just had to drop by....I TOLD Y'ALL...and HR is never wrong.
Brown declared winner...
ObamaCare is Dead Like Ted!!!!
‘The Cause of My Life’
Inside the fight for universal health care.
Published Jul 18, 2009
From the magazine issue dated Jul 27, 2009
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Posted By: HolyRoller @ 01/19/2010 9:55:51 PM
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/25/2009 5:28:53 PM
Things stupid or ignorant (take your choice) people believe:
1. The myth that the U.S. has the best health care system on earth.
Maybe it's true IF you can afford it. As it is, if you get cancer you WILL be wiped out financially if you are not already a billionaire.
2. The myth that America is the most advanced nation on earth.
That might have been true back in the early 1960s when the rest of he world was still digging out of the rubble from World War II, but while we have been spending more than the rest of the world combined on weapons, the other nations of the world have been investing in infrastructure, public transportation, education and health care. The U.S. is now way behind the rest of the modern world in educational achievement, energy efficiency and health care outcome.
3. The myth that America stands for freedom around the world.
Over the last eight years the world has witnessed our ready willingness to surrender our own rights here at home just because we were attacked by 19 guys with box cutters.
They have also witnessed our willingness to sell our souls and torture our fellow human beings for the mere illusion of safety.
When the world visualizes a military kicking down doors, they inevitably see an American flag patch on the shoulder of a pink faced, corn fed, Nebraska boy screaming at some frightened Iraqi woman who doesnt understand a word of English or why her husband is lying dead on the floor of their home.
When the rest of the world visualizes the overthrow of a democratically elected government they rightfully think of the CIA working on behalf of some American economic interest that didn't find that elected government sufficiently corrupt and compliant.
4. The myth that if you don't believe the myths above you are unpatriotic.
It takes willful ignorance, the kind of ignorance that requires energy to maintain, to believe the myths above. Patriotism should not require such willful ignorance. It is possible to love you country and recognize that we have and are continuing to disgrace ourselves in the eyes of the rest of the world. Many of us simply grieve the loss of the America we once believed COULD could have been the light of the world.
You see we all believed the greater myth of American Exceptualism, but it turns out we are as easily frightened and as easily corrupted as any other people on earth. If we demonstrate any exceptional traits these days its our conspicuous lack of compassion and justice. When we demonstrate that we are too selfish to even consider helping each other fend off the arbitrary ravages of physical illness, we are once again proving that we dont deserve the leadership of the free world or the right to instruct anybody else on this planet about freedom or morality. We may be great at dishing out ordinance but we dont seem to be morally capable of taking care of our own.-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/25/2009 6:04:51 PM
Your entire post is unsubstantiated opinion and therefore a myth.
"Over the last eight years the world has witnessed our ready willingness to surrender our own rights here at home just because we were attacked by 19 guys with box cutters."
Your laughable 9/11 quote minimizes that tragedy. We haven't surrendered anything.
"They have also witnessed our willingness to sell our souls and torture our fellow human beings for the mere illusion of safety"
We waterboarded three murderers and obtained information that stopped planned attacks. Quit sobbing for the maniacs that want to kill you.
Yes, we had a reason, especially the people in New York, to be frightend of an enemy that would fly jets into buildings and kill three thousand innocent people. Have a talk with the surviving relatives before you speak for them. (as you Libs so often love doing). You don't speak for them or the rest of us.
Actually, it takes willful ignorance, the kind of ignorance that you display here to maintain the arrogant, America despising attitude you have.
Just like your buddy here... America is just plain stupid. Try to stop whining, griping and bitching long enough to find some real answers. Until you do, you're nothing more than a big part of the problem.-
Posted By: Fernadez @ 08/27/2009 9:47:25 AM
The RIGHT just wants to have LESS REGULATIONS BEFORE,Now on Health-Care !,No Government Involvement in everything,They treasures the freedom of Everything,you name it,free speech,2nd amendement ,etc.....But wait a minutes does that what the LiberaL values that they accussed /rants all the time???
I doesn't know now which party are being too Conservative and who're being too Liberal anymore ? -
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/27/2009 2:40:58 AM
"We waterboarded three murderers and obtained information that stopped planned attacks. Quit sobbing for the maniacs that want to kill you."
There is of course no proof that we tortured the right guys or that we extracted any useful information beyond the word of Dick Cheney who has been caught in so many lies that he cant be trusted to tell the truth... unless we can waterboard him of course. The fact is we dont know just how many people have been tortured and killed in our network of secret prisons around the world.
Aside from the fact that experts tell us torture only makes prisoners tell us what they think we want to hear, its also against the law. Our courts have held that these prisoners either have to be declared prisoners of war entitled to the treatment deliniated by the Geneva Convention OR that they be tried as crimminals in our courts entitled to the protections of the US Constitution and or the UCMJ . So if you believe America SHOULD be a nation of laws and SHOULD occupy the moral high ground, disgracing ourselves and our flag is not the way to get there.
You see living free requires that you take on the risk associated with extending the rights you expect for yourself to EVERYBODY else. In the end there is no land of the free that isnt also the home of the brave.
As a veteran who went to war for this country I have a particular interest in seeing that my brothers in arms who lost their lives defending our constitution have their sacrifices honored by you living up to your end of the deal. As it is you are the perfect example of what we call cowardice under fire. With the first sign of trouble you and your chicken hawk president Dick Cheney threw the Constitution we fought for into the crapper.-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/27/2009 8:48:28 AM
Freecitizen, Every point you made in your post is either inaccurate or your hate-based, unsubstantiated opinion about Bush and Cheney. Waterboarding is not torture. Our military personnel go through waterboarding in training, so it not torture and it is not illegal. We don't torture our own people! They, like the three monsters you wish to pamper, were fine immediately afterward. Yes, waterboarding garnered the information we needed. That has been proven as we have not been attacked in eight years. in your response, please leave out the usual and inane "they just haven't wanted to" nonsense.
The CIA learned that Osama Bin Laden financed the attacks on 9/11, and that they were organized and carried out by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. We also learned that Mohammed murdered Daniel Pearl. He made this statement after his arrest: "I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew, Daniel Pearl, in the city of Karachi, Pakistan. For those who would like to confirm, there are pictures of me on the Internet holding his head."
Nice guy. The CIA also learned of over 30 planned al qaeda attacks on America, which fortunately were thwarted and never carried out. You can also drop the Geneva Convention rules. These monsters do not belong to any military force. They are terrorist criminals and nothing more. They do not fall under Geneva Convention parameters.
You libs and your hate accusations about Bush and Cheney - None of you have ever had one shred of credible evidence that "Bush and Cheney lied", you just "know in your heart" they did. If you ever do come up with any credible, non-biased links proving otherwise, post it here and we'll all be happy to look at it. Until then, your hate filled, unsubstantiated conspiracy rants will be viewed as just that.
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Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/27/2009 11:50:51 AM
"Waterboarding is not torture."
So, it would be okay to use it on people suspected of regular (ie, non-terrorism related) crimes?-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/27/2009 2:52:04 PM
No, unless they are of course guilty of murdering thousands of people and bent on destroying America.
One size doesn't fit all. The same thing applies for punishment. One size doesn't fit all doesn't work there either.-
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/27/2009 4:15:03 PM
"No, unless they are of course guilty of murdering thousands of people and bent on destroying America. "
Where are you from?
In America people are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
"One size doesn't fit all. The same thing applies for punishment. One size doesn't fit all doesn't work there either."
DA! In America the punishment is supposed to occur AFTER the trial not before.-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/27/2009 6:51:36 PM
I'm from America you dumbass. I'm well aware that punishment follows a trial, which it did regarding the three people in question. Their punishment is being carried out by way of life sentences.
Hells bells man, you're so incredibly miserable here... you hate everything about our system and have criticized it to no end, but cry about three murdering manics that would slit your throat in a Miami minute if they had the chance. Don't worry, they didn't suffer. Like everyone else that has undergone the procedure, they were fine and resting comfortably five minutes after it was over. We had enough whiners cry about the way they we treated the murderers that we no long use the technique.
Feel better now?-
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/28/2009 4:05:15 AM
Nobody has tried the three prisoners we admit to waterboarding, (one 128 times). Now I went through the escape and evasion training we now so celebrated as the source of our knowledge about waterboarding. How about you? Have you tried it yet?
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Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/28/2009 8:35:50 AM
They have been arraigned, not tried, so you are correct. However, Muhammed sang like a bird in hopes he would be executed and become a martyr, as he said. He was not waterboarded 183 times. That is a myth found on liberal blog sites.
No, I have not been waterboarded and don't want to go through the process, nor should I. I haven't murdered thousands of innocent Americans, destroyed untold property, and vowed to destroy America until the day I die. You know, these devils would not have had to go through any of this if they had not done the above.-
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/28/2009 1:34:54 PM
"No, I have not been waterboarded and don't want to go through the process, nor should I. I haven't murdered thousands of innocent Americans, destroyed untold property, and vowed to destroy America until the day I die."
We can't know you are telling the truth until you have been waterboarded. Your web nick name sounds kind of Persian to me and until you've been cleared by Dick Cheney I have to believe YOU are part of a sleeper cell sent here to undermine our constituional government by spreading irrational fear and hatred.-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/28/2009 2:46:32 PM
Cute try, but your little ruse won't work. If I or anyone else was suspected of killing thousands of Americans, I would fully expect to go through everything they did, especially if there was no bones made about doing it again until you and your family are gone. In your book, all they have to say is "I didn't do it" and according to you that's enough, we can't go any further, let them go.
If we have another attack, and you lost a loved one in that attack, I suspect you would dramatically change your opinion of the murderers that took their life. As a parent, if someone said they wanted my entire family dead and would never stop trying to kill them as these monsters have said, I would do anything to stop it from happening. You, on the other hand, are free to hand over yours and your children's lives because you don't want someone trying to do kill you to go through enhanced interrogation. I am not.
Anyone here can see where you are coming from. You call our military members murderers, yet assert that the gitmo detainees, none of whom you never even met, as "innocent victims." You're so sure the three we have in custody are innocent people who were forced to admit to crimes they never did, but are positive the gitmo prisoners are innocent victims? Lol
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Posted By: gardenhen @ 08/26/2009 6:42:28 PM
All you people are off the subject!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/29/2009 4:01:04 AM
"if someone said they wanted my entire family dead and would never stop trying to kill them as these monsters have said, I would do anything to stop it from happening."
So I guess you understand the motives of the people resisting us in Iraq who have lost their wives and children to our smart bombs and gold plated cruise missiles.-
Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/29/2009 6:06:40 PM
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/29/2009 4:01:04 AM
-So I guess you understand the motives of the people resisting us in Iraq who have lost their wives and children to our smart bombs and gold plated cruise missiles.
What? Gold plated cruise missiles? And we're suppose to even remotely take you serious. Innocent Iraqi's? You are a funny man!-
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/30/2009 7:44:22 PM
During the first 48 hours of "Shock and Awe" our military bragged that it sent 4800 cruise missiles into residential Baghdad to "decapitate" the Iraqi leadership "in their beds". that's 4800 one thousand pound, million dollar per copy warheads going off in the heart of a city of 5 million men women and children. That's a lot collateral damage and a lot of dead innocent people for no good reason.
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Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/30/2009 8:35:30 PM
freecitizen:During the first 48 hours of "Shock and Awe" our military bragged that it sent 4800 cruise missiles into residential Baghdad to "decapitate" the Iraqi leadership "in their beds". that's 4800 one thousand pound, million dollar per copy warheads going off in the heart of a city of 5 million men women and children. That's a lot collateral damage and a lot of dead innocent people for no good reason.The military bragged? I didn't realize that the military had its own broadcast network to get their "propaganda" out there to the masses. Did they just report the facts and then the networks sensationalized it? They, just today, turned 3 guy's getting together for a beer to discuss their differences into a "Beer Summit." No, the networks wouldn't do that! Again, your words are sensational and dramatic, but they ring hollow.
The cost of the warhead has something to do with your argument, or are you trying to sensationalize again. You are a bit of a drama queen, if you ask me. Your whole innocent Iraqi argument also doesn't work for me. The message that every country around the world should have taken from that is they are responsible for their leaders actions. We sent Nixon home, and quite frankly, it embarrassesd a lot of Americans. But, he broke the law and he had to go. The Iraqi people have had numerous opportunities to do the right thing by getting rid of Saddam. They failed to do the job, so we had to.
It would be criminal for any Commander-in-Chief not to prep the battlefield to reduce the loss of American lifes. You know that! They try to do everything they can to reduce the civilian casualties on the battlefield. Do civilians get killed in war? Yes! Is it unfortunate? Yes!
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/31/2009 2:17:02 AM
"The cost of the warhead has something to do with your argument, or are you trying to sensationalize again."
Yes it speaks volumes about we are willing to spend our money on.
"Your whole innocent Iraqi argument also doesn't work for me. "
Such is the state of our moral bankruptcy. People we kill just don't count.
"The message that every country around the world should have taken from that is they are responsible for their leaders actions."
That is a statement I couldn't agree with you more . In this case WE are also responsible for the actions of our government whether we know about them or not, both BEFORE and after 9/11. By your own declaration none of us are innocent, and that is especially true for those of us who live in nominal democracies.
"We sent Nixon home, and quite frankly, it embarrassesd a lot of Americans. But, he broke the law and he had to go."
Something tells me you wouldn't have supported Nixon's impeachment at the time any more than you want to bring Cheney and Bush to justice now for the much greater crimes they have committed in your honor.
"The Iraqi people have had numerous opportunities to do the right thing by getting rid of Saddam. They failed to do the job, so we had to."
Do the right thing? Just who appointed US the judge and jury over the Iraqi people? Since when is it our job to go around the world deciding who deserves what?
Don't you find it just a little puzzling that we were attacked on 9/11 by 19 militants mostly from from Saudi Arabia who were largely financed by the Saudi Royal Family? They are bad ass dictators who abuse their people and they attacked us. To this day they continue to finance all the radical Wahabi modresses (religious schools) around the world fomenting hatred against the U.S. But they get a free pass because they have been doing business with American oil in general and the Bush family in particular for many years.
You see I wasn't against war in the middle east, but when we landed in Kuwaite with all our troops we should have turned south and taken out the real bastards that attacked us on 9/11. We didn't even have to go into their cities we could have just seized their oil fields and within a weeks time they would have rounded up and produced every last prince who gave Bin Loden money and they would gone over to Afgahnistan and gotten us Bin Loden himself.
But some of us are just too stupid to connect the obviuos dots for ourselves and buy what ever our government tells us hook line and sinker. That is as long as the government is Republican and the president is white.-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/31/2009 8:19:27 AM
"Yes it speaks volumes about we are willing to spend our money on."
You don't seem to have any use for a military of any kind. Without one, how do you expect our country to defend itself? Without the military, you would most likely be speaking German or maybe Japanese right now. That's okay for you if you wish, but the rest of us don't feel that way.
"Something tells me you wouldn't have supported Nixon's impeachment at the time any more than you want to bring Cheney and Bush to justice now for the much greater crimes they have committed in your honor."
Please give us credible, non-biased links verifying those "much greater crimes." "Do the right thing? Just who appointed US the judge and jury over the Iraqi people?
"Since when is it our job to go around the world deciding who deserves what?"
I believe there were over twenty other countries that went with us. Without a world force, the Hitlers and Husseins will run rampant. The only time you'll be screaming louder than you are right now is when they are on your doorstep.
"But some of us are just too stupid to connect the obvious dots for ourselves and buy what ever our government tells us hook line and sinker."
Are you actually suggesting that we should have invaded Saudi? LOL! You find no fault with madman Hussein? Amazing - according to you, none of the terrorists we have in custody are the real perpetrators, and Saddam Hussein was undeserving of the invasion, but the Saudies were. The Saudies didn't attack us on 9/11, we were attacked by terrorist criminals. Where on earth do you come up with your thinking? You claim the Saudies abuse their people, but you are completely unaware that Hussein and his sons raped, tortured, beat, cut out tongues, gassed and murdered hundreds of thousands of their countrymen. There are mass graves there to prove it. I don't think you'll find any mass graves in Saudi.
"We didn't even have to go into their cities we could have just seized their oil fields and within a weeks time they would have rounded up and produced every last prince who gave Bin Loden money and they would gone over to Afgahnistan and gotten us Bin Loden himself."
And once you "rounded them up", how would you determine which ones gave OBL money, and exactly how would you get them to confess? This I gotta read!
"That is as long as the government is Republican and the president is white."
This speaks volumes about you.
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Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/30/2009 8:58:47 PM
Pahhhleeezzzz! Do you have any real stats, other than what you've drummed up in your liberal head? Of course not, only your bullshit, American military hating nonsense. Yes, there were civilian casualties, but nothing as you say. And no mention from you of Saddam Hussein being at fault here and having any part in this? Absolutely not! He disobeyed 17 resolutions over 12 years... because he was right, wasn't he? Like the terrorists, he's blameless! Only us Americans are ever wrong!
I see you never have answered my question why an American "military murder machine" hater like you would ever join the American military. How about an answer? And please don't tell us you were "drafted." Anyone that hated the military as you do would have made a bee line for Canada in a heartbeat, and then received amnesty a few years later.
We're waiting.-
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/31/2009 1:12:42 AM
I joined the military because I was a young, curious, idealistic and ignorant farm boy who'd seen to many John Wayne movies.
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Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/30/2009 9:03:26 PM
Many of the people in Iraq "resisting" are from Syria and similar countries. They are not Iraqis.
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/29/2009 11:41:02 AM
"If I or anyone else was suspected of killing thousands of Americans, I would fully expect to go through everything they did,"
So in your America, suspicion is enough to justify torture. and you trust the government to tell you who is guilty and who isn't without a trial, but you don't trust them to organize and deliver our health care.-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/29/2009 4:38:07 PM
Suspicion is spawned first by evidence. The people in the CIA don't just pick people out of thin air and accuse them without reason and you know it. In your America, unless the terrorists voluntarily admit they've killed thousands of people after being asked very nicely, or unless we have video or photographs of them doing so (even then you would probably say they've been staged or Photo shopped) that we should just accept they've told the truth, toss any evidence we have and and let them go. Makes perfect sense to you. You really believe Khalid Sheik Muhammed is innocent, wasn't a part of Al Qaeda, and didn't murder Daniel Pearl and thousands of other Americans?
The CIA, as part of the military is charged with keep us safe. However, the gov. bureaucracy that has failed to run the Postal Service, run Social Security bankrupt, and brought Medicare and Medicaid to financial disaster, cannot be trusted to suddenly be able to bring us this euphoric health care system. Where is the history makes you think the bureaucrats in government can do this?
The murdering terrorists you want to pamper and so love defending will have their day in court. Stop whining about when that will happen. Once again, they chose to put themselves in this position. Opps, I forgot. You just know down in your heart that they're all innocent! Lol-
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/30/2009 7:13:18 PM
"The CIA, as part of the military is charged with keep us safe. However, the gov. bureaucracy that has failed to run the Postal Service, run Social Security bankrupt, and brought Medicare and Medicaid to financial disaster, cannot be trusted to suddenly be able to bring us this euphoric health care system. Where is the history makes you think the bureaucrats in government can do this?"
This beautiful, do you see the fallacy of your logic here?
You trust the bureaucrats in the CIA, who you know absolutely nothing about, to tell you who is guilty and who is not, but not any other part of the government.
We DO know that during the run up to the Iraq war the CIA either lied or got virtually EVERYTHING wrong about WMDs and the general disposition of the Iraqi people. Meanwhile our mail got delivered and the folks on Social Security got their checks.
By the way so as not to show how completely ignorant you are, don't tell anybody that the CIA is part of the military, because its not.-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/30/2009 9:15:39 PM
"This beautiful, do you see the fallacy of your logic here?"
WTF???
"You trust the bureaucrats in the CIA, who you know absolutely nothing about, to tell you who is guilty and who is not, but not any other part of the government."
The CIA, like our police forces, are not beaurocracracies. The bean counters you wish to entrust trillions of dollars to for the Obama care/death plan (that no one has read, including him) however, are.
"We DO know that during the run up to the Iraq war the CIA either lied or got virtually EVERYTHING wrong about WMDs and the general disposition of the Iraqi people."
Wrong. Saddam Husseine lied about having WMD' and admitted so right before his death, because he was afraid Iran would invade his nation. Why else would he have fired upon UN Inspectors? Did he do that because he had noting to hide?
Okay, have it your way you little junior liberal. The CiA is not part of the military. It is part of the Russian Empire! Or maybe it's some faction from Mars... lol
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Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/28/2009 8:21:32 AM
Your still blogging your drivel so it couldn't have been to bad. Did you go through with Hannity?
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/28/2009 4:07:02 AM
"you hate everything about our system"
Since when did torture become part of OUR system?-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/28/2009 8:06:09 AM
Since when do we electrocute prisoners? Or beat them? Or tear out there eyes? Or saw off their heads? That is real torture. We waterboard our own military to prepare them for battle. It is a very uncomfortable procedure, yes. Torture, no. We do not torture our own people.
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/28/2009 1:27:45 PM
Let us know when you been waterboarded so we can hear all about it.
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Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/28/2009 3:02:22 PM
One more time... why should I? I've seen enough to know that it isn't a pleasant experience. Maybe the assho!e murdering monsters should not have come over here to destroy thousands of innocent Americans in the first place. Have you ever thought of that? You have not said anything about their deplorable actions, you've only voiced your outrage about how horrible we have been with our "treatment" of them. Stop coddling these devils, they are no worse for the wear, and the 30 planned attacks on America they were most certainly going to carry out have been stopped. That saved lives... maybe thousands of lives. Maybe even your own.
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Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/28/2009 8:23:04 AM
I agree! We should have said, "Oh, please Mr. Terrorist, tell us everything you know."
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Posted By: Fernadez @ 08/26/2009 11:45:39 AM
Nazi Hilter likes Bush ideology,identical.
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Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/27/2009 4:53:46 PM
"No, unless they are of course guilty of murdering thousands of people and bent on destroying America."
Wait. Either it's not torture, and it's okay to use on Americans, or it's torture, and we shouldn't be doing it at all.
Also, why do you speak of "punishment"? Is that why we're doing it? I thought it was to get them to talk.-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/27/2009 6:41:02 PM
You intentionally misinterpreted my post. I never said waterbording was punishment, I used punishment as an analogy. Greater crimes call for greater punishment, just as greater risks and threats, such as a committed group of manics telling us over and over they want us dead, calls for enhanced interrogation techniques. One size for either doesn't fit all.
"Wait. Either it's not torture, and it's okay to use on Americans, or it's torture, and we shouldn't be doing it at all."
We do use it on Americans. Our soldiers are waterboarded during training. We don't torture our own people, that's why it isn't torture.
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/27/2009 1:15:57 PM
"You libs and your hate accusations about Bush and Cheney - None of you have ever had one shred of credible evidence that "Bush and Cheney lied", you just "know in your heart" they did."
If you don't recognize that you've been had and played for a trillion dollar sucker by the Cheney / Halleburton war machine by now you never will. There is no such thing as a credible source that will penetrate the such a determined effort to ignore the mountain of evidence before you.
As for hate, yes I do dislike would be tyrants, war profiteers and their dimmwitted thugs. I generally just feel sorry for the easily manipulated, frightened, cowering populous that makes them possible. Such is the nature of the human race.
What happened to poor Danny Pearl was indeed terrible, just as the deaths of tens or hundreds of thousands of men women and children we've needlessly dismembered and blown to bloody ribbons in our war in Iraq. We have more innocent blood on our hands than any one else on the planet. In the end it isn't about who we torture, but about who we are as a people.
Getting back to health care, this fight IS all about who we are. as a nation. Public relations is now a precise science. We are now easily manipulated by our emotions, primarally fear. We are so mortally AFRAID that some "illegal alien" or "wellfare queen" driving that mythical Cadillac might get free medical attention or that some government functionary might let us die, we are literally paralyzed. Meanwhile ETNA, Goldman Sachs and Halliburton are using our fear to suck us dry.-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/27/2009 3:01:01 PM
"If you don't recognize that you've been had and played for a trillion dollar sucker by the Cheney / Halleburton war machine by now you never will."
Prove it.
"There is no such thing as a credible source that will penetrate the such a determined effort to ignore the mountain of evidence before you."
Wrong. What evidence? Post it here! You have no evidence. If it was out there, Nancy Pelosi would have impeached Bush in a heartbeat.
Your comment about our fear of an illegal alien driving a Cadillac getting health care is ridiculous. What's more, your state is overrun with them. You should know that as a teacher. Prop 187 was overturned, against the vote and will of the people of California by a liberal just like you.
Your state is in shambles because of extreme liberalism, and all you can think of is to keep digging a bigger and bigger hole. And then you whine and complain about how bad things are! You aren't part of the problem, you ARE the problem.-
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/27/2009 3:32:58 PM
"Your state is in shambles because of extreme liberalism, and all you can think of is to keep digging a bigger and bigger hole."
Our state is a shambles because of prop.13, which cut taxes to the point that we went from first in the nation in educational spending to just above the racist, third world, share cropper state of Mississippi which is dead last. We've only had one Democratic governor for the last several years and he didn't get to finish his term. Enron's Ken Lay financed the recall and election of still another dimwitted movie star, to get a $5 billion dollar civil lawsuit off his back for his part in manipulating the privatized energy market, draining the California treasury of $15 billion dollars.
Beyond that we incarcerate more folks than anybody else on the planet, spending more on prisons than we do on higher education and we are one of the only states that doesn't tax oil coming out of our ground. Even in this crisis our big corporations just got a multi-billion dollar tax relief bill passed allowing them to exempt their profits from sales in other states.
Does any of this sound like a socialist worker's paradise to you?-
Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/27/2009 6:20:32 PM
-Our state is a shambles because of prop.13, which cut taxes to the point that we went from first in the nation in educational spending to just above the racist, third world, share cropper state of Mississippi which is dead last.
Your love of Mississippi not withstanding, tell us how you really feel. And you wonder why people with any smarts call people like you (at best) "Elitists.
- We've only had one Democratic governor for the last several years and he didn't get to finish his term. Enron's Ken Lay financed the recall and election of still another dimwitted movie star, to get a $5 billion dollar civil lawsuit off his back for his part in manipulating the privatized energy market, draining the California treasury of $15 billion dollars.
So, the ten poorest cities in American have one thing in common. Any guesses as to what that is? All their mayor's come from the same party. Any guesses which party that is? You are a funny man.
-Beyond that we incarcerate more folks than anybody else on the planet, spending more on prisons than we do on higher education and we are one of the only states that doesn't tax oil coming out of our ground. Even in this crisis our big corporations just got a multi-billion dollar tax relief bill passed allowing them to exempt their profits from sales in other states.
Your liberal courts made you spend 7 billion for new hospitals for the crooks. You voted them in. Hell, they get better medical care than most in California. Poor California. Makes me want to cry in my beer. They elected all those fine politicans there- Boxer, Pelosi, Frankenstein:)
-Does any of this sound like a socialist worker's paradise to you?
Yes! It's called, "The Peoples Republic of California."-
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/28/2009 1:52:35 PM
"So, the ten poorest cities in American have one thing in common. Any guesses as to what that is? All their mayor's come from the same party. Any guesses which party that is?"
You are confussing cause and affect. Poor people aren't poor because voted Democratic, poor people vote Democratic because they THINK the Democratic Party is on their side. They are being misled of course, but one thing they all KNOW for sure, the Republican Party isn't on their side in any way shape or form. To my way of thinking, both parties are part of the same corporate system. The whole charade is designed to create the illusion of choice and change AND to keep us at each other's throats while the corporate "elitists" drain our public resources on a massive scale no matter who we THINK is in power.-
Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/28/2009 3:46:11 PM
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/28/2009 1:52:35 PM
-You are confussing cause and affect. Poor people aren't poor because voted Democratic, poor people vote Democratic because they THINK the Democratic Party is on their side. They are being misled of course, but one thing they all KNOW for sure, the Republican Party isn't on their side in any way shape or form. To my way of thinking, both parties are part of the same corporate system. The whole charade is designed to create the illusion of choice and change AND to keep us at each other's throats while the corporate "elitists" drain our public resources on a massive scale no matter who we THINK is in power.
No I'm not. The one thing they (poor people) think they KNOW is that their political interests somehow outweigh their ECONOMIC self interests. Is it true the republican party doesn't have the poor peoples best interests at heart? I don't think you KNOW what you are talking about. Next question.-
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/29/2009 3:36:50 AM
I don't think either party really cares about the powerless. They are both in it for the power just for power's sake and the cash it generates. It has to be said that the Republican Party is somewhat more honest in its distain for the poor and their thesis that poverty is not an indelible circumstance but rather a character flaw.
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Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/29/2009 6:13:07 PM
Again, that is your opinion. You were right about one thing, however. The whole character flaw issue is something you can definitely simpathize with, huh?
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/30/2009 7:30:45 PM
No doubt about it I have character flaws, after Vietnam I went to college on the GI Bill. Blood money wouldn't you say.
Then I ran a small business employing 49 different people over the years. Tangled with the IRS from time to time but won every fight. The last one lasted 7 years and finally ended when we showed we could prove the original now retired IRS agent forged our signiture on a settlement agreement.
It cost me a lot of time and a small fortune so I just gave up, closed my doors and decided to finish my productive life sharing what I learned in the trade with the next generation. I went back to school for two more years just to earn the right to teach your kids how to get by in the world of business.
Never been really rich or really poor. Fortunately we have accumulated the resources over the years to subsize this new occupation. I pity the youngsters trying to make a go of it from stratch.-
Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/30/2009 8:44:34 PM
freecitizen:No doubt about it I have character flaws, after Vietnam I went to college on the GI Bill. Blood money wouldn't you say.I don't think so. I had to pay my way through.
-Then I ran a small business employing 49 different people over the years. Tangled with the IRS from time to time but won every fight. The last one lasted 7 years and finally ended when we showed we could prove the original now retired IRS agent forged our signiture on a settlement agreement. It cost me a lot of time and a small fortune so I just gave up, closed my doors and decided to finish my productive life sharing what I learned in the trade with the next generation. I went back to school for two more years just to earn the right to teach your kids how to get by in the world of business. Never been really rich or really poor. Fortunately we have accumulated the resources over the years to subsize this new occupation. I pity the youngsters trying to make a go of it from stratch.
I don't pity them. They can graduate high school, go to college, join the military, join the family business, or get a job. They have the same options available that we did. Little has changed in the opportunity department- THANKS TO THE SACRIFICES OF THOSE FINE SERVICEMEN AND WOMEN DEFENDING US AND OUR WAY OF LIFE! Right, Freecitizen?
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/31/2009 3:29:05 AM
Its been great fun talking to you greg but every time we talk we push this rediculous off topic thread to the top of the page. If you want to continue to talk let's start a new thread and talk about health care.
I have this feeling that you and I propably agree that this group of politicans are not likely to come up with a health care solution that will not bankrupt this nation. The "plan" they are proposing is at least as bad as remaining on the same disasterous course we're on now.
My solution is to accept the fact that we have learn from what the rest of the world has done and recognize our self image of the rugged self-reliant individual is a luxury we can no longer afford.
Now I know you are against that solution, but please tell me what you are for. What plan do you guys have to bring health care back into the range of remotely affordable? -
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/31/2009 2:39:24 AM
THANKS TO THE SACRIFICES OF THOSE FINE SERVICEMEN AND WOMEN DEFENDING US AND OUR WAY OF LIFE! Right, Freecitizen?
Yes our heavily armed military has made our way of life possible. The problem is we have been at war for most of my life and at some point we need to ask ourselves what it is about OUR WAY OF LIFE exactly that makes killing all these other people around the world in their homelands seem so necessary.
This is not just a touchy feely moral question, for every empire in history comes up against the law of deminishing returns. At some point all the low hanging fruit is gone and it costs more to maintain an empire than it generates in usualbe wealth. Empires have a tendancy to go broke before they realize or are willing to admit they can't afford the luxury anymore and the end isn't always pretty.
Most of our Europeasn allies have been through the loss of empire process already. Chastened by their own emperial bankruptcies they have decided to dedicate their national resourses to meeting the real day to day domestic needs of their people. They were of course also more than willing to accept our military embrella as their national defense, making their military costs a small fraction of ours.
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Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/27/2009 7:07:18 PM
Prop. 13 is the only tax break the people of CA. have. They are taxed to death for everything else, and you want that rescinded? The people simply don't have the money. California is losing businesses and people, or is it you who have been living under a rock and don't know that? Liberals cannot understand that it's not what you take in, it's what you spend. The reason Grey Davis didn't finish his term is because he was spending the state into oblivion.
No, it doesn't sound like a socialist worker's paradise. Just drop "worker's paradise" and you're there.
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/27/2009 3:59:20 PM
"Wrong. What evidence? Post it here! You have no evidence. If it was out there, Nancy Pelosi would have impeached Bush in a heartbeat."
Have you been sleeping under a rock? From day one, and for strickly politcal reasons Pelosi declared that "impeachment was off the table" . Obama continues to ignore the demands of the law by insisting, for the same political reasons, that "It's time to look forward."
Meanwhile inform yourself. What do you know about PNAC, "Curve Ball", Achmed Chalabi, and Dick Cheney's Pentagon Office of Special Plans? When you've sorted it all out come and tell us what you think.-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/27/2009 7:00:17 PM
The only break the people of California has is property tax. You're taxed to death with everything else, and instead of contrlling spending, you want to take the property tax break away? Corporations and people are leaving California, or is you who has been living under a rock and don't know that?
Funny, the folks that live in Texas have it pretty good as a red state. They had a seven billion dollar surplus last year.
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Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/27/2009 7:52:17 AM
Freecitizen, Where is the uproar from the military? I'm a veteran and I don't feel betrayed by VICE President Cheney or President Bush. I work around the military and haven't heard one soldier say a word about how we waterboarded those poor terrorists. I guess they aren't very patriotic, huh?
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/27/2009 3:02:26 PM
I do have to say I was proud to see the lawyer defending the human rigAGhts of Guantanamo's victims before he Supreme Court, wearing the uniform of a U.S. Navy JAG officer. Further most of what we now know to be the crimes of the Bush Cheney years were exposed by career military and intellegence officers who stood up at risk of life and career, for what they knew to be right.
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Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/27/2009 8:39:16 PM
You label our military as "organized murderers", with only the exception of a Navy officer who defended the "victims of Guantanamo Bay" of the Bush-Cheney crimes. Funny, you would hang a former president without proof, and decry gitmo detainees you've never met as guiltless, innocent victims. Yeah, they're all there for no reason! lol
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/28/2009 3:26:59 AM
All military organizations on this planet are and have always been in the business of organzied murder. i dont single out ours as being any different now or when I helped kill 3 million Vietnamese. As for hanging our last president I never said that, but they ARE possibly guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors that caused the unecessary deaths more than four thousand Americans and perhaps a million innocent Iraqis.
When you consider that some of these guys clearly despised our democratic form of govrnment and tried to subvert it at every turn, they clearly represented a greater threat to our freedom than all the two bit Osama Bin Lodens on the planet.
These dudes wanted to invade a US city with federal troops to make an arrest just to establish the precident. and the irony is that apparently G.W. Bush was the only guy standing between us and these would be thugs.-
Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/28/2009 8:19:31 AM
Freecitizen, What was your job in the military? You weren't a cook in the Officer's Mess, were you? Did you get a purple heart for those egg fragment wounds? The Army food can be deadly. Everybody duck!
Your distain for our way of life is pretty sicking. Again, I hope you seek some help before it's too late. I know that it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks, but it's not impossible. Good luck!-
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/29/2009 4:19:08 AM
"Your distain for our way of life is pretty sicking."
If you keep insisting on calling torture "our way of life" What can I say? ..... its not the America I loved and fought for. If YOU don't have the courage to live up to the democratic ideals that made this nation possible, that's YOUR choice, but don't call it OUR way of life. It's just like spitting on OUR flag.-
Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/29/2009 5:58:25 PM
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/29/2009 4:19:08 AM
-If you keep insisting on calling torture "our way of life" What can I say? ..... its not the America I loved and fought for. If YOU don't have the courage to live up to the democratic ideals that made this nation possible, that's YOUR choice, but don't call it OUR way of life. It's just like spitting on OUR flag.
Torture? I said nothing about torture. Are you bringing up waterboarding again? Courage? Spitting on our flag? Wow, you got all that out of my post?
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/29/2009 11:58:52 AM
Wasn't a cook, my work was classified and one third of the folks in my unit didn't survive the experience, so next time YOU denegrate somebody else's service, think about the fact that in your so-called 100 hour war the kill ratio against the Iraqis was more than 1000:1 putting it in the catagory of a massecre not a real war. Even on the front lines of Desert Storm your greatest danger was from friendly fire. You should thank your lucky stars that George Bush the 1st had the good sense to stop at the border of Iraq and spare your generation the senseless meat grinder we have served up to our children.
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Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/29/2009 5:53:54 PM
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/29/2009 11:58:52 AM
-Wasn't a cook, my work was classified and one third of the folks in my unit didn't survive the experience, so next time YOU denegrate somebody else's service, think about the fact that in your so-called 100 hour war the kill ratio against the Iraqis was more than 1000:1 putting it in the catagory of a massecre not a real war.
Quiet everyone! Freecitizen had a top secret job in the mlitary. He can't tell us what he did. He was in and out of Laos and "we weren't even there" so he'd like to tell you, but he'd have to kill you. You are a funny man! A clearance doesn't prevent you from telling me what your occupation was. I didn't ask you to right a book, I was just curious. Your right on the comment I made about your service. Far be it from me to take away anything that you did over there. I was poking you for typing your drivel up here is all. I actually could have been right, though. Those egg shell fragments are nothing to be taken lightly.
I am glad to know that I went to a massacre and not a real war. I think we should have left some guys home to make it a fairer fight. You are a funny man. Not one word about the Kuwaiti's that were invaded. You are fair and balanced. Again, you don't teach this crap in your classes do you?
-Even on the front lines of Desert Storm your greatest danger was from friendly fire.
You haven't heard that friendly fire isn't that friendly?
-You should thank your lucky stars that George Bush the 1st had the good sense to stop at the border of Iraq and spare your generation the senseless meat grinder we have served up to our children.
Shows you how much you know. I have a picture of myself standing next to a sign that reads: Bagdad- 60KMs. We didn't go into Bagdad in Desert Storm (Conventional Forces), but we occupied the entire southern half of the country. By the way, George Bush (41) was a one term President. He had a lot of people not vote for him because he didn't get Saddam then. -
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/29/2009 4:43:04 PM
"Wasn't a cook, my work was classified and one third of the folks in my unit didn't survive the experience."
If you say so. I'm curious - why would someone that absolutely hates and despises the "organized murder" machine ever join the military? Just a tad contradictory.
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Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/27/2009 8:10:20 PM
Before or after they were passed over for promotion?
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/27/2009 12:38:43 PM
The military generally reflects the views of the nation that puts them in the field. If this generation of the miltary doesnt give a rat's behind about the Constitution I'm not at all surprised. War generally requires fostering a "them against us" racist view of our so-called enemies that our current military utilizes, as have all militaries since the dawn of civilization and organized murder.
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Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/27/2009 6:33:11 PM
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/27/2009 12:38:43 PM
-The military generally reflects the views of the nation that puts them in the field. If this generation of the miltary doesnt give a rat's behind about the Constitution I'm not at all surprised.
Wow! Your appreciation of their sacrifice is truly outstanding. Your parent's should be proud of you.
-War generally requires fostering a "them against us" racist view of our so-called enemies that our current military utilizes, as have all militaries since the dawn of civilization and organized murder.
I'm glad you have the freedom to label our military, "organized racist murders." Are you really a teacher? Man, we're doomed! I hope you hide that hate while you're in the classroom.-
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/28/2009 3:55:34 AM
"I'm glad you have the freedom to label our military, "organized racist murders." Are you really a teacher? Man, we're doomed! I hope you hide that hate while you're in the classroom."
I dont teach political science and almost never talk politics with my kids. In any case characterizing my feelings as hate is total BS. Its possible to love your country and hate what's happening to it.
Unless you have been to war yourself you might not recognize that ALL war is murder organized around the de-humanization of your enemy. Its the ONLY way it works, its the only way you can survive the experience with some shread of your soul in tact.
I suggest you go on line and view as many troop submitted videos as you can stand and judge for yourself just how mature and professional our troops in the field seem to you. They are as always mostly very young frightened kids with some very big and deadly toys.-
Posted By: bkrummel @ 07/28/2009 6:49:20 AM
"Its possible to love your country and hate what's happening to it."
I've heard this line of reasoning regarding U.S. wars before and I don't like where this reasoning sometimes goes. I in fact heard it from fellow college students mentioning how they don't support the troops because they disagree with the Iraq War. You seem rather disrespectful of the troops yourself. I always thought supporting the troops and loyalty to your peers was very important, so I could never understand how someone could say bad things about the troops, especially when people their own age went off to war. Just wrong if you ask me.
That is not to say that criticizing your own government is not patriotic. Such constructive criticism and civil disobedience is very patriotic. But there is a fine line between a critical patriot and an unpatriotic ass.
As far as the maturity level of our troops - I have friends and family that served in the military. Admittedly our troops are young adults that are a little immature. Sometimes they even have a bit of fun. Though I think that is fine (within reason) since just because someone joins the military doesn't mean one stops being a human being. However, I understand that our troops take a great deal of pride in their military and they do there job to the best of their ability. For the most part our troops are professionals.
You can say whatever you want about the dark side of our troops and there is indeed some truth to it. However, our troops are good people that preform a necessary service for our country and do it very well. I think you should show more appreciation for all the good our troops have done.-
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/29/2009 4:49:22 AM
"You seem rather disrespectful of the troops yourself."
They are our kids, we are the grown ups, the responsible parties. The greatest disrepect we can impose on these kids is to send them off to kill and die in an unecessary war and then leave them there year after year because we don't have the common decency to admit our mistake and bring them home.
Been there and done that and I never wanted to see THAT happen again in my life time.
As for our troops overseas, believe me, I have all the sympathy in the world for the deadly predicament WE put them in. Given their mission however, they are no more or less virtuous than all the armies of empire throughout history that have been sent to other people's far off lands to impose our will by force of arms and secure the economic and political interests of the fatherland.
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Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/28/2009 7:58:50 AM
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/28/2009 3:55:34 AM
-I dont teach political science and almost never talk politics with my kids. In any case characterizing my feelings as hate is total BS. Its possible to love your country and hate what's happening to it.
Almost never is probably too much in your case. I agree that you can speak out and have strong opinions about anything you want, but calling our soldiers "organized murderers" is dispicable. Call them that if you like, but very very few feel that way. I wasn't old enough to go to Vietnam, but I made it to Desert Storm and 9/11. I never once felt like I was a murderer. I guess I should go back and re-evaluate my 24 years of service.
-Unless you have been to war yourself you might not recognize that ALL war is murder organized around the de-humanization of your enemy. Its the ONLY way it works, its the only way you can survive the experience with some shread of your soul in tact.
Sounds like you need to do some soul-searching old fella.
-I suggest you go on line and view as many troop submitted videos as you can stand and judge for yourself just how mature and professional our troops in the field seem to you. They are as always mostly very young frightened kids with some very big and deadly toys.
They are mature and professional. I agree that the Army has a few bad apples as any organization has, but does that make them all immature and unprofessional? Teachers having sex with their students makes your profession look bad, but I don't assume that the whole profession is unprofessional. It sounds like you have some issues from within yourself and have never come to grips with them. My advice would be to seek some professional help.
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Posted By: bkrummel @ 07/27/2009 7:30:28 PM
This post is flat out inappropriate. I have friends that served over in Iraq. Our military consists of professionals (with a few exceptions) who served along side Iraqi troops (I have seen pictures of this). By your own admission, members of our military do care about the Constitution and what's right and as a result sacrificed their careers to speak out against the Bush administration. The insinuation that "this generation of the military" doesn't care about the Constitution and is racist is completely inaccurate and uncalled for. You should recant this post.
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Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/27/2009 2:55:38 PM
The military is not in the business of making laws, nor approving their use.
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Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/27/2009 6:26:35 PM
I didn't say they were. I said I haven't seen the uproar from these fine Americans. Contrary to popular belief among the "Elitists," soldiers can think for themselves and voice their opinions. Are there some who were against it? Of course. I was mierely pointing out that there isn't many.
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/28/2009 4:25:04 AM
"Contrary to popular belief among the "Elitists," soldiers can think for themselves and voice their opinions."
Clearly you've never been there. You don't voice unpopular opinions when everybody around you has a gun and you have to depend on the guy next to you to survive. If it gets real bad everybody gripes to each other of course, but you are not generally allowed to air your negative opinions to the outside world.
Meanwhile as a farm raised working class war veteran I'd like to meet one of them elitists you guys keep talking about.-
Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/28/2009 8:09:44 AM
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/28/2009 4:25:04 AM
"Contrary to popular belief among the "Elitists," soldiers can think for themselves and voice their opinions."
-Clearly you've never been there. You don't voice unpopular opinions when everybody around you has a gun and you have to depend on the guy next to you to survive. If it gets real bad everybody gripes to each other of course, but you are not generally allowed to air your negative opinions to the outside world.
I have been there and I don't agree with you. You can say whatever you want, depending how you package it. It's called have some tact. I've had a few "closed door" meetings with superior officers and was able to more than get my point across.
-Meanwhile as a farm raised working class war veteran I'd like to meet one of them elitists you guys keep talking about.
I had the same upbringing: raised on a farm, war veteran, working class family. Just because you come from that background doesn't mean that you can't be an elitist. Look at our current President. He likes to talk about his upbringing and how middle class it was. Now, even MSNBC admits that he has elitist tendacies. I'm sure that Neville Chamberlain would be proud of both of you.
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Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/27/2009 11:49:18 AM
"Your laughable 9/11 quote minimizes that tragedy. We haven't surrendered anything."
Except amendments IV, V, VI, and VIII. Other than that, great point.-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/27/2009 2:42:47 PM
IV - not so. If you see it that way, you should see public screening and searches at airports and roadblocks as a violation of that amendment also.
V - The fifth? Absurd.
VI - The right to a speedy trial? Are you speaking of Gitmo? When they become US citizens, we'll get em' a speedy trial!
VIII - You're way off with this one also. "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. " Exactly how have we done this?-
Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/27/2009 2:54:42 PM
Amendment IV: Warrantless wiretaps.
Amendment V: Don't feel like testifying against yourself? Lay on this board for a few minutes.
Amendment VI: Some crimes don't get trials, anymore.
Amendment VIII: Waterboarding, etc.-
Posted By: Shanshayla @ 07/28/2009 7:01:12 PM
Hagbard Celine,
It looks like a couple of questions have been asked of you here that you haven't answered. You're obviously an opponent of waterboarding. When the evidence is already against them, do you oppose sleep deprivation, harsh language, or pushing one of these people around to get the answers we need to prevent future attacks? Surely you know terrorists will not respond to being asked nicely... well, except with maybe a spit in the eye along with a one fingered salute.
Also, do you object when going through some sort of security checkpoint such as a road block? This is much more than overhearing a conversation... they're looking at you, looking in your car... if they think they have a reason, you will be pulled over and you and your car searched. You have no problem with that?
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Posted By: Skybox @ 07/25/2009 6:24:03 PM
Really pulls your chain. Wonder why.
Must have cheated on the tests in anger management class.
Well, worry not sonny, you can still be a whiney white boy and get that GED without anger management.
In fact, sad to say, but I believe in some states they will let you vote. Oh well.-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/25/2009 6:50:19 PM
Same puny remarks from a puny, bitchy little know no-nothing lib. Lol.
The only chain pulling going on here is you and your buddy making disingenuous statements that, like you, are truly "stupid and ignorant." Note to dumbass: You are free to call yourself stupid and ignorant, (as you've very accurately displayed here) but you don't speak for the American people, so leave the rest of us out of inane, irresponsible and just plain bullshit posts.-
Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/27/2009 12:31:11 PM
"Same puny remarks from a puny, bitchy little know no-nothing lib. Lol."
Same ad hominem crap from Vypurr.-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/27/2009 6:15:26 PM
Wow, hag... you finally took a side! I'll bet that hurt... Skybox does the same thing and nary a peep from you. Well, at least you finally took a side on something. There may be hope for you yet.
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Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/27/2009 6:24:13 PM
I don't even read Skybox. He is the reason my mouse has a scroll button.
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Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/25/2009 7:16:02 PM
Vypurr, Whether you know it or not, you have locked horns here with the resident troll, 40YearR. If you look at more than 10 of his posts, you will know more about him than you probably want to. He is well hated up here and we think he actually likes it! Go figure!
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Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/27/2009 12:31:40 PM
Skybox is 40Yr?
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Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/27/2009 4:01:32 PM
That surprise you?
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Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/27/2009 4:51:28 PM
Yeah. I thought Skybox was Izageek.
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Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/27/2009 4:54:41 PM
Do you know something I don't know, brother?
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Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/27/2009 5:18:06 PM
Naw, it was just a guess, based on behavior.
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Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/25/2009 6:34:38 PM
Spot on, 40, spot on. Look at all the states that voted blue last time- highest percentage of high school dropouts and free loaders riding the train to......
Poor 40OCD.
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Posted By: Skybox @ 07/25/2009 6:37:57 PM
Real answers.
OK, read between the lines, scooter:
better and more comprehensive education for all Americans. Including the art of actually thinking for yourself.
Putting a higher priority on the health, education, and welfare of our citizens than that of selling/buying shiny things that glow in the dark.
Weening people from their sacred delusions whether commercially presented (TV, Internet, music gadgets) or debunking dangerous myths that undermine the foundations of our national life.
Keeping semi-conscious drones tied up on weenie boards (here) where they can bloviate til the proverbial cows come home and nobody cares.
In this way our better angels will not be afraid to land in America again.
Thanks for providing a foil for what has turned into a pretty good discussion of important issues.
You certainly have made any point I had hoped to make.
Until next time!-
Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/25/2009 6:52:41 PM
Spot on, 40, spot on! Hopefully, some of those "better angels" land in your basement and clean the place up for you. Now take off your IPOD and quit drinking the MD 20-20.
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/28/2009 8:21:22 AM
freecitizen, if your number 1 here is a myth, tell us which countries have the best health care system. FYI, in case you think it is Canada, it is NOT. I ought to know, I have lived there. I also have aunts, uncles and dozens of cousins who live there and have experienced the Canadian healthcare system. Many Canadians come to the US for their medical treatment.
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/28/2009 1:25:48 PM
The number one system in terms of meaured health care out come and custumer satisfaction is apparently France.
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Posted By: Skybox @ 07/25/2009 6:05:38 PM
spot on.
Thanks for posting here.-
Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/25/2009 6:24:39 PM
Spot on, 40, Spot on. How's the old constipated democrat on this fine Saturday? You still peddling your hate up here scumbag?
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Posted By: gardenhen @ 08/26/2009 6:27:47 PM
Senator Kennedy will be greatly missed and I hope they name the health care plan after him, as he deserves it. He worked hard trying to get it through and has many good ideas.God be with him and his family as they go through this trying time.Mabel Mease
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Posted By: Mad Mad Jimmy @ 08/18/2009 1:18:54 PM
I don't want insurance, my dealings with companies to this point have been nightmarish and so complicated that it truly takes someone educated in the way the system works to understand the nuances.
No! No insurance, just simple health care.
At least basic services.
I gave up my policy so I could at least afford to visit a doctor. Now I'm afraid if I do visit a doctor and something is found then I will have a pre-existing condition and I will either die for lack of care or be bankrupted.
What about people who don't make enough to pay taxes?
Of course the rich don't care about them, many don't vote so the politicians don't care about them either.
Is America really this cruel?
Should we as a people have a mass suicide on the lawn of the white house to bring our point home?
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Posted By: TruthForward @ 08/08/2009 7:43:13 AM
If a black man is at the head of a great idea.... Surely, the sky will fall.
An option is not an option, health is not health, reform is not reform, smart people are not smart people (they support this option), etc. etc.
The sky is falling... Batten down the hatches!
*Advice for Republicans: Stock up on non-perishable foods and batten down the hatches! lol-
Posted By: Shanshayla @ 08/14/2009 9:04:26 AM
"If a black man is at the head of a great idea.... Surely, the sky will fall."
A very racist and race baiting remark. Obama's skin color has nothing to do with his planned government take over of health care. Simple question for you: if this is such a "great idea" as the democrats say it is, why did all but three of them vote against a bill that would require congress and their family members to join the same plan as they are foisting on us? Simple. They know this fiasco of a bill isn't what they say it is. They know "the sky will actually fall" as you put it. Otherwise they'd put their money where their big mouths are and be on board with it also.
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Posted By: NewsWkDickG @ 08/10/2009 1:40:37 PM
We just completed eight years where Special Interests and a select few have had their way and we literally have seen just how drastic the costs of that can be. You would think that we could learn our lessons yet today there are people again being manipulated with misinformation, people once more being excited by scare tactics and then being used by a few for private gain. Health care reform is urgently needed to bring the costs down for everyone, to allow for everyone to be insured while reducing what we all pay for the uninsured (with taxes and increased premiums), to keep Medicare costs in check and the system working, to reduce costs to businesses and to help the economy, to keep focus on progress towards reducing the deficit and, when with the truth understood, the only people that likely could be against it would be those who are profiting so greatly now - Special Interests and a select few. Then there are also those politicians who feel it serves their own purposes to just be obstructionists. It would really be best if we could refrain from returning to 'more of the same', to avoid being manipulated and controlled for the sole benefit of a few. We need to simply check the facts and not just believe the deceptive misinformation, no matter how convincing their bull sounds, and this time avoid being easily swayed by the scare tactics or manipulated by the subterfuge and instead recognize it as the standard operating procedure they have used so many times in the past. We really can't afford 'more of the same'!
(check http:///www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck for the facts)
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Posted By: GetARealityCheck @ 08/04/2009 2:58:42 AM
1.5 million dollars is being spent PER day by the Health Care Industry to fight Americans having a public option. A good portion of that money is being spent to spread total lies on well known sites such as this one.
Please, people...fact check everything you see posted. If you only knew that a good percentage of the negative posts you see about the public health care option may have been posted by paid staff from the health care industry posing as good ole american citizens. There is NOTHING these unethical thieves will not stoop to doing to maintain their stranglehold on the health care industry.
Fellow Americans, please don't idly stand by and let our elected representatives (who are owned lock/stock & barrel by the health care industry) sell us out to the highest bidder.
PLEASE contact Democrat Mike Ross, who chairs the bluedogs on health care at:
mikeross@mikeross.com
Call him at his Arizona office at (870) 887-8194 - phone (870) 887-3260 - fax
Call him at his Washington office at (202) 225-3772, 1-800-223-2220, (202) 225-1314 Fax
Twitter him at RepMikeRoss
Tell him how you feel about how he's handling health care for Americans.-
Posted By: gregcovert @ 08/04/2009 7:43:22 AM
More fear mongering from the Left. You should be ashamed of yourself! Just because you don't want the Bluedogs and other Reps slowing this process down and requiring everyone to read the bill in Congress before it is voted on doesn't mean that others do. Who are you being paid by?
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Posted By: jk635 @ 08/03/2009 2:25:00 PM
We love you, Ted. Thank you for your commitment to healthcare reform.
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Posted By: jk635 @ 08/03/2009 2:23:41 PM
Thank you, Ted. We love you!
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Posted By: Pia1981 @ 07/28/2009 8:12:10 AM
GM. Wow, Vypurr is back and with a vengeance! Hi there Vypurr, good to read you again even though I don't always agree with you.
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Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/29/2009 4:55:12 PM
"GM. Wow, Vypurr is back and with a vengeance!"
Hello Pia! Yeah, you know me too well... a couple of touchy subjects for me-
Nice to see you here again too!
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Posted By: olderwiser @ 07/26/2009 12:21:40 PM
Well, we've finally lost old Teddy in these posts. It's like he was put over one of those tubs of water in a carnival and everybody who had a beef about him bought three baseballs for a quarter and tried to hit the bulls eye and dunk him. All the balls have been thrown and his picture is still there and his suit is dry. He wants this medical coverage to become a federal right before he dies and I guess that it is a pretty close call. Probably won't be much of a plan before he passes on, half this and half that, public and private. Who knows what it will come to in the far future. The best deal of all is to try not to need medical treatment anyway. If the government does take over some day, I hope that the deal will include a lot of exercise plans and programs and tons of education on what not to eat. There's billions of dollars invested in a lot of fast foods that are pure death to a lot of people, and it's a very profitable business. Too much fat and lacks a lot of nutrition. And they sneak beef fat into the cooking oil every chance they get. Sticks to your arteries and either kills you or makes you really sick over time. One thing that I do notice about the private insurance industry is that they don't try to get everybody to exercise and eat right. The sicker you get, the more policies they sell. But they sell only to the healthiest, leaving the rest to go to the emergency room for free treatment. Sort of sick in a way. You scare healthy people into buying something they don't need because they are healthy while you don't help those who get sick and help you scare the profit out of the healthy customers. Well, that's America. We love profit, often at the expense of others. But then, it beats a lot of other systems, too. But in the long run, in all of the systems, the big eat the small and the strong eat the weak. Socialism is just as bad about that as the other deals. Happy Sunday to all.
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Posted By: bkrummel @ 07/27/2009 5:23:10 AM
"If the government does take over some day, I hope that the deal will include a lot of exercise plans and programs and tons of education on what not to eat."
I have to disagree. Healthy personal habits are not the responsibility of the government or even insurance companies, they are the responsibility of the citizens. You want an exercise plan, join a gym and simply go for a jog. There is plenty of information on how to eat and it basically boils down to having a balanced diet with eating sweets and junk food in moderation. As for fast food, don't eat McDonald's all the time! Obviously eating fast food everyday will kill you. But seriously, a Big Mac on occasion won't kill you. I could say more and more, but most of this is common sense and the basic of the personal responsibility of taking care of one's self. You don't need to pay someone or get the nanny government to do it for you, you just need to get off your ass and do it yourself.
Moreover, I don't want the government to have any role in telling me what to eat or how to exercise. If the government can run health care and support healthy habits, it's a short while before this all gets politicized and you have some health freaks (no offense) imposing their lifestyle on others. It is bad enough that already the soda machines are being removed from the schools (which is ridiculous). We don't need the government involved with this, so let's keep the government out of personal habits.
To be fair, I know what you are trying to get at. Our country has an obesity problem. Much of our health care is focused on treatment after we get sick instead of prevention of getting sick. Our country does need to refocus on healthier habits. Unfortunately there are some incentives for bad health habits and this needs to be corrected. But I repeat that healthy habits to prevent disease is something you can mostly do on your own.-
Posted By: olderwiser @ 07/27/2009 10:02:02 AM
I meant it more in the sense of education, not organized compulsory exercise. We have public education available and without it, we probably could compete with Afghanistan for widespread ignorance, trying to get rich on our main industry, growing opium poppies. I like the term "nanny government". Knew a man who had nanny goats back in the 1930's. Had stomach trouble and the doctor prescribed goat milk. Cured him. Medicine has come a long way since then. We've made a lot of progress and a lot of it with good help from the government. GI bill was probably the most effective. Thanks, uncle sam. I needed that.
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Posted By: bkrummel @ 07/27/2009 2:39:39 PM
Firstly I acknowledge that the government provides good services to its citizens, including public education (which is a local issue), education support for our troops, and research through programs like the National Institute for Health. One would be a fool to suggest that our society should not have these services, provided either through the government or some other means. I am not trying to imply any ridiculous anti-government views.
There is already government-provided education on healthy habits through health classes in the public schools (a joke if you ask me) and the USDA food pyramid. Nonetheless, I learned to have a balanced diet and how to eat from my parents. My parents did in fact teach me to eat properly and not eat junk food all the time. It is well-known that eating fast food all the time is bad and exercise is good. We don't need the government telling people stuff like this. We need people to apply the knowledge they already have.
Moreover, there IS talk of the government providing incentives for exercise and other healthy habits beyond the limited education role it provides, for example incentives to join a gym. I don't think the government can provide such incentives without getting a little carried away.-
Posted By: olderwiser @ 07/27/2009 3:04:25 PM
We live in a great place. The freedom to argue with each other in a somewhat public forum, alone, is pretty nice. Highways. Cheap travel. Impossible to starve. Lot of great people. We're just lucky. I can remember when people worried about getting back home without getting shot by someone hiding behind a hedgerow or in a cave on a Pacific Island, then whether there would be a job if they got back home. You can tell how well off we are today by the things we argue about. Great place.
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Posted By: bkrummel @ 07/27/2009 3:47:56 PM
Yes, I totally agree that America is great. But what does this have to do with health care policy or the specific remarks in my post?
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Posted By: olderwiser @ 07/27/2009 8:32:38 PM
Very little in these posts relates to Ted Kennedy or health care. This site has become more like what you see on many public bathroom walls, minus the vulgarities. No subject required.
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Posted By: bkrummel @ 07/27/2009 9:13:07 PM
Yea, I've noticed. In fact, most of this posts are wildly off-topic partisan nonsense from conservative and liberal wing nuts on topics ranging from George Bush to the California budget. In fact, I think I've read better stuff in public bathroom walls! It's a shame, because there are a lot of important issues to discuss regarding health care.
I think your post was well-intentioned. I'm just mildly disappointed to try to make some intelligent remarks and see the response to them be about how lucky we are and not my remarks.-
Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/29/2009 3:08:03 AM
"In fact, most of this posts are wildly off-topic"
Guilty as charged
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/29/2009 3:05:51 AM
These freedoms exist in all of the democracirs WITH health care.
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Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/27/2009 3:12:02 PM
"Well, we've finally lost old Teddy in these posts. "
When can we lose Teddy in the Senate?
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/28/2009 1:12:02 PM
The latest news says that the "bipartisan" health care "reform" bill to be reported out of the Max Baucus' Senate Finance Committee will NOT contain a public option OR an employer mandate. The ONLY concession the Insurance industry will allow is the requirement that they cover pre-existing conditions. In return they are demanding a personal mandate that everybody must enroll and pay their premiums what ever they are. In the end cost containment will continue to be based on denial of treatment they deem to be "unnecessary" with a focus on "the last year of life" and a system of "best practices" describing the minimum treatment required to delineate "necessary". Also look for a feature sequestering "high risk" patients pre-existing conditions into a pool of policy holders subject to higher premiums to be subsidized by the government. When all is said and done this round of health care "reform" should be called The Health Care Industry Profit Protection Act.
Meanwhile the insurance company PR firms are working over time to create new boogie-persons to be held responsible for our health care dilemma. Ladies and Gentlemen may we present the new improved OBESE black, illegal alien on parole, terminally ill, welfare queen with twelve kids driving a brand new Cadillac through downtown Detroit.
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Posted By: olderwiser @ 07/28/2009 11:09:00 AM
Finally a Kennedy will get to die in office of natural causes. The assassinations were national tragedies.
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Posted By: olderwiser @ 07/28/2009 11:11:43 AM
There is a lot of good to say about a family so wealthy which has championed the cause of the poor and those who do not have much in material wealth. They are definitely in the minority of the wealthy, most of whom will never get enough of wealth and will do anything to get more.
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Posted By: greatmidwest @ 07/23/2009 11:33:22 PM
Will Congress do the right thing and pass the President's proposed Affordable Health Choice Act (AHCA) or will it be blocked by members of the GOP like Sen. DeMint of SC who are trying to play partisan politics with a very real and very troublesome health care mess brewing here in America?
Though far from perfect, the proposed health reform act will bring more accountability to how federal funds are spent on health care and will offer an affordable option to approx. 30 million Americans who have NO HEALTH INSURANCE. Treating someone's medical illness before it results in expensive hospitalizations saves the country money in the long run. What's better for our nation, healthy Americans or unhealthy Americans?
Having an "affordable option" does not threaten the Big HMOs who are crying wolf in order to keep control of the insurance industry. How can a small business owner( during these tough times) afford to pay $600/mo for an employees health insurance plan? How can the employee
(and his/her family) afford to pay the $2500 deductible on the less expesnive health plan that the business will switch him/her to in order to save money??
The federal government runs the USPS which provides affordable mail services for all Americans. Has this version of an "affordable option" led to the demise of UPS, FedEX, or DHL??? Nope, and a health care version of it won't hurt Blue Cross/Blue Shield, Aetna, or Cigna as their DC lobbyists claim......America needs health reform not more of the same old Washington politics.-
Posted By: John14John @ 07/24/2009 12:13:53 PM
Hands down fact that these sites are polluted with paid people / orgs. This is clearly an example. Any major site has government parasites / leaches / losers trying to get more of your money. Why? Because they are failures in life. The freest country, for now, on earth and they STILL can't make it. The sign of a true loser. We need to REVOLT NOW. Save this country. WAKE UP.
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Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/24/2009 2:33:00 PM
"Hands down fact that these sites are polluted with paid people / orgs."
How do you get hired to do that? My politics are very flexible.-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/24/2009 3:09:38 PM
"My politics are very flexible."
That much is certain.-
Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/24/2009 6:18:46 PM
What, because I don't agree with either "side" on every issue? How very unamerican I must be to not fanatically adhere to every opinion of one party or the other. There ought to be a law.
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Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/24/2009 7:02:59 PM
C'mon Hag, you don't agree with either side on a lot of issues. Either that, or you just like to argue.
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Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/27/2009 12:44:17 PM
That's because I'm not on either side, because neither side is on my side. One side thinks I should let the government listen to my phone calls, torture people, and push their religion down my throat, and the other side wants to take my guns, tell me how I can raise my kids (It takes a village, doncha know) and can't seem to balance a checkbook.
Neither one can seem to get their heads out of their collective asses on the economy, and both sides participated in screwing up what was once the finest school system on Earth. Both sides want to make me "safe", which pisses me off because I never asked to be "safe". Freedom is not now, nor ever has been a "safe" proposal. Both "sides" need to leave me the hell alone.
A plague on both of your houses.-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/27/2009 6:26:24 PM
Hag, are you a citizen of the US? You speak as if you're not with statements like "a plague on both of your houses." If you are an American citizen, you appear to be incredibly miserable here as you seem to hate most everything about our system. If so, you might try finding another country that better suits your values. Just sayin...
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Posted By: bkrummel @ 07/27/2009 11:53:37 PM
Hagbard Celine, I couldn't agree more. A plague on both political parties' houses indeed.
Vypurr, I agree with Hagbard's post, yet I truly love America. It is not a plague on America that I wish, just a plague on the Republican and Democrat parties. Unfortunately, too many of us citizens do not feel at all represented by either the Republican or Democrat parties. We do not identify as members of either party, though we are still Americans. Both parties ignore the Constitution, infringe upon individual liberty, and leave programs that the government is supposed to address left unaddressed for decades. They are a bunch of incompetent trouble makers. I say this not because I hate our system, but because I truly love my country.
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Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/24/2009 7:57:44 AM
Greatmidwest, There are also a lot of people, 30 to 40 million, who are offerred health care through their employers that don't purchase it. Granted, if it is a minimum, or near minimum wage job, it would be hard to purchase the insurance on those wages. However, does that person who doesn't take the insurance have cable tv and the expanded NFL package? Does he spend 150 a month on cigarettes? Does he blow 75 dollars at the local waterring hole on Friday night? Life is about choices my friend. Let's face it. Some people make some bad ones.
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Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/24/2009 2:33:49 PM
"However, does that person who doesn't take the insurance have cable tv and the expanded NFL package? Does he spend 150 a month on cigarettes? Does he blow 75 dollars at the local waterring hole on Friday night?"
Or maybe that person has to buy diapers, formula, etc.
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Posted By: Shanshayla @ 07/24/2009 12:19:01 AM
Actually, a good portion of the democrats are involved in doing "the right thing" by also taking a hard look at this bill that even Obama hasn't read yet. That is why he failed at getting it through congress before the August recess. He's not going to get a repeat of his Porkulus bill run through without giving people a chance to read and understand this enormously complicated bill.. I suggest you take a breath and join us.
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/24/2009 11:12:46 PM
FACTS we need to know
1. Our government already spends 10.8 per cent of GDP on health care (40% of the total cost). OUR governments (Federal State and local) ALREADY spend the money on health care that it would take to fully fund a single payer system just like the ones the REST OF THE CIVILIZED WORLD already enjoys. In other words, if we weren't so selfish, frightened, stupid and corrupt we cold have a decent and HUMANE health care system at no additional cost.
2. We ALREADY spend 70% more on health care per capita than the next most expensive system in the world and 50 million of us aren't even covered. Our health care costs now represent nearly 18% of our GDP while the rational the world experiences a cost between 7 and 10% of GDP
3. We rank number 37th between Costa Rica and Slovinia in measurable health care outcomes.
Given these numbers there is only one question left to ask.
Can someody PLEASE tell me what makes us SO stupid?-
Posted By: Skybox @ 07/25/2009 12:24:33 AM
Thanks free:
These are basic realities that every educated American should know. For a democratic republic to function an educated citizenry is required.
The fundamental reason we are so "stupid" is that our education delivery process is a catastrophe. The disparity between the best education money can buy and the rest is enormous. Yes, most of our people are considerably less well educated than citizens of Europe, many parts of Asia, even places like Iran (and Iraq before we raped it and left it for dead).
To get at the core of the problem we have to look at our true national priorities.
Even puny little Cuba ranks considerably higher on the health scale largely because the health of its people has been a priority of the socialist/communist government. Cubans are better educated, with more doctors, attorneys, engineers, Phds per capita than in our once justifiably proud nation.
Our national leaders gad about spouting "human rights" to everyone else when we have the highest per capita prison population in the history of the world and it is growing at accelerating speed... while California's genius government proposes letting 27, 000 prisoners out into the streets to save the state from the scourge of taxes...
This is America today. Dumbed down so far down looks like up to us.
In short, we are opiated, we have been invaded and defeated by a culture that values toys over people while corporate masters and their drones call it "freedom." You can buy some if you can afford it.
Undoubtedly, this is not what the idealistic Founders had in mind.
So-called "strict constructionism" (otherwise known as keeping the masters happy and secure) has eroded personal privacy, personal liberty and promoted a market owned by the Madoffs of the world.
We are stupid, by and large, and proud of it. Some with money and connections can still get a world-class education in America. They are another America, primarily coastal, worldly, all to smug, and laughing up their sleeve at people who post in places like this. But this isn't for them. It is a place for powerless proles to blow off steam... and so we do.
Read the posts here by the "literate" folks. Yes, it is depressing.
Pathetic health care, laughable education for most, a market in shambles. What we have to show for almost 250 years of experimentation with once grand, now soured, ideals.
Of course, we still have nuclear weapons and lots of cool toys for sale. That's about what many of the sad folks here seem to want for their country.
That and the assurance that the military and the police cannot enter our homes and take us away to jail for bad mouthing the authorities... or maybe not. This isn't Cuba, yet.-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/25/2009 10:39:04 AM
"We are stupid, by and large, and proud of it."
"Stupid" people did not make America the most advanced nation on the planet. "Stupid people" did not make our health care the finest in the world. "Stupid" people did not lay down their lives (more than any other nation) to help other countries. The "Stupid" people of America, as you see them, helps and continues to give more than any other nation. That's just a few of the thousands of credible things that your ignorant vision of what "stupid" Americans have accomplished and done. Yes, we have problems and are trying to work through them. We don't need griping, stupid shits with no answers like you.
You call Americans stupid, but it's you who epitomizes the term. You're so incredibly stupid you can't see all of the good in America, only what's wrong with her. You're not an example of an American, you are a tiny, whiny, imbecilic moron with a massive mouth but is incapable of saying an intelligent word. Your defeatist diatribe didn't contain one solution, only griping and fault finding.
As a dependent, whining, do-nothing socialist, please move your pompous ass to the country you spoke so highly of - Cuba. If you don't like the military shoving your door down, (a small trade-off, considering that seems to be the only thing about Cuba you don't like) you might also consider Venezula. You would fit in nicely in either regime, and you certainly won't be missed here.
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Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/27/2009 4:57:45 PM
""Stupid" people did not make America the most advanced nation on the planet."
No, that was their grandparents. The last 2 generations have been coasting.
"Stupid people" did not make our health care the finest in the world."
Nobody did. Sweden has that title.
"Stupid" people did not lay down their lives (more than any other nation) to help other countries."
Other than WWII, we have done more plundering than helping. Mexico, the Phillipines (where we killed 12-15% of their population to prove that they weren't ready to rule themselves), countless "interventions" in Central America, etc. -
Posted By: Skybox @ 07/25/2009 2:41:03 PM
...forgive my overheated prose. Please forgive me if I just get a little weary of the stupid.
On an occasion like this, I often feel the uncontrollable urge to blow a little smoke up their noses.
You know who you are. This really jerks your chain.-
Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/25/2009 6:41:31 PM
Spot on, 40, spot on. We know who you are. You are a hate peddling race baiting low-life living in your mom's basement. Next question!
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/25/2009 3:13:09 AM
The funny thing is that I AM a teacher from California, teaching at one of the top high schools in the nation. The reason we are doing great is that our students are mostly first generation immigrants from places like China, Korea, Israel, India and Eastern Europe.
We ended up on the front page of the Wall Street Journal under the headline ???The New White Flight??? since some native born white folks claimed they were leaving town because competing with our kids was just too hard on their children who were missing ???the real American high school experience??? with its emphasis on things like football and dating.
Many native born parents and their kid like to console themselves by characterizing our motivated students as being humorless dutiful robots, but they are just whistling Dixie. Our kids ARE just like all fun loving young people everywhere who happen to come from places where things aren???t so easy and they simply know how to out work their ???American??? counter parts.
As a result we don???t have expend much energy dealing with classroom management and discipline. We can concentrate on actually teaching our kids and challenging them. We rarely have to dumb things down, in fact the contrary is generally true. It takes real work to stay one step ahead of many of our kids and in some cases we simply have give them the tools they need and get out of their way.
We don???t take all the much credit for what goes on here for it???s mostly driven by the family life supporting this educational institution. They make us look great, but we???re just ordinary teachers in a very fortunate environment.
Meanwhile at least one of our two major parties is selling willful ???Joe Six Pack??? ignorance as a virtue.-
Posted By: Skybox @ 07/25/2009 3:20:25 PM
As evidenced by the response(?), this is a touchy issue. Hits us where it hurts, does it not?
Nonetheless, this board is not representative of the ideals of patriot America. And there is, unlikely as it may seem reading these posts, a better America.
Thankfully, most Americans do not live to slime, lying in wait to outdo their crude fellows in crude behavior. There are other places of which they know not. There are other places and people they cannot imagine where Americans are sacrificing for true freedom.
On behalf of those who love America with patriot fire, we salute you and all those who work in the educational trenches!
You are making a difference. Note here the examples of ignorance alive and festering in our nation. In the fight for our future, you are indeed heroes, all of you. Every day.
I know.
We salute you!-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/25/2009 3:57:42 PM
"As evidenced by the response(?), this is a touchy issue. Hits us where it hurts, does it not?"
No, the issues don't make people touchy. Calling the American people stupid and proud of it will make people touchy. It was an inaccurate, thoughtless and extremely ignorant thing to say.
"Note here the examples of ignorance alive and festering in our nation."
You just described your own posts.
And you call others "stupid?"-
Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/25/2009 7:37:27 PM
Vypurr, he's had 3 different names in the lpast week. Unfortunately for him, he can't hide the hate after he changes his name. It just kind of bubbles up to the surface like his flatulence. He is pretty gross!
He always magically shows up to defend himself as 40YearR though. He tries. I have to give OCD that!-
Posted By: 40YearR @ 07/25/2009 7:47:10 PM
You just displayed another difference between us, covert.
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Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/25/2009 7:48:29 PM
Spot on, 40, spot on!
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Posted By: 40YearR @ 07/25/2009 7:30:38 PM
Howdy Vypurr,
Haven't seen you around in a while. Good to see you back. Me? I've been too busy, maybe like you. But you can be sure of one thing: I've had only one name here at NW, the same one I've always used.
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Posted By: Skybox @ 07/25/2009 3:35:35 PM
One of those salutes was meant to be a "thanks."
Therefore, I will underscore 2 salutes with a sincere Thank You!-
Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/25/2009 3:57:53 PM
40OCD, I salute you too! As our old friend use to say, "Which finger am I holding up?"
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Posted By: gregcovert @ 07/25/2009 10:38:17 AM
A little windy, 40OCD, as usual. Old Calumniate Democrat.
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Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/25/2009 10:42:00 AM
We're working on our health care issues. Because we have those issues does not make Americans stupid. As for addressing your own stupidity, you might try looking in the mirror.
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Posted By: unite4change @ 07/18/2009 4:29:10 PM
Now the CBO director is changing his tune the House bill would add $65 billion to the deficit over 10 years or $6.5 billion a year. But he still admits to not looking at the whole plan and other budget savings.
http://cboblog.cbo.gov/
While Republicans had no problem with added over $2.4 trillion dollars to the deficit over ten years with the Iraq War.
Folks, please pass this on: READ the America's Affordable Health Choices Act, H.R. 3200.
Short version: http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BILLSUMMARY-071409.pdf
Long version (scroll down to Learn more, Read Bill text): http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=1864-
Posted By: Sandcrab1612 @ 07/19/2009 12:17:37 AM
IAgree that the CBO says that the current bills under consideration will not reduce costs and would probably increase cost in the long run should be a signal to Congress that they don't have it right and need to start over and do it right. With the growing federal government debt we cannot afford to get it wrong. They also said that the reason they couldn't provide specific answers on long term costs was that they had only had the bill for a very short time and that with the rush to pass it would be unable to complete a through review in the time frame Obama is demanding.
In his first 170 days in office Obama has increased the debt of the government by 901.25 Billion dollars. At this rate he will increase the debt of the Government by 1.82 Trillion dollars in his first year alone and 7.74 Trillion dollars by the end of his 4 year term in office. If he is elected for a second term with the same rate of spending then the government debt will increase by 15.48 Trillion dollars. Since the debt owed by the Government was 10.6 Trillion dollars when he took office an additional 7.74 Trillion will almost double the debt in just 4 years to 18.34 Trillion dollars and at the end of his second term it will have increased to an unthought of 26.08 Trillion dollars. The interest alone on this amount of debt will consume more than half of the entire federal budget. This does not even include what Obama wants to put into healthcare which has been estimated may actually cost upwards of 1.6 Billion dollars by the Congressional Budget Office. This is money that the Government does not have and cannot conceivably have without raising taxes to the point where everyone in the country will be paying a much higher tax rate than they are currently paying. No matter how you want to put it any healthcare reform will require government involvement which will lead to required government spending so the money is an important issue, if it???s not there then healthcare will have to wait until such time as it is available. Obama promised change but this is ridiculous he makes all who came before him look minor on their spending while in office. Time to stop spending and do what should have been done long ago, cut spending which is not specifically authorized in article 1 of the constitution.-
Posted By: CarmanK1 @ 07/19/2009 3:55:54 AM
Obama's plan is revenue neutral over ten years. Health care for all will be paid for by individual premiums, a new tax on the 1.8%e of the population that has been living it up . Instead of reinvesting those tax cuts which would then trickle down. The economic aristocrats solidified their position at the top. Now the ill advised tax cuts for the wealthy will expire, a new tax will help cover health care, premiums will be paid by clients and real cost savings implemented. At least we're not going to have to deal with the very expensive, inefficient governance that led the country under the Bushies.
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Posted By: madgirl @ 07/27/2009 1:49:22 PM
Um, no it's not. Read sections 101, 102, 201, 202, and 203. It will be complete government control of all private and public plans (if you get insurance from your employer) within five years. Private insurance plans will disappear because people will not want to pay more for the exact same plans the government is offering on the public plan. When that happens, we will end up with a single-payer system, like Canada and Britian. Take a look at how those systems do financially, and then tell me if you think they are revenue-neutral, when you look at the huge wait times and rationing and denial of coverage those on it face because it costs too much for their governments!
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Posted By: sregis @ 07/27/2009 4:18:53 PM
ask nearly anybody in the uk or canada if they'd like to swap systems w/ us...
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Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/27/2009 4:50:45 PM
Ask an uninsured American if they'd swap with Canada.
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Posted By: freecitizen @ 07/27/2009 2:53:22 PM
Obama's biggest mistake is that he is continuing the financial and foreign policies put in place by G.W. Bush. He could improve things by shipping 90% of the folks on Wall Street to Guantanamo Bay along with half the former administrartion.
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Posted By: bkrummel @ 07/27/2009 2:52:54 PM
"Now the CBO director is changing his tune the House bill would add $65 billion to the deficit over 10 years or $6.5 billion a year. But he still admits to not looking at the whole plan and other budget savings."
Right. But it seems to me that the CBO keeps reporting worse and worse things about the bill. Moreover, the CBO estimate is probably an under-estimate for a program like this. If the current CBO estimate shows that the bill isn't deficit neutral, I doubt the final bill will be actually deficit neutral without significant changes from the current version.
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Posted By: Vigilance @ 07/27/2009 4:34:47 PM
Here's the issue for the GOP:
Our current system is broken. Whether or not you oppose universal government coverage, you cannot stand idly by and say things are fine. If you choose to oppose coverage, as most of you do, you'd better come up with AND get behind reform of our current system, including massive reform of the insurers who won't insure anyone who's actuallly sick, and pass off nearly fraudulent policies that in fact hardly cover anything.
If not, whether or not the Dems fail, you will not be seen as a compelling alternative.-
Posted By: Vigilance @ 07/27/2009 4:46:07 PM
Personally, I think Obama and Pelosi are pushing too hard and making this too ideological. I'd rather see them champion regulating the insurers instead. But still, our current system is very nearly a national crisis. "Do nothing" is not an acceptable strategy for the GOP.
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Posted By: Vigilance @ 07/27/2009 4:49:45 PM
And, finally, I would love to see a national push for more exercise, more focused relaxation of whatever kind, be it meditation or massage or what-have-you - just a national drive to do things that cost very little or nothing and that could help ease our various health crises without straining anyone's pocketbook.
Eat better. Exercise three times a week. Take time to relax and don't overwork yourself if at all possible. Regular self-care could probably prevent a quarter or more of the conditions that people end up seeing doctors for. These things could probably save us billions if enough of us took the time to follow them.
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Posted By: Heatherkreider @ 07/27/2009 2:03:05 PM
What an amazing Senator. I hope Senator Kennedy sees Health Care reform pass and he is standing beside President Obama when the bill is signed. This article shows the passion he has had for Health Reform his entire career.
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Posted By: madgirl @ 07/27/2009 1:46:08 PM
Hypocritical. I feel for him in his illness, but he wants reform that he would be exempt from. Look at current legislation. All congresspersons and senators are exempt!
If he thinks it is good enough for the public, it should be good enough for him.
Time to pony up and put your money where his mouth is. Problem is, he won't do it- because the current plans would be a death sentence for him.
The current legislation would control private health care insurance companies into non-existence, all having to provide plans written by the government, and your employer would have to switch to either a public plan or those controlled by the government within five years BY LAW. I do not call that being able to keep your own plan, or choice. If I can chose between the same thing provided by different companies, that is not choice! Don't believe me? Read sections 101, 102, 201, 202, and 203 of HR 3200. If you don't understand legalese, have an attorney explain it to you.
What this does is slowly force private insurance companies out of existence. People will not want to pay more for the exact same thing the government is providing. Then almost all will be on a public plan, which will undercut doctor pay and service like medicare and medicaid do. This will mean doctors will not be able to provide as good care or services, and there will be rationing like Canada and Britain.
I don't think Senator Kennedy would want to have to wait 18 months for imaging after her first had problems, or would want to be denied "experimental" treatment that could prolong his life. Do you?
None of us would. That is why they should scrap current plans, and keep government OUT of private health insurance. No regulation of private health care, no regulation on employers or individuals on what plans they can use. Then we, the American people, might be willing to listen.
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Posted By: Skybox @ 07/23/2009 4:39:08 PM
The stars, they do line up! The Dow slams through 9 grand, a Wise catch saves a perfect game for a White Sox pitcher...
Whatever game you play (perhaps not bowling) you would be a fool (yes, "stupid") not to choose Obama first for your team.
From a lawyerly point of view, what he did last night was breathtakingly brilliant.
With ego in check, he calmly said nothing and everything in the same breath, cycling through layers of moldy politics, legal jargon, economic haze as if he were helping his kids do their homework.
No bombast, no "decider" foolishness, just a patient father, brother, uncle, son, trying to explain the ineffably complex in a way that everybody could find something in the bag their size.
He's no sailor, but he knows how to sail: tacking this way and that---still, still moving.
Clinton was intelligent and used his bright mind like a blunt instrument; used his savvy like a cat burglar. Obama is smart enough to keep the wind at his back and trust the forward movement. He puts the progress in progressive.
Once again, without playing to the peanut galleries, Obama proved his mettle.
A man for this age.
Wind be ever at your back, Mr. President, Godspeed Senator Kennedy, and God bless America!-
Posted By: Skybox @ 07/23/2009 5:54:37 PM
Obama's "stupid" comment was just a touch too truthful.
Racist white boys scream because they love the cops so much.
I'm a white boy and if a cop comes to my house when I am breaking in... I'll be glad to see him.
If he starts with the cowboy talk, I'll be a bit put off.
If, after I (finally) show him my ID and give hims some sass, he slaps the cowboys cuffs on me and drags my butt out of my own home, in front of my neighbors, maybe members of my family at home...
"Stupid" would be the least of it. "Stupid" would not be the end of it.
And so would it be for all the racist white boys who are making messy in their pants about a black guy calling a cop stupid.
Even racist white boys get rattled when the cops play cowboys (when it is about them or another white boy getting slapped around).
This cop was stupid.
Obama sent a message last night. It wasn't politic. But it wasn't stupid either.
You would think the Palin droolers would know stupid when they see it.-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/23/2009 7:18:47 PM
They asked the man for ID and he refused, screaming racism. In any event, you weren't there, and neither was Obama. If that had been a real criminal, would Gates and Obama have been happy if the creep had just said, "I'm the owner of this home, get out", and then the police leave without checking ID? Not.
And WTF does Palin have to do with this?-
Posted By: Skybox @ 07/23/2009 7:25:51 PM
The cop was stupid, when after, after, after, he checked the ID, Gates cursed him.
Read that slowly without moving your lips and tell me how you would have reacted to that kind of cop stupidity?
That is what the President said, after, after, after, the man presented his ID, they cuffed him. In his own home.
Even racist white boys would call that cowboy silliness stupid if it were directed toward them or one of theirs. Am I wrong, vipper?-
Posted By: Vypurr @ 07/24/2009 8:02:11 PM
Obama is now back peddling saying, "I could have said that differently." Ahhh, yeah.
Gates was screaming for his racist 15 minutes of fame, and now he's got it.
So much for all your cowboy bullshit.-
Posted By: Hagbard Celine @ 07/27/2009 12:54:54 PM
"Obama is now back peddling saying, "I could have said that differently." "
Blarg. The dems will never learn. Never apologize in politics.
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Posted By: 40YearR @ 07/24/2009 12:22:32 AM
Well written post Skybox. Enjoyed reading it.
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Posted By: Shanshayla @ 07/23/2009 10:53:29 PM
"From a lawyerly point of view, what he did last night was breathtakingly brilliant."
Lawyerly? Well, from a lawyer point of view, you're correct. He stood there for an hour last night and said nothing. He answered no questions. So in that regard, yes, a lawyer would have approved. lol
Actually, Obama attacked and lied. He whined about inheriting a 1.3 trillion dollar deficit, which was a lie. No president has ever had a trillion dollar deficit, until now anyway. (Bush's was less than 500 billion). There was nothing about tort reform. All he droned on about was how we need this plan of his and how well it's going to work. There was no mention of the two reports from independent budget directors that contradicted his claims. He doesn't debate them, he negates them. No president in his right mind would have jumped on the situation in cambridge until after a full investigation - but he did because his "friend" was involved, calling the Cambridge Police Dept. "stupid."
Obama proved his mettle? I guess if you call whining and not answering even one question last night proving his mettle...
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