Inside Karen’s Crowded Mind

Hi Claudette-

Do you really wish to harm no one? Do you not see how hurtful some of your comments have been? We're sure you've hurt people on this board. (though you might not have chased everybody away -these discussions tend to die down as time passes)

Do you really believe ridicule and name calling are a effective ways of helping someone take a clear and compassionate look at their own (and other's) lives? And that your comments are completely unconnected from your own inner turmoil? I/we don't.

What has ridicule done for me/us in our life?
-induced deep sadness and pain, made us cry, contributed to depression, I'm sure
-induced shame (which sometimes has shut us up, probably satisfying the ridiculers, but didn't
do us (or them) any real good- not in terms of making us better people)
-induced severe isolation. We felt alone in the world, and cut ourselves off from other people.
-induced resistance in the form of immediate anger- fighting with the ridiculers. And in the form of
bringing out (and creating) prickly, suspicious, untrusting, and defense aspects of ourselves
which puts people off, and I'm sure were and are unpleasant for anybody who runs across them.

That's all I/we can think of right now, and none of it is enjoyable or helpful. (except once in a while we do like to get into an argument...) All in all, ridicule has been more than 95% hurtful, sometimes extremely so.

-AD21

P.S. How I wish to this day that I could have furthered my education when I was a teen. My parents, (because they said I was a girl and didn't need much education), was forced to quit school even though I was on the honor role. Why, because I was the eldest and was needed for helping to support the 11 children with half my wages for 4 years before I was married. In todays dollars it would probably come to about $60,000.00 for the 10 years I was raised by them. My first 6 years were spent with wonderful maternal grandparents, the next next 10 years with an abusive father who drank, gambled, physically and verbally abused about half of us. Poor mother was too overworked and weak to stand up to him until many years later. For the sake of my Mom and all my siblings I hung in there and helped, married at 20, waited 5 years to have my babies back to back and I truly did my best for anyone that touched my life.
That is never enough when a family is burdened with a child who exhibits mental illness most of her life from God only knows what reasons. Maybe overdose of phenobarbital for febrile convulsions, to what we thought was a minor head injury when she was a youngster, followed by the worse outside influences known to man, bad company, drugs, and mental health quacks. It's a deadly combination.
Thank God, I did get great relief and love from a perfectly great son.
A 31 year marriage was destroyed by this tragedy and statistically not too many marriages survive this kind of onslaught.

Ahh, Choonzer:: Actual credentials, time and time again has often proven to not be the stupidity or danger, it's the individual behind it! You see it's a grey area with different angles! Believe me also that the MAJORITY and the best Mental Health Professionals of the world don't agree with your thinking regarding many issues and especially DID being a terrible embarrassment in the truly enlightened circles.
I'm not confused about the "black and white" thinking having a lot to do with race or skin color. Read the book Biko who was martyred during aparteid in South Africa and his statements on these english phrases.
I do love reading and learning.

In answer to Choonzer's comment - "Iatrogenic DID certainly occurs, as you apparently can attest, and I've seen a fair number of what I believed to be those as well. But I haven't seen all that many, maybe a couple dozen" - - During your own years as a mental health professional, 'ONLY' a few DOZEN cases of therapy-induced DID? How did you handle these 'discoveries'? Where did you direct them to go for help in removing the false memories of abuse that their own therapy implanted? Might this part of your history be important to post here with your other assertions? Wouldn't that be far more beneficial to any abuse victim who is interested in understanding how memory works and making an informed decision regarding their therapy options? Your apparent compulsion to 'one up' Claudette is undermining any potentially professional interest you have here. This is ust my opinion. And I didn't even have to resort to textual labeling or name-calling.

Iatrogenic DID certainly occurs, as you apparently can attest, and I've seen a fair number of what I believed to be those as well. But I haven't seen all that many, maybe a couple dozen. But we're talking about thousands of clients I've had contact with over the years, between my own and the clients of my colleagues at the various clinics I've worked in. Your assertion that true DID is rare, and that it would be "impossible" for me to have known of a half-dozen cases over the years puzzles me. I'd estimate, conservatively, that I've known at least 3000 clients. 6 amongst those comes to 1 in 500, or 0.2%. That's pretty rare, given the nationwide estimate for prevalence of mental disorders is 26%. But regardless of your own biases, I'm the one that saw these clients, evaluated them or staffed them with other professionals, and knew their histories, so I'm certainly better qualified than you to say whether or not their cases were legit.

I've never suggested a timeframe for Claudette's grieving, or anyone else's for that matter. Are you suggesting that her indiscriminate personal attacks at everyone on this website are part of her grieving process? If so, should they be overlooked? You're certainly entitled to your own opinion on both counts, as am I.

As for my own rhetoric being "immature and gamey," I believe we've conclusively proven that Claudette is incapable of engaging in rational debate. Even though you share her views, you should at least be able to see that much. As to my needs, I've freely confessed for some time now that they've degenerated to little more than pure entertainment - although I'm always hopeful that legitimate dialogue will emerge at some point. I also feel the need to continue validating any of the unfortunate "legitimate" DID folks who may still be following this post, even though Claudette's mean-spirited attacks have stopped their participation.

Enter Your Comment???I understand DID is a controversial issue, and there are folks who disbelieve its validity - a moot point since it IS currently valid.??? - Choozner, I believe in the validity of DID as my own was iatrogenic. Please address the incidence of iatrogenic DID and false memory.

???Her continued participation in this nonsense of a discussion board suggests she's getting some need of her own met.??? - When should her grieving discontinue? Is your side of the controversy the only one that warrants ongoing discussion (or personal venting)?

???I've seen what I would classify as true DID cases only a half-dozen times over a very long career.??? - Refer to DID ???specialists??? who claim DID is extremely rare. Your chances of working with six in your own practice is highly improbable, if not entirely impossible. I have no problem, however, believing that you ???found??? at least this amount of iatrogenic DID patients.

???You see, I am able to have civil dialogue. It's always been my preference.???- Preference? While posturing with credentials and years of professional experience, you don???t find your rhetoric immature and gamey - counterproductive of sharing any potentially useful information you might lend to the debate at hand? ???Regardless of her history, she is not exempt from receiving hostility when that's all she exudes.??? - Wow. What needs of yours are being met here Choozner?

Enter Your Comment???I understand DID is a controversial issue, and there are folks who disbelieve its validity - a moot point since it IS currently valid.??? - Choozner, I believe in the validity of DID as my own was iatrogenic. Please address the incidence of iatrogenic DID and false memory.

???Her continued participation in this nonsense of a discussion board suggests she's getting some need of her own met.??? - When should her grieving discontinue? Is your side of the controversy the only one that warrants ongoing discussion (or personal venting)?

???I've seen what I would classify as true DID cases only a half-dozen times over a very long career.??? - Refer to DID ???specialists??? who claim DID is extremely rare. Your chances of working with six in your own practice is highly improbable, if not entirely impossible. I have no problem, however, believing that you ???found??? at least this amount of iatrogenic DID patients.

???You see, I am able to have civil dialogue. It's always been my preference.???- Preference? While posturing with credentials and years of professional experience, you don???t find your rhetoric immature and gamey - counterproductive of sharing any potentially useful information you might lend to the debate at hand? ???Regardless of her history, she is not exempt from receiving hostility when that's all she exudes.??? - Wow. What needs of yours are being met here Choozner?

Hi induced. Long time no see.

I believe I've always been interested in true dialogue, as you suggest. However your own biases are plainly evidenced by the fact that you suggest my agenda and erlaia's have been to "trash" Claudette. My efforts with Claudette have been, from start to finish, aimed at her methods, not her opinion. I understand DID is a controversial issue, and there are folks who disbelieve its validity - a moot point since it IS currently valid. But Claudette, from the very beginning of this discussion board, has berated and insulted anyone who suggests they might have symptoms of DID. Her rhetoric has been - by far - the most inflammatory and negative. I have posted about things I've seen from her - namely her attacking nature and her name-calling. She has commented ad nauseum about people's trauma, treatment, motives, families, histories, credentials... in other words, things she knows nothing about. Yet you continue to paint her as the "grieving mother" and the victim. She may be those things, and my earlier posts to Claudette were much softer, but her attacking continued. Regardless of her history, she is not exempt from receiving hostility when that's all she exudes. Besides, I'm not sure she needs or wants a white knight. Her continued participation in this nonsense of a discussion board suggests she's getting some need of her own met.

With regards to what you call my "vested interest" in one side or the other of this debate, let me clarify for you. I've seen what I would classify as true DID cases only a half-dozen times over a very long career. They have made up a miniscule fraction of my work. As I've said repeatedly, I never suggest memories to my patients, nor do I participate in any leading exercises which might be construed as manipulative or dangerous. If the DID diagnosis were to be eliminated, it would not change my life or my practices one bit, except that in the very rare instances when I'm confronted with someone of that symptomatology, I'd have to call it something different. The only reason I'm persuaded that this diagnosis will remain recognized is that the true cases of DID I've seen were very convincing, and clearly not caused iatrogenically because there was no history of treatment for DID in their pasts. So I have no vested interest, just an opinion based on a fair amount of experience in the field.

You see, I am able to have civil dialogue. It's always been my preference. If you and Claudette don't believe in DID, that's just fine. Many folks don't. But please don't assume, as Claudette does, that your own experience makes you an expert on everyone else, or that everyone who claims to believe in or suffer from DID is a numbskull, moron, dimwit...(see Claudette's posts for complete list).

(part 3 - continued) Claudette will always be grieving her losses and campaigning against the bad therapy / therapists that caused those tragic losses.

Choozner has a vested interest in not questioning the false memory phenomenon or its victimization. But trust me when I tell you - DID may very well end up OFF the diagnostic manual within the next five to ten years. Brain science is making great strides.

Erlaia and Erlaia's "System" will possibly flourish within 'their' own confines. Erlaia's refusal to openly discuss the pitfalls of repressed memory therapy or the possibilities or occurrences of iatrogenic DID is a shame. He is highly intelligent and while sharing his own experience, could learn from others as well.
This controversy is far from black and white. When I tried to pose several questions here - rather than dialog, I was given a mental evaluation. Why not use this forum to gain knowledge and understanding?

Just several observations... my own, personal opinions that mean no more or less than those of anyone posting here.

Choonzer - the considerable amount of time you're dedicating to teaming up with Erlaia to gnaw at (and intellectually joust with) the grieving mother of her deceased daughter and grand daughter - victims of malpractice via repressed memory therapy, serves to put you in a less than professional, caring or responsible light. How beneficial can you be to YOUR patients when you cannot remain civil and at least somewhat balanced while dealing with a victim of malpractice of such magnitude on a blog site?
Might it be semi-important for you to address the incidence of iatrogenic DID or false memory? Doesn't representation of BOTH SIDES provide 'informed consent' in your field? Have you shared your complete disdain for the entire False Memory Syndrome Foundation with all of your clients - confident that the whole organization is corrupt because of the 'nut' who was exposed and removed? You essentially trash the entire FMSF as 'conspirators', but berate those who would question the legitimacy of naturally-occurring DID, or the questionable modalities used to diagnose and treat such. When might you address some of the controversy's true issues, instead of berating those who do not subscribe to your one-sided beliefs?

My, My, I sure evoked such a negative torrent. Maybe rather than driving off everyone except you two and some (imaginary beings), maybe I've actually sent some to do more investigation and maybe helped them escape this trash heap of yours. I did say maybe, and I do hope. because like your two, I'm not prone to Assume this and that, I just know what's right and wrong, what's real and unreal, what's dangerous and traditionally safe (and should be built on).
You two stick with your new age ideas of the mind being a suitcase ready to be unlocked of so many secrets, what rubbish! And of course only RMT/DID professionals can dig for that dirt!
Good Night, I'm truly getting board and when I see all this tirade, I do believe I've hit a nerve of (maybe) sanity! Wouldn't that be nice!
Sweet Dreams, don't let the Monsters bite!

And, by the way, Claudette, I do believe that you have driven off everyone by choonzer and myself. I know I remain out of a slight bizarre fascination with being an agent provocateur. A simple pleasure, but one that I find quite amusing, right about now.

So sorry, Claudette, for the different posts, but different parts of me wanted to post...... and so I gave each of them an opportunity. Thought that was fair, doncha know.....

I hope, Claudette, that when I return on Friday, you will have filled this post with more bile, more vile invective, more hostility, and more baseless charges. The more you write, the more you confirm my personal perception that you are, personally, truly didactically demented..... and to that end, I remain delighted that you represent the issues that you do, as it suggests that you and your ilk are a ragtag collection of wild-eyed fanatics. Soooooooooo stand next to that chap on the Board of FMSF who supported NAMBLA, stand next to discredited therapists whose research has been shredded in the courts virtually every time she presents as an "expert witness" (loftus, that researcher who continues to believe that a test case of 7 participants creates a truly scientific basis for intellectual dialogue.....) and others, others too numerous to name.
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