                    Did you read and understood the answers by bkrummel?

                  • Posted By: bkrummel @ 07/07/2009 4:41:27 PM

                    Moreover, many non-Christian societies (including Buddhists that do not believe in any god) have had marriage to, so marriage is not simply "God's gift to us as male and female". Marriage is not inherently religious at all, but rather marriage is a mere societal institution. Marriage is religious for religious people but not necessarily for everyone else. (This is what I meant by the bubble some Christians seem to live in; they only see marriage from the perspective of Christian culture where marriage is religious and overlook the obvious fact that non-Christians without any deity marry too.) So to partially answer your question of why atheists would marry, it is because to them marriage is not by God and in fact marriage has nothing to do with religion for them.

                    "Why do atheists and homosexuals all the sudden become religious when they go down to the nearest church to get married anyways?"
                    Let me repeat that to atheists and some homosexuals marriage doesn't have anything to do with religion, so we didn't suddenly find religion. The idea that marriage has something to do with religion is your view, not ours. To us, marriage about a love and a commitment and building a life with someone. An atheists man can find the girl of his dreams, live with her, have kids (if they want) with her, and love and support her. Homosexuals can too if they adopt the kids or something. There is nothing religious about love and commitment. There is nothing different from your Christian marriage and these atheist or homosexual commitments.

                    As for going to the church, not all atheists do this but rather they have a non-religious family ceremony. However, most atheists adopt the culture in which they are born. To them holidays and marriage are all about family and celebration and have nothing to do with religion. They just reject one part of the culture of people believing in God and accept the rest. This may be hypocritical, but that's the way things are.

              • Posted By: bkrummel @ 07/05/2009 11:48:06 PM

                dumb=dem, we live in a world with a diversity of people and beliefs. Not everyone believes what you do. Some people are homosexual and think that is okay. Some people like me have different religious beliefs than you. You seem to want us to let you live your life. You say you don't want us to "FORCE" our beliefs on you and want you to respect your beliefs. You should extend the same courtesy to other people, including gays, and let them live their lives.

                "Being a Christian is not about pleasing the world it is about pleasing God."
                You know, I really don't understand this way of thinking. I don't mean this to be rude, but some of you Christians live like you are in some sort of bubble. You put God so far before everything else that you are completely oblivious and inconsiderate to those who don't share your beliefs. You support public policies on the basis of what the Bible says and not based on whether the policy is good or how it will effect other people. And then when people like me call you out for doing so, you ask them to "start respecting other peoples beliefs and religion". You are a hypocrite if you expect respect from others while you are disrespecting them in the name of God. You know, if you want to believe in God and serve God, fine. But don't FORCE me to live according to your Christian beliefs and don't force my gay friends to live as if homosexuality is wrong. This isn't about "pleasing the world". This is about living in the world, where people do not share the same beliefs as you do. This is about letting gays live their lives and allowing them the legal rights to do so.

                As for what you tell your God about supporting gay rights - Your God gave us free will to live our lives as we chose and to chose whether or not to honor God. Tell your God that he was respecting our free will and liberty. That you let us decide whether or not to live for Him. You may have told people about God's love and encouraged them to live for him as you have, but you let the ultimate decision on whether to live for God or to live in another way to the people. That while you disagree with homosexuality, you did not judge and punish your gay neighbors by denying them legal rights because they sinned. Jesus taught you to love thy neighbor and not judge people, so I think a good Christian would act towards gays in this manner. And then you explain how you chose to live your own life as a Christian and to please God and how you followed his word in your own life.

            • Posted By: dumb=dem @ 07/05/2009 5:12:10 PM

          • Posted By: BookWormBelle @ 07/02/2009 3:24:45 PM

            I have a question!
            How long have you been so ignorant you refuse to see past your churches beliefs?
            I understand relgion is a very powerful and important thing to people, it's truly amazing. However, the only thing you showed in your post was ignorace. Yes, you gave reasons for not agreeing with gay marriage. But they weren't anything other than the typical religious propaganda.
            No body is FORCING you to agree. They want the same rights as everyone else. And believe it or not, there are gays and lesbians out there. It's not a hoax, it's a real thing. You can either get over it and realize they are around us, or live your life fighting against something that has nothing to do with you.

            • Posted By: dumb=dem @ 07/03/2009 8:15:03 AM

              Bookwormbelle, If you want to call my beliefs and the God of all creation ignorant , Than thats your problem. Your the one thats gonna have to answer to that one day. But to me that comment alone shows who the real fool is

          • Posted By: bkrummel @ 07/03/2009 1:58:04 AM

            Firstly, let me make something clear. Just because I support gay rights does not make me gay. I am in fact straight. I have gay friends, people who have been very important to my life, and I am standing up for their rights.

            I can handle someone with a different opinion that myself. I can't handle someone infringing upon my gay friends ability to marry without good justification. I'm curious to see if any of you can offer such justification, because I have yet to hear a good reason. Let's see about your reasoning...

            1. The Bible says its an abomination.
            Good for you. Don't act gay then. I have gay friends who don't view homosexuality as an "abomination", so how about they be free to live as a homosexual. Also, there are a lot of people in this country who don't read the Bible or believe what it says, so how about you follow the Establishment Clause and leave your religious out of our country's public policy. You live your life according to your Judeo-Christian values and let my gay friends live according to their own values.

            2. My church disagrees with gay marriage so why must you FORCE them to accept your lifestyle and to marry gay couples.
            No one is forcing your church to do anything. All gays are asking for is legal recognition of their unions as marriage. They want just the legal rights of marriage, the marriage licenses, and for their unions to be called marriage. They want nothing more. The legal marriage the gays seek and the religious marriage of your church providing the wedding ceremony are two completely separate things. Under the 1st Amendment, the government can't force you to hold a wedding ceremony for gays anyways. Even if gay marriage was legal, your church could disapprove of gay marriage and turn away gay couple seeking a wedding all they want.

            2b. Why can't you all just be happy with your lifestyle BEHIND CLOSED DOORS instead of FORCING the rest of the world to accept it?
            Just like all couples, gays do keep parts of their relationship private, such as sex, and can't force everyone to accept their relationship. But I take it you (I'll assume you are male) like being able to take your girlfriend or wife out into public, introduce your friends to her, kiss her in public, etc. I take it you would like to visit your wife if she is in the hospital, get appropriate benefits for your wife and family, and be able to adopt children with your wife if you wish. See, straight relationship do not stay behind closed doors; they interact with the rest of the world. Why should gay couples live any differently?

    • Posted By: blue_rylie @ 07/05/2009 10:28:39 AM

      Who exactly defines perversion? Premarital sex? Oral sex? Multiple partners at one time, or multiple partners over a period of time? I honestly and sincerely doubt that for all the preachin' going on here (atheist or otherwise, it's preachin') that all of us are participating in sex-for-procreation-only and engaging then only in missionary sex with the lights off to avoid supposed perversion. Unless you're in the majority of bedrooms in America, I'm gussing you don't know who's defining what as "normal vs. perverse"

    • Posted By: bkrummel @ 07/01/2009 4:03:58 AM

      A FEW movie stars and singers have engaged in such excessive behaviors. You should look at movie stars like Johnny Depp and Christian Bale who are good family men and take their craft seriously.

      A FEW gays have become "arrogant, violent, aggressive and trying to impose gay marriage against the majority". Most gays are everyday people just living their lives like everyone else. They have jobs and friends like everyone else. You wouldn't know they are gay if you just meet them. Most gays wanting to marry just want the legal rights to form a family just like you and I can. They just want to live their lives freely and have no interest in imposing anything against anyone.

      A FEW bad apples does not make our society decadent.

      As for the "perverted sexual practices" of gays, all sexual practices are perverted. All sexual practices could lead to spreading STDs.

      As for the consequences of gay marriage, gay marriage will not lead to "humans marrying animals, fathers marrying sons or grandsons, etc". This is just an irrational fear. A romantic relationship between two unrelated human beings is greatly different than a romantic relationship between man and animal (not really a relationship of equals) or between family members (that's just disgusting and most of society feels that way). Gay marriage isn't going to convince children to "go ahead anyway for their lusts and get money at the same time". Gay marriage, like straight marriage, is about committed relationship and not simple lust or money and children will continue to see marriage as such a commitment.

      "Where will we put the limit?" I think you are irrationally concerned that we need a specific limit. But I think our society should only support loving, healthy, committed marriage relationships and anything else is crossing a line. While homosexuality may be a bit abnormal, I think gay marriage would be such relationship and should be permitted.

      By the way, what is the basis for your claims and concerns? How many gays and gay couples do you really know?

    • Posted By: Momwoman @ 06/30/2009 7:47:10 PM

      Wow. I'm really impressed. You can see the future AND hate 10% of humanity at the same time.

  • Posted By: blue_rylie @ 07/05/2009 10:25:11 AM

    Seriously, comparing two consenting adults making an informed decision to animal marriage? Can we list the things wrong with this? Of all the attempts at preventing gay marriage, this has to be the most ignorant. Consenting, capable, informed adults vs. an animal who can't consent, and isn't capable of entering into a legal and binding agreement anyway. Apples, Oranges, and throw in a Lemur. These things are not comparable, not legally, not morally, not ethically, and not religiously

  • Posted By: blue_rylie @ 07/05/2009 10:21:03 AM

    bkrummel:
    Enough said! You summed it all up. Fear isn't reason enough to deny someone their rights, nor is belief...religious or otherwise. Distaste and disapproval also not reason enough to deny someone their rights. Churches won't be forced to marry anyone, they aren't forced to do so for heterosexual marriages so I never understood the theory they'd be forced to marry gays. The churches that don't want to, simply won't have too. Churches that do choose too, and YAY for them, will be allowed too. It's all about the love, love your neighbor, love your spouse/partner/family, love your community. You don't have to agree, but you make the choice to respect and love or hate and alienate.

  • Posted By: bojack27 @ 07/01/2009 4:32:57 PM

    This is simply disgusting!

  • Posted By: alexihelligar @ 06/30/2009 6:26:09 PM

    mahalapril is an idiot.

    • Posted By: bkrummel @ 07/01/2009 4:06:40 AM

      Perhaps, but I think we should treat Mahalapril with respect. There are many people out there like Mahalapril with serious concerns and fears about gay marriage. If we talk to them, some of these people might actually support gay marriage. I think convincing such people may be key to overturning Prop 8 and increasing gay rights.

  • Posted By: Momwoman @ 06/30/2009 7:56:21 PM

    It is time. It is time to put hate aside, to prove to the crazy right that equal rights for everyone is not the end of the world. It is time to have faith in the God who made us, all of us, unique and different, and to celebrate and love each other for our differences, even as we love each other for our similarities.
    Let there be strenght and gentleness, black and white, gay and straight, mirth and reverence, and joy for each unto their kind, and for all others.
    Blessed are the lonely, blessed are the stubborn, blessed are those who seek for justice.
    May they never be silent.
    Blessed be.

  • Posted By: btcarney @ 06/30/2009 1:04:59 PM

    To quote Hamlet, "words, words, words." The time has come for action on GLBT issues from the President.

  • Posted By: DCVirago @ 06/30/2009 11:56:22 AM

    As a biracial kid with Kansas roots, there's a certain, distinct level of understanding of prejudice and bigotry that this President has that few others could have possessed. That said, while I'm glad he is supportive of our issues in theory and has taken steps to help LGBT families, especially, that he hasn't taken significant steps to help the largest and now oldest generation of Americans find protection under the law is disconcerting. Having been in Florida when hundreds of LGBT and straight domestic partnerships and civil unions were dissolved by Amendment 2, leaving many of our grandparents without financial protections, I saw first-hand how our current president refused to take a stand on the issue during the campaign. Yes, he claimed it was a state issue, but even Jimmy Carter said "No on 6" when he saw an unjust state referendum during the campaign. Sometimes speaking out is all it takes to protect Americans from unjust laws, and I'm concerned that President Obama doesn't do that.

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