I am actually flabberghasted at how deluded, simplistic, naive and outrageously politically motivated this author is in carrying across this article.
How can anyone take Newsweek seriously after allowing him to dish up this tripe. Trying to pull the cottonwool over the eyes about the islamisation of europe is one thing, but trying to dismiss the tireless research of the likes of Robert Spencer and Bruce Bawyer with a hand wave dismissal. Utterly dispicable.
Why Fears Of A Muslim Takeover Are All Wrong
Analyzing the forecasts of an emerging 'Eurabia,' hostile to America and western values.
Published Jul 11, 2009
From the magazine issue dated Jul 20, 2009
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Posted By: Logical_Lady @ 10/11/2009 11:48:22 AM
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Posted By: ihatefascists @ 09/02/2009 2:56:18 PM
It astounds me the complete ignorance of most of the posters in here. I once thought that Europe was a bastion of enlightened ideals and a strong proponent of rational and logical discourse, but apparently I am wrong.
To the ignorant fool who posted 5:51 of the Qur???an in a pathetic attempt to defame Islam; if you had a single honest bone in your body you would of also posted Al-Mumtahinah 60: 8-9:
Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them. For Allah loves those who are just.
The hatred of Islam in Europe parallels the hatred of jews throughout the 18-20th centuries. If one were to examine the arguments used against jews in Europe and compare them to the kinds of diatribe used against muslims of today, the similarities are startling: for one, both eras used the books of both the jews and muslims (talmud and the qu'ran) to justify their arguments that "they" are hell bent on killing christians, on taking over the world; that "they" refuse to assimilate and to adopt European standards and life style. The right wing of Europe during the 1920's leading up to WW2 are no different at all than the current right wing groups you see today. THAT is something people need to be worried about.
Also the same sort of anti intellectual air is also similar. You have the right wing bigoted idiots in here bemoaning liberalism, academia, and scholars for being too "weak" regarding the "muslim hoards"; like this stevebofrum fool making the ridiculous accusation that newweek is "marxist", simply because he is upset that its FACTS don't coincide with his racist, bigoted and unfounded views.
In conclusion, if anyone in here who wants to provide contrary evidence to this newsweek article--without resorting to petulant knee jerk reactionaries--PLEASE provide CREDIBLE NON BIASED and SCHOLARARY BACKED FACTS and not fascist right wing bigoted websites promoted by persons/groups such as pro cologne, geert wilder, jihadwatch and other vile, disgusting and hateful fascists such as these.
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Posted By: IndianDP @ 08/02/2009 11:18:15 AM
TOBA TEK SINGH, Aug 1: Seven people were burnt alive and 18 others injured in Gojra on Saturday after fresh violence erupted in the town over the alleged desecration of the Holy Quran three days ago.
More than 50 houses were set on fire and a place of worship belonging to a minority community was damaged by an angry mob. According to sources, most of the houses were burnt by a group of youths who had their faces covered with veils. They threw petrol bombs and fired indiscriminately.
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/front-page/seven-burnt-alive-in-gojra-violence-289
This is current Pakistan and future of Philippines, Thailand, Chehenya, Ughuir and Kashmir, to annihilate everything and subjugate everybody including muslims. Islam likes intoleranc and violence.
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Posted By: ross1972 @ 07/11/2009 11:53:09 PM
Stick your head in the sand all you wish my friend,by 2050 eurabia will be an unfortunate reality that the world will be forced to deal with.Islam has spread throughout the world by trade,war and immigration and the end result is plain enough to see,indigineous religions stifled and oppressed with clear quranic rules on how the subjugated non muslims are to be treated.Times have changed but the iron age mentality of islam has scarcely budged and europeans,canadians and americans need to recognise their peril before it is too late.
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Posted By: stevebronfman @ 08/02/2009 12:02:40 AM
From reading the article and comments a few things are clear;
Newsweek has published the article based upon its political agenda with little or no supporting evidence.
Newsweek is completely out of touch with reality and its readership.
The mainstream media is dying a slow death because it puts political correctness and cultural relativism before the truth. There is a worldwide campaign by almost every major Muslim sect and group for a global caliphate. They're not even secretive about it. They preach it opening and publish their manifestos openly. To ignore this just makes Newsweek a propaganda mouthpiece for a marxist ideology.
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Posted By: axiomizer @ 07/12/2009 6:47:44 PM
This article is unbelievably naive and ignorant of reality or it is an attempt to gloss over the problem.
I wonder if there have been any large payments from Saudi sources arriving in Mr. Underhill's bank account.
William Underhill said: "The truth is that there are no powerful Muslim
political movements in Europe"
There most certainly is - It is called Islam.
"The worst of the scaremongering is based on the assumption that current behavior will continue" - As the basic behaviour has changed little in 1400 years, what makes you believe that it will change in the next 20?
What Underhill should have said is: "I believe it is "peace for our time." Go home and get a nice quiet sleep"-
Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/13/2009 4:36:18 PM
Actually, Islamic societies have changed quite a bit in the last 1400 years. Islam spread far and wide, and minorities were often (though not always) treated better than in the Christian world. For instance, Jews in Spain preferred living under Islamic rule than under Christian rule because the Muslims respected Jewish property and worship rights. It was the Christians who most often converted Jews and Muslims at the point of a sword. In addition, Muslims preserved and translated Greek and Roman knowledge and built the most advanced civilizations of the Middle Ages.
In other words, the posts that claim that Islam is a throughly barbaric and backward religion and always has been are just plain wrong.-
Posted By: Arch Man @ 07/18/2009 4:07:32 PM
islamic nations wiped out minorities if you can show be which muslim nations have huge percentage of minorities please. Persecution at government level to stret level is ubiqutous.Oppression and forced conversions are the .Islam had spread by brutal force.
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Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/18/2009 4:21:27 PM
Well, Iran houses the second largest population of Jews in the Middle East.
Christians make up and estimated 40% of Lebanon's population, and Lebanon's president is a Christian. Meanwhile, between 10 and 15% of Syrians identify as Christian. In Jordan, Christian comprise 7% of the total population.
I think that answers your question.-
Posted By: Arch Man @ 07/18/2009 4:53:25 PM
The list of muslim nations were 100%christian or jewish, which were brutalized to become muslim.25,000 is a big number in over 60 millions (irana). Ask a jew from Iran who has left Iran, then you will know the true storey.
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Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/18/2009 5:38:07 PM
Well, as it turns out, Israel offered Iranian Jews financial incentives to leave; some left, but others stayed. I can't speak for all of Iran's Jews, but they seem to be pretty happy where they are.
As for nations that were 100% christian or Jewish: can you give me an example?-
Posted By: Arch Man @ 07/18/2009 7:59:16 PM
hairsplitting wont help move debate forward at best its childish i should say.
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Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/18/2009 9:28:12 PM
What countries were "brutalized" into becoming Muslim?
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Posted By: stevebronfman @ 07/21/2009 10:15:37 AM
Actually due to persecution and intolerance the Christian populations of the middle east are shrinking rapidly (the only Christian population growing is Israels). In Muslim law Christians and Jews are second class citizens or "dhimmis" who have to pay extra taxes etc. No new churches may be built in Islamic law in Islamic countries (only repair of existing ones). For example when Turkey was created Christians were something like 15% now theres hardly any left. The situation is the same throughout the middle east. You're clearly an apologist for Islamic persecution of non-muslims. My friend had the flee Iran for being an Bahai and spent many years in a refugee camp. You're basically "full of crap".
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Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/22/2009 1:13:41 PM
Yes, it is true that the Christian population of the Middle East is falling, but I would make two points: first, the Middle East houses a minority of the world's Muslims and second, you have not presented any evidence that the falling numbers of christians is caused by persecution.
In fact, while religious freedom is severely limited in Saudi Arabia, Iran's constitution recognizes the rights of certain religious minorities including Christians and Jews with phrases like "the investigation of individuals??? beliefs is forbidden" and that "no one may be molested or taken to task simply for holding a certain belief." It is true that some faiths - the Baha'i being a good example - are actively persecuted, but IN GENERAL (and I say that cautiously) Jews and Christians are pretty much left alone in Iran.
Indonesia's constitution, a country which is almost 90% Muslim, states "all persons the right to worship according to their own religion or belief " and that "the nation is based upon belief in one supreme God." Indonesia's government recognizes six religions - Islam, Catholicism, Protestantism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Confucianism - and accords each of these full freedom of worship. Other religions are not so lucky, but the point is that again Islam and Islamic countries are not UNIFORMLY intolerant. Some of them have a way to go in creating the type of religious tolerance we (allegedly) have in this country, but they are not scimitar wielding barbarians converting everyone at the point of a sword either.-
Posted By: stevebronfman @ 08/01/2009 11:40:06 PM
You only need to do a little research on google to discover that in every Muslim country in the middle east the xtian populations have shrunk considerably recently. In iraq for instance there has been a kidnapping campaign against christians. For guspenissin Muslims are never to blame for anything. His posts never admit any responsibility for any Muslim actions. The onus of proof is on him to proove that the exodus of Christians from Muslim lands is not cause by the policies of Sharia law, Dhimmi status etc because there is no debate that Xtians and all minories are leaving the middle east as fast as they can. Google the Jihad Watch website and theres links to newspaper articles almost everyday in which Christians are kidnapped in Egypt, Pakistan etc and forced to convert to Islam or killed for being Christian. Recently in indonesia 2 christian schoolgirls where beheaded by Muslims simply for being Christian. This sort of hatred does not come out of thin air it is incited my Islamic preachers in Mosques referencing the Koran. The Memri website has literally thousands of examples in print and television of Muslim Imans inciting hatred and violence against Jews, Christians and others. Here is evidence Gus; www.memri.org/ www.memritv.org/video.html www.jihadwatch.org/
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Posted By: erenkoy @ 07/28/2009 12:07:13 AM
"When Turkey was created Christians were something like 15% now theres hardly any left" At the same time the Muslims were something like 20% of Greece and there is hardly any left now. Neither country killed muslims or christians. Greek and Turkish governments brokered a deal to exchange Turkish descent Greeks and Greek descent Turks in their country.
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Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/18/2009 8:58:26 PM
How am I hairsplitting?
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Posted By: IndianDP @ 07/18/2009 12:45:59 PM
Persecution is very common in all muslim country.
statistics confirm that in a few decades the nonmuslims diminish bigtime as a rule
the leftover miniscule are fearful and poor
no new place of worship come up and old ones get demolished
see the human rights reports in muslim nations-
Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/18/2009 1:24:30 PM
What statistics are you sighting? I'd be very interested in seeing them. I'd also be interested in hearing some examples of persecution that you allege; your post was EXTREMELY vague.
As for persecutions, I will make the same point that I have made before: while it is true that SOME Muslim countries persecute non-believers, many do not. The second largest populations of Jews in the Middle East (after Israel) is in Iran and, despite being offered economic enticements by Israeli and American organizations, the vast majority of Iran's Jews have CHOSEN to remain.
In addition, Muslims have been persecuted by non-Muslims in countries like Uzbekistan, Burma and India. Moreover, they have been the target of what can only be called a campaign of genocide in Chechnya.
These examples demonstrate two things: first, Islamic governments are not universally intolerant and second, that Muslims are often the victims of persecution at the hands of other groups.-
Posted By: Arch Man @ 07/18/2009 4:15:54 PM
IRAN islamist have wiped out zorastrians and tiny number of them have run for their llives as refugees to India and live to this dat as Parsis- practicing their faith. Heard of Nano car by TATA. Yes tatas like Jamshedji Tata are Parsis from Iran
Bonverted Iran currently practices, chopping off hands and stoning women to death. Watch a film made by an Iranian Muslim to appreciate the later savage practice. Somehow living in denial is a trade mark of this religion.-
Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/18/2009 5:41:29 PM
OK, but we're not talking bout Zoroastrians, we were discussing Jews. Again, you're playing sleight of hand: my point is just that statements like "ALL Muslim countries persecute ALL minorities" simply isn't true. Turkey has recognized Israel and Jews serve in the Turkish parliament. The point is that many of the people on this page (you included) are guilty of gross overstatements and oversimplifications.
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Posted By: Arch Man @ 07/18/2009 7:54:08 PM
Quote- Minorities and women are generally treated as second-class citizens.
Life in the twilight zone
By Irfan Husain
Saturday, 18 Jul, 2009 | 04:21 AM PST
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/14-irfan-husain-life-in-the-twilight-zone-879-zj-01
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The above citation is from a muslim daily by a muslim writer in a muslim nation printed today.. Denial is the name of the game you take refuge in. Thats cowardice at best. Turkey, Jordan, Egypt etc recognized Israel OK in a total of how many muslim countries. What percentage of muslims see it legit. Lets talk about Turkey- It massacred millions of Armenians in the past and has the nerve to blame Chinese of massacre in urumqui of muslims. If You don???t call its oppression of kurds racist then what description you pick for these atrocities of Turkey. Its gradually slipping into a fundamentalist country before anyone realizes. Overstatements and oversimplifications- ya right. Blowing up of people all over the planet has a common denominator and you know what it is. Today, if we are talking of terrorism along with global warming, poverty, HIV, economy, gender rights etc internationally, then we should recognize that one religion can eradicate one of the menacing issues single handedly, listed here.-
Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/18/2009 9:20:58 PM
The point was not that Muslim countries are perfect. SOME of them have oppressed minorities in the past, and SOME continue to do so. However, not ALL of them are oppressive, and some non-Muslim countries are pretty oppressive as well. The point was that there was a lot of oversimplification and overstatements in the previous posts. Turkey did massacre Armenians, but that fact proves nothing other than that some Muslims committed a crime against humanity. It doesn't prove that ALL Muslims are barbaric in the same way that Holocaust does not prove that ALL Europeans are barbaric.
For instance, regarding women: there is no doubt that SOME Muslim countries treat their women as second class citizens. Saudi Arabia is good example, as is Afghanistan. On the other hand, I Muslim countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia and Turkey have had female heads of state. The issue is the multiple assertions that ALL Muslims act a certain way; they don't. For every example of Muslim oppression there is an example of Muslim tolerance, and for every example of Muslim barbarity there is an example of Western barbarity.-
Posted By: leohugh @ 07/31/2009 7:55:16 AM
The Muslims have double standards. When they are in a majority, they will forcibly convert or drive out the minorities, like Pakistan, Bangla Desh and most Islamic countries. In India itself Hindus in kashmir have been driven out and live as refugees .The minorities have to live within their laws and have no equal rights. But where they are in a minority status, they will insist on equal rights, use Human Rights, insist that their Personal laws should be respected and speak of secularism.
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Posted By: leohugh @ 07/31/2009 7:50:07 AM
Islam truely a religion of peace Do you need more examples of persecution well here we go.
In Egypt the howling Muslim mobs destroy Christian churches; Muslim men kidnap and rape Coptic girls. In Pakistan the Muslims threaten and attack and sometimes kill the Christians and the Sikhs and the Hindus; Muslim men snatch and rape and forcibly 'convert' young Hindu and Christian girls, and the Pakistani Muslim authorities side with the evil Muslim kidnappers and flatly refuse to help the distraught families who are trying to rescue their kidnapped and raped daughters. Muslims tell them that if they don't pay the jizya, the 'protection' money, they will be murdered.
In the Philippines Muslim jihad gangs attack peaceful Catholic villages and shoot unarmed people and cut off the heads of middle-aged farmers.
In Thailand the Muslims shoot elderly Buddhist monks and rake a crowd in a Buddhist temple with gunfire and shoot pregnant schoolteachers and seize an unarmed man and stab him and cut off his head and cut off his arms and legs and impale his head on a shovel and leave the arms and legs next to it and then set fire to what's left of his dishonoured, desecrated corpse.
In Mumbai the jihadists murder non-Muslims and let the Muslims go; and they take a Jewish rabbi and his pregnant wife and slowly, cruelly, fiendishly torture them to death.
In Indonesia Muslim men pounce on two little Christian schoolgirls walking to school AND CUT OFF THEIR HEADS.
In Nigeria Muslim mobs burn churches and throw rocks at Christians.
In Sudan Christians were enslaved, gang-raped, robbed, murdered in the thousands by allahu-akbaring Muslim jiahadis.
I forget Darfur black muslim brothers enslaved, gang-raped, robbed, murdered.
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Posted By: Arch Man @ 07/18/2009 4:23:56 PM
whatabout Philippines, Thailand, china. What is now going on in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Its notpersecution because both involved parties are muslims. So if muslims kill muslims its described as social rearrangement? Probably. Like kurdish people getting killed by Turkish, Iraqui and Iranians. Whatabout shias killing sunnies and sunnis shias. Social acclimatization. Muslims play victim status if they are a minority. They dont say that their lives are better in non muslim countries than the muslim countries. Lies, distortion and denial.
Lets see the china factor in next few years with one more ersecuting nation just added on. Man the list is growing....-
Posted By: leohugh @ 07/31/2009 7:49:47 AM
Islam truely a religion of peace Do you need more examples of persecution well here we go.
In Egypt the howling Muslim mobs destroy Christian churches; Muslim men kidnap and rape Coptic girls. In Pakistan the Muslims threaten and attack and sometimes kill the Christians and the Sikhs and the Hindus; Muslim men snatch and rape and forcibly 'convert' young Hindu and Christian girls, and the Pakistani Muslim authorities side with the evil Muslim kidnappers and flatly refuse to help the distraught families who are trying to rescue their kidnapped and raped daughters. Muslims tell them that if they don't pay the jizya, the 'protection' money, they will be murdered.
In the Philippines Muslim jihad gangs attack peaceful Catholic villages and shoot unarmed people and cut off the heads of middle-aged farmers.
In Thailand the Muslims shoot elderly Buddhist monks and rake a crowd in a Buddhist temple with gunfire and shoot pregnant schoolteachers and seize an unarmed man and stab him and cut off his head and cut off his arms and legs and impale his head on a shovel and leave the arms and legs next to it and then set fire to what's left of his dishonoured, desecrated corpse.
In Mumbai the jihadists murder non-Muslims and let the Muslims go; and they take a Jewish rabbi and his pregnant wife and slowly, cruelly, fiendishly torture them to death.
In Indonesia Muslim men pounce on two little Christian schoolgirls walking to school AND CUT OFF THEIR HEADS.
In Nigeria Muslim mobs burn churches and throw rocks at Christians.
In Sudan Christians were enslaved, gang-raped, robbed, murdered in the thousands by allahu-akbaring Muslim jiahadis.
I forget Darfur black muslim brothers enslaved, gang-raped, robbed, murdered.
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Posted By: Stephen Gash @ 07/13/2009 8:18:35 PM
Total garbage. Islam has always ruled by persecution. In the so-called islamic 'golden age' arounf 1,600 churches were razed to the ground in Spain. Islam was spread by the sword, except where it was stopped as in Vienna and Poiters. Why do you think armies were raised to stop muslims? Hey guys let's just stop this peaceful religion was the rallying cry.
Take a look at the meanings of razzya and jizzya. Then look at how non-muslims were treated in Serbia. You may then gain some idea of why the Serbs were so firce in the Yugoslav civil war not so long ago.
Anybody who defends islam is either ignorant or stupidly self-deceiving.-
Posted By: mkf1 @ 07/14/2009 1:03:07 PM
Stephen Gash. Projection. 160 million people killed by Christians in World Wars I and II. Genocidal maniacs murdering civilians in cold blood in Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki. Child raping pedophile Catholic church immune from criminal prosecution due to bigotry. You are what you claim others to be.
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Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/17/2009 12:42:41 PM
"Genocidal maniacs murdering civilians in cold blood in Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki. "
Yes, because those poor Nazis and Japanese did nothing to provoke those attacks.-
Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/18/2009 3:11:18 PM
Well, actually, Al-Qeda claims that the U.S. provoked September 11 by basing troops in the Middle East, supporting Arab dictators, and sending economic and military support to Israel; whether you accept those as valid reasons or not, Bin Laden believes that he was provoked.
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Posted By: wildechild66 @ 07/13/2009 11:01:44 PM
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Posted By: wildechild66 @ 07/13/2009 11:06:53 PM
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Posted By: Save the West @ 07/13/2009 11:32:31 PM
"In other words, the posts that claim that Islam is a throughly barbaric and backward religion and always has been are just plain wrong."
No, you're wrong. We're right.-
Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/14/2009 12:17:39 AM
Oh, I see how that works - rather than present evidence that supports your point, you just make a completely absurd assertion. I guess those years I spent getting a PhD in history were a waste...why bother learning the facts when all it takes is you saying "that's how it is." What exactly are you right about? That horrible Muslim monsters are going to get you if your mommy doesn't let you sleep with the bedroom light on?
Well done!-
Posted By: concerned liberal @ 07/16/2009 1:17:42 PM
No those years you spent achieving your PHD were not wasted, they were the formative years in developing your extreme liberal backround and opinions under the ever watchfull eyes of a fully tenured and liberal environment, probably supplimented by either scholarships or grants from the evil part of the world, you know those vicisous conservative taxpayers! Those year helped develop an opinion that the opinions of the majority are superceded by the opinions of the more enlightened, which of course you are the designator!
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Posted By: Vigilance @ 07/16/2009 2:00:36 PM
" they were the formative years in developing your extreme liberal backround and opinions under the ever watchfull eyes of a fully tenured and liberal environment"
Why exactly do you call yourself a "concerned liberal", again? I don't do the liberal version of the GOP "RINO/squish" thing - but when you castigate somebody liberal for being liberal and claim to be a liberal yourself, it's confusing. Do you feel yourself to be a true representation of liberalism as opposed to a false one or is that name a fiction?-
Posted By: concerned liberal @ 07/17/2009 10:42:31 AM
Read again: Extreme liberal, not JUST liberal, and yes I am sure that I am not worthy of your acceptance as a liberal because not ALL of my political beliefs do not ride the absolute left edge of the "scale". I guess that I will decide what I call myself. One question: Is there ever a time in the life of Vigilance that includes the ability to say: "Wow, I guess that the belief I have on this subject happens to be the minority side and I guess I must lose in a democracy", or does anything that you deem an idea of personal importance cause to go and super glue a megaphone and poster board to your hands and "damn well demand my ideas get forced upon the majority"?
I swear that if I ever meet a liberal (other than myself) that accepts the minority position and the acceptance of that loss of control ON ANY MATTER, I will have a cornary! More clearly stated : Democrats are the LEAST likely to accept democracy!-
Posted By: Vigilance @ 07/17/2009 11:43:11 AM
I accepted my minority position for six years over the Iraq War, "concerned". I spoke out against it when I could, but I didn't demand that anyone else believe the same way I did. In point of fact, I was just sad that so many people were eager to rush off to war on dubious information. And in fact, I don't believe in big government when the economy is working - I do believe in regulation - and I do believe in things like the stimulus. Have you seen the economic news lately? It actually looks like some things are starting to get better. Many of the bailout banks are turning profits and will be able to pay back the bailout money. I'm sorry you feel like I'm "demanding that my ideas get forced upon the majority", but I think you're mistaking my solid opposition to some of your ideas with demanding that you believe the same way I do. If you can't take it, if you feel like I'm shoving my ideas down your throat, I'm sorry about that. I also don't have to shut my mouth on your say-so, and I've seen you spout off on plenty of people yourself.
There are times I just don't feel you're very self-aware, "concerned". You come at people with unbelievable vitriol. I'm sorry you're pissed that I take a stance that's against a lot of what you say, and if you have a sack of balls on you (or a working cervix, I suppose) you'll be able to accept that. I'm sorry you have such a problem dealing with people who disagree with you.-
Posted By: concerned liberal @ 07/17/2009 12:27:13 PM
The comment that stated "extreme liberal" was to "gusdicksin" , not to you,. I just thought that since you were qualifying my liberality, that at least you should notice there is a difference between liberal and extreme liberal(the way I stated it).
I feel I can "take it", yet...........I never fail to see you "counter point" every anti-muslim statement on any of these threads, meaning specifically: you either are not aware that the majority (a large majority) are against muslim immigration and have at least a serious concern over the progression of "supposed expert" imformation on radical islam or you must feel that we who are anti-muslim must "find god" in your emotional plea's for selective amnesia of the facts!
The progression I speak of is the (just after 9/11) "there are only a couple hundred Islamic terrorist out there", (after the invasion of Iraq) oh crap, "a couple of thousand",(about two years in on the Iraq b/s) no " when polled, the great majority of Islamists are on board with any action including suicide bombing in an effort to see palestine into statehood"
I enjoy your posts and on a great many issue we do see eye to eye but, not on anything to do with "getting into bed with the group of scorpions " that I would not trust (you are aware that being a good liar is considered an attribute in the middle east?) to save my life!
Don't let my frustration over the lack of respect for democracy that Democrats have put you off your game, "rail on" (super glue away)against what would seem to me insurmountable numbers against the Islamists.
I could care less who disagrees with me, but although not a Democrat, I do believe in ABSOLUTE democracy on all things that are political.-
Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/17/2009 10:29:07 PM
The problem with "extreme democracy" boils down to something your mother surely told you: just because it's popular doesn't make it right. The United States is not a democracy; it's a democratic republic, and we have a bill of rights that is designed to insulate minorities' rights from majorities' passions. That is why, no matter how popular a law might be, the (unelected) Supreme Court has the prerogative to strike it down if it is unconstitutional.
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Posted By: concerned liberal @ 07/18/2009 12:39:56 PM
#1 The only way a democratic republic differs from a democracy is that there are elections to aquire REPRESENTATIVES that one might guess represent the wishes of their constituents and not vote 80-95% for minority related bills such as bills that provide for lobby groups, special interest, pork barrel, or even make a lucrative life for the "after politics life" such as in Bill Clintons case!
#2) If what was right was the concept that we all agree that we work by, then we would have been asked to "help bring righteousness to Iraq" instead of Democracy!
#3) If you read the proceeding posts you would have noticed that my "absolute democracy's" only caveat was any issue deemed to be a supreme court verified human rights issue . Beyond those, and I don't believe that there are too many human rights issues left that have not been explored, majority rules, period!-
Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/18/2009 3:08:10 PM
The Supreme Court doesn't "verify" human rights issues; it settles disputes between the states and the federal government and assures that federal laws square with the U.S. constitution. This means that the majority does NOT rule if what the majority wants is unconstitutional. As such, the Supreme Court functions as one of MANY checks on democracy in the United States.
As for the rhetoric behind the invasion and occupation of Iraq: this is a larger issue than can be adequately dealt with in a blog post. Suffice it to say that, just because the President says we are exporting democracy to another country doesn't make it true. Many people (politicians especially) misleadingly use the term "democracy" to describe our political system, which is an oversimplification at best.
Getting back to the matter at hand: 100% percent of Americans can vote to restrict Muslims' rights in this country, but that doesn't make it right or constitutional. Fortunately we have mechanisms in place to prevent the popular will from being enacted into law when what the majority wants is unconstitutional.
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Posted By: Vigilance @ 07/17/2009 11:45:58 AM
Honestly, man, if you think I'm an "extreme leftist", you ought to go take a trip to Santa Cruz and meet some genuine left-wing conspiracy theorists. I don't believe Dupont is trying to use chemical mind control on the masses, for instance - go talk about that with some of them if you want an entertaining afternoon some time. I don't believe there was any degree of massive electoral fraud in either 2000 or 2004. I think Reagan was a good President. I don't support a lot of the floatier, fluffier, absolutely unmeasurable-in-effect social programs that many liberals do. If you're looking to paint me as a hysterical leftist, you're missing some very important points in my political philosophy.
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Posted By: concerned liberal @ 07/17/2009 1:13:13 PM
Well, there is another issue that you and do not agree. I believe that though Reagan was a good human being that his legacy is blown way out of proportion(he did afterall literally take hundreds of billions out of social security to help balance his budget, which would not really be any special trick concidering it was never paid back to s/s and led the way to Clintons doing the same thing)! Ronnie was an ok president, but also represented the rich and powerfull first and foremost.
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Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/16/2009 2:46:39 PM
The "designator?" What does that mean?
You don't know anything about where I did my work or the people with whom I worked. At the end of the day, your argument seems to be that knowing more about a subject makes me LESS qualified to have an opinion about it. An opinion is not valid just because a majority of people hold it. Instead, what justifies an argument is strong support through facts and analysis. You've presented neither, preferring instead to call names and make unsupported assertions.-
Posted By: concerned liberal @ 07/17/2009 2:02:52 AM
des·ig·nate (dzg-nt)
tr.v. des·ig·nat·ed, des·ig·nat·ing, des·ig·nates
1. To indicate or specify; point out.
2. To give a name or title to; characterize.
3. To select and set aside for a duty, an office, or a purpose. See Synonyms at allocate, appoint.
adj. (-nt)
Appointed but not yet installed in office: the commissioner designate.
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[Latin dsignre, dsignt- : d-, de- + signre, to mark (from signum, sign; see sekw-1 in Indo-European roots).]
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desig·native, desig·na·tory (-n-tôr) adj.
desig·nator n.
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Posted By: Save the West @ 07/14/2009 9:00:11 AM
LOL! Hey - YOU asserted that we are wrong, so I just asserted back!
Also, I've got PLENTY of "facts," it's just that your ignorance bores me so much I can't find the wherewithal to reply more substantively. Right - I wouldn't brag about your alleged degree, especially as it relates to Islam.-
Posted By: Vigilance @ 07/16/2009 1:51:31 PM
I suspect your experience with Muslims is secondhand. I don't know for sure, of course, but most people I know who have known Muslims - especially Americanized or European-assimilated Muslims - understand that a lot of the stereotypes are not true and apply to a small subset of the population, with most people misrepresented.
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Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/16/2009 12:02:17 PM
Still waiting on your "facts"
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Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/14/2009 1:01:32 PM
Well, let's see your collection of "facts," because the point I was making earlier is that the idea that the Muslim world was thoroughly violent and bararic throughout history is simply untrue. In reality, the Muslim world was more civilized than Christian Europe during the Middle Ages. Baghdad, home of the Abbasid caliphate during the 8th and 9th century, was a world reknowned center of learning and, at one point, the largest city in the world. Between the 7th and the 16th centuries, Muslims scholars were responsible for a "golden age" of scientific, mathematic and philosophic learning and study, which is fortunate for us; most of what we know about the Ancients comes to us through manuscripts translated into Arabic and preserved by Muslims.
As for Muslims' reputed savagery regarding conquered people, let's not forget that during the Middle Ages, Muslims ruled Spain and were very tolerant of Jews - there was no legislation preventing Jews from practicing their religion or taking part in Muslim society. In addition, while there were occassional flare-ups of anti-semitism during this period, it is essential to remember that when Christians retook the Iberian peninsula, Jews fled to the Muslim Ottoman Empire rather than stay. In addition, it was the Christian King Ferdinand who promulgated the Edict of Explusion, forcing Jews out of Spain. In short, the Muslim world has had periods of tolerance AS WELL as periods of persecution, just like the West.
In the modern world, the second largest concentration of Jews in the Middle East is in Iran! These Jews have a seat in Iran's parliament and 11 synagogues in Tehran. According to Iran's constitution, Jews are legally equal to Muslims, and when various Israeli and Jewish organizations offered to pay to resettle Iran's Jews in Israel or the U.S., they refused! Clearly, while Iran is far from a model of religious tolerance or constitutional democracy, the 25,000 Jews living there do not feel as though their Persian Muslim neighbors are a threat.
In sum, my point is that the image of the Muslim world you have created - bloodthirsty, barabric, and completely opposed to western values - is overly simple and not true. While there have been times and places where Muslims have been blood thirsty and barbaric, it is equally true that there have been times and places where they have been tolerant and sophisticated.
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Posted By: Lee Holmes @ 07/17/2009 4:08:25 PM
You forget that what we are witnessing is a reversal. It becomes Christianized nations that become more secular and advanced, while the Islamic is in retrograde. For far too long, the richness of the commodity of oil was all that was needed in order to perform false continuums of social ''advancment'' with the especially Arabic Islamic relying upon western made arms, technology, sciences, medicine, and economic/banking systems in order to thrive. Indeed, such areas as The Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Quatar, Kuwait, UAR, and Bahrain are almost completely western-made in all aspects save the tying of religion to the politic. These immigrants to Europe and the US look to see such a condition furthered, by garnering the best of what the West has to offer in speech and religious/ethnic freedoms while retaining an increasingly backwards vision of what constitutes Islam. Ironically enough, liberalized thinkers who have real problems with the marriage of ''church and state'' leave their qualms at the door when confronting the patent reality of life under the state and the mosque, intertwined, as we readily see in the tragedy that is Iran. [and this, a Shia, rather than a Sunni form of that religion]. Bad news either way you go.
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Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/17/2009 10:23:27 PM
Interesting point. On the other hand, perhaps immigrants are leaving those countries because they feel oppressed by the tight marriage of church and state and are looking for a more secular environment. I've seen no evidence to demonstrate that a significant number of Muslim immigrants are attempting to subvert the governments or societies where they have moved.
What seems to be lost in all this hysteria is that, so far, Muslim immigrants have made little effort to impose themselves on their native countries. Muslims didn't try to force non-Muslims to wear veils in France; instead, it was France's secular government that tried to prevent Muslim women from wearing the veil.
Though we seem to disagree, I liked your post - it was thoughtful and provocative.
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Posted By: Save the West @ 07/12/2009 8:51:04 PM
William Underhill said: "The truth is that there are no powerful Muslim
political movements in Europe"
There most certainly is - It is called Islam.
Exactly. Mr. Underhill, Islam is less a religion, and much more a political ideology. As you might know, there is no separation of church and state in Islam. Islam is a total belief system, encompassing every aspect of an individual's life, much like Fascism and Nazism.
Islam - the only "political movement" Muslims need or want. I hope you have been reading these comments, Mr. Underhill, because as another Commenter said you are incredibly naive, as well as ignorant, about the belief system/political ideology called Islam.
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Posted By: reasonandlogic @ 07/12/2009 12:03:22 AM
An Islamic take-over is indeed worrying - not economically, but culturally and for safety reasons for non-muslims. Your article fails to mention that in Islam their Holy Book is the only source of law, thus in Sharia law one of the the proclaimed sura in the Koran which is sura 9:29 says: Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah[] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
As a Christian I will be fought till I pay jizya tax or feel subdued by whatever they feel fit.-
Posted By: leohugh @ 07/31/2009 8:33:58 AM
Some of the great laws of Sharia, this is what the Muhammadans are trying to impose on non-moslem populations around the world.
* A woman is eligible for only half the inheritance of a man.
* A virgin may be married against her will by her father or grandfather.
* A woman may not leave the house without her husband???s permission.
* A Muslim man may marry four women, including Christians and Jews; a Muslim woman can only marry a Muslim.
* Beating an insubordinate wife is permissible.
* Adultery [or the perception of adultery] is punished by death by stoning.
* Offensive, military jihad against non-Muslims is a religious obligation.
* Apostasy from Islam is punishable by death without trial.
* Lying to infidels in time of jihad is permissible.
* Homosexuality is illegal. Gays have to be put to death
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Posted By: Stephen Gash @ 07/12/2009 12:46:38 PM
Wherever Muslims form the majority they persecute non-Muslims. In Egypt Copts are being persecuted, even to the extent that all 330,000 pigs in Egypt have been slaughtered in the most barbaric ways, being buried alive, bathed in acid and battered to death. This for the sole purpose of depriving Christian Copts from one of their main food sources.
In Indonesia planation of Muslims in New Guinea to displace non-Muslims is going on apace, and 70,000 Christians have been displaced. In the Philippines Muslims have burnt whole Christian villages to the ground in Mindaneo. In southern Thailand over 3,500 non-Muslims have been murdered by Muslims over the last eight years.
The Lebanon once had a Christian majority, but now Christians comprise less than 25% of the population.
All this is unreported.
Muslims want to take over the world and are actively working to that end with the connivance of Western politicians and media. Anybody who denies this is a Muslim practising taqiiya or a stupid non-Muslim. Before 7/7 60% of Muslims in Britain wanted sharia law in Britain. After 7/7 the figure dropped to 40%, the lost 20% reverting to taqiyya.
Stop immigration into the West from Islamic countries and repatriate those already here.-
Posted By: leohugh @ 07/31/2009 8:24:29 AM
let me add to that Islam truely a religion of peaces
In Egypt the howling Muslim mobs destroy Christian churches; Muslim men kidnap and rape Coptic girls. In Pakistan the Muslims threaten and attack and sometimes kill the Christians and the Sikhs and the Hindus; Muslim men snatch and rape and forcibly 'convert' young Hindu and Christian girls, and the Pakistani Muslim authorities side with the evil Muslim kidnappers and flatly refuse to help the distraught families who are trying to rescue their kidnapped and raped daughters. Muslims tell them that if they don't pay the jizya, the 'protection' money, they will be murdered.
In the Philippines Muslim jihad gangs attack peaceful Catholic villages and shoot unarmed people and cut off the heads of middle-aged farmers.
In Thailand the Muslims shoot elderly Buddhist monks and rake a crowd in a Buddhist temple with gunfire and shoot pregnant schoolteachers and seize an unarmed man and stab him and cut off his head and cut off his arms and legs and impale his head on a shovel and leave the arms and legs next to it and then set fire to what's left of his dishonoured, desecrated corpse.
In Mumbai the jihadists murder non-Muslims and let the Muslims go; and they take a Jewish rabbi and his pregnant wife and slowly, cruelly, fiendishly torture them to death.
In Indonesia Muslim men pounce on two little Christian schoolgirls walking to school AND CUT OFF THEIR HEADS.
In Nigeria Muslim mobs burn churches and throw rocks at Christians.
In Sudan Christians were enslaved, gang-raped, robbed, murdered in the thousands by allahu-akbaring Muslim jiahadis.
I forget Darfur black muslim brothers enslaved, gang-raped, robbed, murdered.
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Posted By: Tan Boon Tee @ 07/13/2009 4:02:12 AM
Ever since 911, the West has a tendency to view the Islamic world with a tinted pair of glasses. As such, when compounded with naïve preconceptions, everything goes wrong. It is time to think objectively and clearly ??? still not late (in fact better late than NEVER).
Make peace, not war. Make friends, not enemies. PLEASE.
(btt1943@yahoo.com)-
Posted By: Save the West @ 07/13/2009 9:08:20 AM
Are you for real? You're as ignorant as Underhill.
Here's a little verse about "friendship" from the Qur'an for you:
"O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." - Qur'an 5:51
Got that?
Next, here's a little verse about war from the Qur'an for you:
"Fight and kill the Disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war." - Qur'an 9:5
Got that?
Now, who's wearing the "tinted glasses?" YOU. You and Underhill. Happily, most of the Commenters here are seeing Islam and it's doctrines of Jihad and Islamic Supremacism with clear, 20/20 vision.
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Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/13/2009 4:32:17 PM
How about these nuggets from the Bible:
Matthew 10: 34-36
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword."
"I say to you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. As for my enemies who do not want me to reign over them, bring them here and kill them in my presence" (Luke 19:26-27).
As any freshman English major knows, both the Quran and the Bible have passages that can be used to justify any author's point of view. Islam has by no means cornered the market on violent imagery.-
Posted By: newsweekis bullshit @ 07/31/2009 7:37:19 AM
gus-dick-suckin, or what ever you call yourself. are you actually so retarded to believe that quoting violence from the bible makes the subhuman filth of islam any more acceptable? plz dont have any children;we need to stop the gene pool contamination from creatures like you.
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Posted By: piggypuffs @ 07/30/2009 1:05:29 PM
Yeah, nothing to worry about.
- office workers in New York (twice)
- defense workers in Washington
- airports in Scotland
- embassy workers in Tanzania
- free speech at the U.N.
- Universal Declaration of Human Rights at the U.N.
- free speech in Canada
- Jewish centers in Toronto,Seattle & Argentina
- Dutch politicians Geert Wilders & Ayaan Hirsi Ali (death fatwa)
- Dutch cartoonists (death fatwa)
- novelist Salman Rushdie (death fatwa)
- Dutch cinematographer Theo vanGogh (brutally slaughtered)
- journalist Daniel Pearl (beheaded)
- aid worker Nick Berg (decapitated)
- Polish engineer Piotr Stanczyk (kidnapped & decapitated after refusing to convert to Islam)
- S. Korean Kim Sun-Il (beheaded)
- women in Australia (Islamic rape gangs)
- women in Sweden (Islamic rape gangs)
- cafe patrons in Hindu Bali (blown up, twice)
- civilians in Israel (suicide bombings, indiscriminate rocket attacks)
- Catholics in the Philippines
- Buddhists in Thailand
- Christians in Indonesia
- Hindus in India
- Jews in Mumbai
- Buddhists in Afghanistan
- Zoroastrians in Iran
- Baha'i in Iran
- Chaldean Crhistians in Iraq
- Jews in Israel
- Coptic Christians in Egypt
- Jews in Yemen
- Christians in north Nigeria
- Christians in Zanzibar
- Christians & animists in Sudan
- Athiests in Europe
- school children in Beslan, Russia
- Christian school girls in Indonesia (beheaded)
- native French in Paris
- native Dutch in the Netherlands
- native Swedes in Malmo
- train commuters in Spain
- tube commuters in London
- Olympic athletes in Munich-
Posted By: leohugh @ 07/31/2009 7:19:17 AM
Piggypuffs, Thats quite a collection,You have got most of them. Islam is the religion of peaces.
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Posted By: Save the West @ 07/30/2009 5:09:39 PM
The Newsweek Dhimmis (Slaves-to-Islam) are too afraid to fight back against the Islamic Barbarians because here's their punishment:
Qur'an 5:33: "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.
LOL! Cowardly Slaves-to-Islam Newsweek! Too afraid to fight back against the Islamic Barbarians!
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Posted By: Save the West @ 07/30/2009 9:44:10 AM
What is the deal with the question marks (see below)? Why does my quotation have question marks instead of quotation marks? Can someone please explain?
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Posted By: roxn @ 07/30/2009 2:52:27 PM
Its a soothing article - many of the Muslim immigrants to Britain were moderate as well - and their children have become radicalised in the last few years. What the Europeans are saying - is that Islam has changed in Europe for the worst - in the UK, France and Holland Muslim women never wore all black or burqa - these women - from diverse groups such as Somalia, Turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh have abandoned their traditional clothing - for the standard Middle East Arab dress. Along with this there are frequent calls for Islamic Shari'a law - which most of us prior to 10 years ago never knew existed. We are being told in no uncertain terms that in a few years they are going to take over our countries. There is no other immigrant group who behaves like this.
The immigration policies in Europe - are going to mean that we in Europe have less to worry about. With Muslim populations growing - they are able to apply pressure on Left wing governments/ politicians - and frighteningly - some particularly in Holland are giving into this pressure - several things are influencing this - the fear of Muslim reprisals - the violence - here we have politicians, artists, and writers under police protection because of the threat of Muslim attacks. In addition as to not offend Muslims - human rights and freedoms of the wider population are being pushed aside. There is something called Christian discrimination. One foster mother had all her children removed and her licence revoked - because a 16 year old Muslim girl in her care converted to Christianity. The girls was abused by her father and simply didn't have a desire to be Muslim any more - and although the carer tried to discourage her - she insisted he wanted to convert. Though for the local authority the aim was not to offend Muslims - and Islamic law seems to be given preference over religious and individual rights - that is that it is illegal to leave Islam. Muslims in Europe are regularly attacked when trying to leave Islam - marrying outside of their families is another reason they can find they are attacked by other Muslims. The slant towards Shari'a could mean they would be the worst affected.
Anther reason - politicians might give in to Islamic/Islamist demands over the rights of others - is to not look racist - and radical/ Islamist Muslims see this as a way get Shari'a law. Either to have it recognised in European court of law or to establish enclaves where Muslims can govern themselves. In January of this year a Muslim politician - who the Dutch believed to be a great example of Islam and democracy - proposed the setting up an Islamic or Muslim only state near Rotterdam. He also asked prior to this that Islam be taught in all schools in Holland.
Birth Rates Not Whole Story
The birth rates are deceiving - because what Muslims have been doing in Europe - and will likely start to do in America with increased immigration from Africa and the ME - is that every time they want to marry - they have-
Posted By: roxn @ 07/30/2009 2:53:51 PM
Part 2
Birth Rates Not Whole Story
The birth rates are deceiving - because what Muslims have been doing in Europe - and will likely start to do in America with increased immigration from Africa and the ME - is that every time they want to marry - they have to arrange for a husband or wife to be brought from the Islamic world - their country of origin - which is done generation after generation - with every child. In a sense one person - who imports their spouse and then imports spouses for each of their three children - that one person now becomes eight people - hence the immigration problem - because it is unsustainable. Many live on social assistance or through state benefits - and it is simply unfair and unrealistic - to allow these practise to continue unchecked.
In one study in Northern Europe - Denmark or Sweden - 1000 Turkish immigrants turned into 20,000 in 20 years. Not through birthrates but through marriages - some men divorcing and marrying two or three times each time an import spouse. Denmark at least has placed serious restrictions on these marriages in 2002 - where the person has to be over 24 years and the new partner has to have some connection with that country. And they find that the Muslim immigrants are adjusting better. Prior to this it was costing them around $1.5 billion a year. The new people often don't have education or language.
Europe is Deciding Its Future
By shifting to the right Europe is taking some control of its destiny. For many Europeans the changes are apparent - 40% of British Muslims want Islamic law - and the Left's (in some cases is even worrying secular Muslims) attempts to appease Islamic demands and keep to their sensitivities. People are saying this is Europe, we shouldn't have to ask Muslims first before we do something - whether it offends Muslim sensitivities or not. We are saying this is Europe and if you don't like it leave. Muslims shouldn't be so protected by political correctness that they believe that one day - Europe will be Islamic. Europe will not become Egypt where Muslim demands are given priority over all and Christian Copts (once a majority) and others live as second class citizens - under the Shari'a. Either we live in a free country or we live in an Islamic one - and Europe is choosing freedom.
The US population is less than 1% Muslims and many of them were former Christians - or westernised Muslims. I don't hear too many loud calls calling for Islamic Shari'a law here.
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Posted By: Save the West @ 07/30/2009 9:40:28 AM
UNDERHILL AND NEWSWEEK: The below (out of the mouth of a Muslim) is happening RIGHT NOW:
???One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.???
??? Houari (Mohamed) Boumedienne, President of Algeria, 1965 ??? 1978, in a 1974 speech at the UN
Hello! Any neurons firing at Newsweek? You people would have denied that Hitler posed a threat.
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Posted By: Gergiev @ 07/24/2009 2:46:21 PM
One aspect of the problem which has been ignored by Mr Underhill and others is western Europe's complicity in its own potential demise. Bureaucracies and academia bend over backwards to accommodate "Islamism" even if that is not what the vast majority of muslim immigrants want. There is a self-abnegating attitude among the western european elite which leads it to despise its own cultural values and history in favour of that of the "other". Look at the Archbishop of Canterbury who seems more interested in promoting Sharia Law than Anglicanism, the plethora of Islamic studies courses at western universities while Christianity in many Muslim countries is severely restricted or even banned all together; the encouragement of Islamic finance, the adoption of language like "Islamophobia" and so on. This cultural, spiritual, and intellectual weakness is perceived by the "Islamists" and is seized upon by them to promote attitudes that most Muslims may very well not support. But given that Islam is an all-encompassing system that knows no distinction between the spiritual and the secular the islamic leadership carries an influence that outweighs its size: look at Iran.
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Posted By: Arch Man @ 07/22/2009 10:40:45 PM
Pakistan's 'mock war' on Taliban- Amanda Hodge, Peshawar | July 23, 2009
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25821004-2703,00.html
Another frustrating aspect is the perennial dishonesty with which some islamic govts run their administrations in the face of grave ground reality. The above article published by Australian illustrates under what disguise the entire civil administration milks the fat cow USA. Obama and democrat led senate want to bribe the Pak administration into eliminating AfPak based terror. Not so fast say the Pakistanis. Money and american lives are spent exponentially in that snake pit all because of dishonest brokers of peace who have scant disregard for honor and word. Big deal.Yap. Whats wrong in lying to infidels anyway.
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Posted By: stevebronfman @ 07/20/2009 7:15:21 AM
Gusdicksin; Cyprus in 1974, Sudan, theres many examples actually. Morocco occupies Western Sahara. Kosovo is occupied by Albanians its actually a pretty long list I could go on and on. Its true most Muslim occupations eg Kurdistan, Berbers etc involve Arabs occupying another Muslim people but there are many examples of Muslims occupying non-Muslim countries. Historically there Turks occupied the Byzantine Empire and the Balkins. Muslims occupied India, Spain and many other countries too.
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Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/20/2009 7:15:43 PM
The Turkish "invasion" of Cypress was provoked by Greek-backed military coup that was designed to pave the way for Greece to annex Cypress. This was hardly an example of "Islamic imperialism," and both the U.S. and NATO supported the Turkish response.
Sudan's country is between 75 and 80% Muslim. I think what you are referring to is Sudan's second Civil War, during which the government tried to "Islamize" the minority non-Muslim population. This is not an example of Muslims invading another country; rather, it is an example of a Muslim government trying to religious cleanse itself of minorities creeds. Obviously, this happened, and it demonstrates something that I have mentioned (many times) before: Muslim governments can be intolerant of minorities but they can also be tolerant as well.
Again, you bring up some interesting examples, but doing so only strengthens my main point: namely, that not all Muslims act a specific way. Some are peaceful, some are not; some are barbaric, some are sophisticated.-
Posted By: stevebronfman @ 07/21/2009 9:53:16 AM
The point isn't that individual muslims are diverse, the point is that Islamist ideology espoused by all schools of orthodox Islam seeks to take of the world by violence. Islam divides the world into the country of peace (islamic countries) and the country of war (everybody else) and its the duty of Muslims to spread Islam to the "country of war" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_the_world_in_Islam
Every Islamic country today (with the possible exceptions of Indonesia/Malaysia) were colonised through violence as Muslim armies spead from arabia through the near east, north africa and into Asia, Central Asia and India etc. If Muslims haven't taken over (m)any countries recently its not through lack of trying. Indeed its only because the west gained the upper hand through technology and managed to take back the balkans etc from Muslim occupation. Indeed at almost every border between Islam and another country there is now violent war eg, china (uighurs) , philliphines, Thailand, Kashmir, Southern Russia, Sudan etc etc You're whole premise is flawed and can be proven incorrect. Please see www.thereligionofpeace.com/ for a breakdown of Muslim wars and terrorists acts recently (over 13,000 since 911)-
Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/22/2009 2:50:10 AM
I looked at your site, thereligionofpeace.com. The "terror" attacks portion of the website is incredibly misleading; it is a record of every time a Muslim (we assume - there's often no proof) commits some act of terror. However, many (me among them) would argue that not all violent acts are religious in nature - attacks by Palestinians against Israelis or Iraqis against Americans, while deplorable, are more likely motivated by nationalism rather than religion. Yes, in this region, the two often go hand-in-hand, but it's not enough to say "A Muslim committed murder, so it must have been religiously motivated" any more than it's enough to say that about a Christian or a Jew. The world is just a little more complicated than that.
As for the site, its editor - Glen Reinsford - has some pretty extreme opinions that border on bigotry. His previous website was booted from its host after allegations of racism. I've attached an archived link to let you judge for yourself. http://web.archive.org/web/20070304120840/cairbaby.com/
As for your other examples, i think my point holds: namely, just because you have Muslims fighting doesn't necessarily mean you have a religious war. Take for instance the Soviet experience in Central Asia in the 1930s and 1940s. The USSR more or less absorbed Uzbekistan into its orbit in 1924. At that time, for the first time in modern history, Uzbeki women BEGAN wearing veils as a subtle expression of nationalism and resistance to Soviet restructuring of Uzbeki society.
The larger point is that, just as not all Muslims are created the same, not all acts of Muslim violence are created the same. Some are motivated by religion but others are motivated by nationalism or a host of other issues. Just as the "troubles" in Northern Ireland was not just about religion, explosions of violence in the Muslim world is not just about religion.
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Posted By: Arch Man @ 07/18/2009 5:38:11 PM
The fact of the matter is that muslims failed to modernize their religion. Their leaders those who believe in violence and oppression against others and their own. Since the expectations of nonmuslims for muslims to become peaceful and nonviolent were never met, what is the collective future course. Looks like along with RUSSIA AND US even china seems to feel the heat now from islamists. A global dialogue say in the UN is needed. A white paper on islamic violence perhaps.
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Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/18/2009 11:03:59 PM
What does it mean to "modernize" a religion? I would argue that the Catholic Church's positions on women, birth control and a whole host of other issues could be called pre-modern. Islam is a very big and diverse religion and there are many competing interpretations. Some, but not all, are pre-modern, but the same thing can be said of Christianity (the Amish) and Judaism (Hasidism). Islam hasn't cornered the market on goofy people doing goofy things because God told them too; fundamentalism and fanaticism occur in other religions as well.
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Posted By: stevebronfman @ 07/21/2009 10:05:53 AM
Again the difference is you're examples are tiny sects whereas Wahabism etc are dominant forces within Islam.
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Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/22/2009 2:26:08 AM
t's hard to quantify what percentage of Sunnis are actually wahabbists outside of the Middle East, though it appears quite low: Hamid Alghar, in Wahhabism: a Critical Essay, asserted that Wahhabism claimed no more than 10% of Muslim worldwide. Wahhabism has failed to attract many adherents in Southeast Asia, a region that houses the largest concentration of Muslims. In other words, there is little evidence to support your assertion that most Muslims are Wahabbis.
Even granting, for the sake of argument that you are correct (and the evidence is not on your side), adherents of Wahhabism make up approximately 25% of Muslims in the United States, according to the NY Times (Oct 20, 2001). In addition, even if 100% of Sunnis adhered to Wahabbism (given that Wahabbism is a Sunni doctrine), that would leave a sizable minority in the Muslim world that is not Wahabbi (Shia Muslims). What this does is strengthen my arguments that:
1.) The Muslim world is NOT monolithic. There is a great deal of diversity among Muslims and a "one-size-fits-all" approach is doomed to fail.
2.) We are in no danger of being "taken over" by Muslims or Islam. Muslims make up somewhere between 2.2 and .5% of America's citizens. 1 in 4 (between .55% and and .125%) adhere to SOME FORM of Wahabbism. Contrast that with the fact that Christians make up 76% of American citizens, and of that, 38% (according to an ADL poll) believed U.S. Courts had gone "too far" in protecting the separation of Church and State.
In other words, we're got a far bigger problem when it comes to American values than Muslims outbreeding "us."
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Posted By: kazachok @ 07/13/2009 2:51:26 PM
My home town in Southern Russia is overtaken by Muslim scum. Our women can't even walk down the street without being harassed by these bastards. And there is nothing we can do about it anymore, since they are majority and they are breeding at an alarming rate. My cousin was stubbed in the abdomen while trying to protect a woman in his own cafe, and he didn't even press any charges for the fear of further trouble. We do know what to do to fix the problem, and we can be very good at it, but our government has gone soft under pressure from the Western liberastic democracies to be "civilized" just like them. Pity! As for Europe and U.S., it is your karma to eat s*^t from the hands of you Muslim friends. And when you do, just think "Serbia", "Kosovo".
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Posted By: Save the West @ 07/15/2009 4:46:55 PM
Posted By: kazachok @ 07/13/2009 2:51:26 PM
"My home town in Southern Russia is overtaken by Muslim scum. Our women can't even walk down the street without being harassed by these bastards. And there is nothing we can do about it anymore, since they are majority and they are breeding at an alarming rate."
Exactly - the two-fold problem is the polygamous mass-breeding Mohammedans, and their allegiance to a Hate/Kill/Uber-Misogyny 7th century AD political ideology called "Islam," made-up by Con Man Mohamet for personal power and material gain. What are we going to do about it? They're breeding "Muhammed's" and "Abdullah"s" every-other-second. As with Poitiers in 732, and Vienna, in 1683, we must save our less-breeding (civilized) Western civilization from the Islamic Barbarians. A Mohammedan "Demographic Jihad" is taking place in Europe RIGHT NOW, and we must stop it.-
Posted By: Arch Man @ 07/21/2009 11:04:55 AM
The world has come to the realization that sustained force is the backbone of jihadi mission. They subjugate moderate and liberal muslims first. Then the go after the nonmuslims. Persecution from every angle will force nonmuslims either leave the town or convert to Islam. That explain why the nonmuslim populations shrink in muslim nations in a surprisingly short time.
With larger nations being drawn into the arena, eg., china now and in recent past USA and Russia, a collective global effort will be soon underway to tame the monster. In near future religious persecution will be more and more discussed on international forums. Needless to say not only nonmuslims even muslims suffer at the hands of fundamentalists. However, it is the silent majority muslims who should help eliminate the militancy largely.
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Posted By: Trooper101st @ 07/16/2009 8:20:46 AM
Yeah, ur right my friend. We bombed the WRONG people. We should have let the Serbs do thier thing. After all, it IS thier land. We are in a war of civilizations, religion, but not very many want to admit it. I hope you will avenge ur brother and cleanse ur land. As a US Soldier who participated in Bosnia/Kosovo, I felt one day this would bite us in the azz. Well, it has. I can say with certainty we have captured Bosnian moslems fighting AGAINST the Army that saved them. NEVER AGAIN, Christians WAKE UP!!!
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Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/18/2009 1:22:08 AM
And this, my friends, is why the civilians and not the military make decisions.
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Posted By: stevebronfman @ 07/19/2009 10:51:17 PM
The Newsweek article does nothing to diminish the arguments of many worried about Muslim demographic takeover in Europe (already many Dutch and English Cities are majority Muslim for instance). It states that Muslim demographics will decline because ???immigration to (won???t) continue at a pace that???s now politically unacceptable.??? In other words the author is basing his thesis on current immigration patterns ceasing. What evidence does he have for immigration from Muslim societies to decrease besides a vague notion that it would be politically unacceptable? Isn???t it only unacceptable because of the very people he???s actually arguing against. If the author wins this argument then current immigration trends will continue. This is an idiotic argument based on his only speculation and not on evidence.
Also, he states that ???fertility rates are edging upward in some Northern European countries,??? Yes, in precisely those countries with mass Muslim immigration such as Sweden. They???re only increasing because of Muslim demographic increase and not because ???White Christians??? are suddenly having more children. The authors whole argument is based on fallacy.
His other arguments are similarly misguided and not based on evidence. For instance, Shites only make up around 10% of Muslims worldwide and mainly in Iran and Lebanon. The overwhelming majority of European Muslims are Sunni even if 10% of Turkish Muslims are Alavis etc etc. The point is that what does link all Muslims despite national background together is Islam. Political Islamist ideology calls for a global caliphate. What surveys or evidence does he have for making sweeping generalisations such as; ???A second-generation Muslim from Turkey living in Germany will have little in common with a newly arrived Moroccan across the border in Belgium???? I would argue that because Islam (unlike Christianity) is a total belief system (eg prayer 5 times a day, eating only Halal food, Sharia law, different financial system for loans etc) that actually these two people have a lot in common.-
Posted By: LyndonApGwynfryn @ 07/20/2009 4:56:26 PM
Come on then Steve, don't be shy, name some of these English cities with a muslim majority....
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Posted By: stevebronfman @ 07/21/2009 10:04:39 AM
Harehills, Savile Town etc
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Posted By: Arch Man @ 07/20/2009 4:35:08 PM
@Gusdicksin
is there any nation that the muslims, living as a minority, are not persecuted in contemporary global scenario-
Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/20/2009 7:02:30 PM
Quite a few - do you want a list?
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Posted By: Arch Man @ 07/20/2009 7:59:00 PM
1. Yes
2. also, Provide a subset list of the nonmuslim nations that are rated as better and freer than islamic countries for muslims ( opinions by muslims only)-
Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/20/2009 8:44:25 PM
What is the the purpose if I concede that there are cities in the world where Muslims are not persecuted? I don't understand what you are driving at.
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Posted By: Arch Man @ 07/20/2009 7:04:58 PM
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25810389-7583,00.html
Jihad in the classroom Sally Neighbour | July 21, 2009
Article from: The Australian
INDONESIA will continue to live with the threat of terror attacks unless its government cracks down on the militant Islamic schools and religious zealots who espouse worldwide jihad.
I visited the Ngruki school in 2002 after the Bali bombings and again last year. In 2002 the principal had a portrait of Osama bin Laden on his door, and an ABC TV crew filmed a classroom in which childish drawings of bombs and sticks of dynamite were scrawled on a blackboard. At a mosque nearby we witnessed the now famous sermon by Abu Bakar Bashir: "Between you and us there will forever be a ravine of hate and we will be enemies until you follow Allah's law."
By 2008 little had changed, except that the school has expanded over the years.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25812282-601,00.html
THE AUSTRALIAN Mumbai suspect admits his guilt
In his statement last night, Kasab gave details of his group's boat journey from Pakistan, their landing in Mumbai and the rampage that followed as the gunmen shot and killed people at the railway station, a Jewish centre and two five-star hotels, including the Taj Mahal.
"I was firing and Abu was hurling hand grenades," he told the court.
Arch Man writes- Islamic terrorism has a global network and the religious schools are the outlets of the same. Monies come from US, Europe, middle East and others.There is a long and hard war that should be fought. People who dont understand the concept of global war on terror are indirectly or rather passively allowing this monster to grow exponentially.People will blow up innocent civilians all over the world.One needs to understand that the underlying brainwashing program, in the name of religion, of younmen that provides strength to this monster.The said religion has unfortunately failed to stop terror in the tracks, instead provided a scaffold on which terror is built upon.-
Posted By: gusdicksin @ 07/20/2009 7:18:36 PM
One example from a school in Australia doesn't prove that EVERY, or even MOST, Muslim schools are terrorist factories. We can't just shut down EVERY Muslim school because SOME of them preach hate. You need to get evidence that this is going on on each school that you want to shut down.
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