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CAPITAL SOURCES

'This Is Not a Bluff'

A Christian political leader on the threat of a third party.

By Jeffrey Bartholet and Eve Conant | Newsweek Web Exclusive
Oct 22, 2007 | Updated: 4:06  p.m. ET Oct 22, 2007

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Member Comments
  • Posted By: rcjorgensen @ 02/23/2008 9:28:35 PM

    Comment: Want CHANGE vote for a Third Party Candidate and return power to the people. Change is not Obama from Harvard wanting to ride the wave of change and have 33 million in his campaign. It's not Hillary from Bush's almamater Yale either. Don't vote for Mc Cain he's a republican, atleast read John Dean's book "Broken Gorernment" before you vote for Mc. Cain. Vote for Rob! www.rcjorgensen2008.com
    Bring Justice back to our Politics and trust back to our Dollar. Third Pary Candidates get no media, wake up to the abuses of Power, supression of the Freedom of Press and the bending of the law. Write in Vote for the best candidate for reel change. In Rob we Trust! Fishing for change. Vote for a Swiss American

  • Posted By: rcjorgensen @ 02/23/2008 9:26:54 PM

    Comment: Want CHANGE vote for a Third Party Candidate and return power to the people. Change is not Obama from Harvard wanting to ride the wave of change and have 33 million in his campaign. It's not Hillary from Bush's almamater Yale either. Don't vote for Mc Cain he's a republican, atleast read John Dean's book "Broken Gorernment" before you vote for Mc. Cain. Vote for Rob! www.rcjorgensen2008.com
    Bring Justice back to our Politics and trust back to our Dollar. Third Pary Candidates get no media, wake up to the abuses of Power, supression of the Freedom of Press and the bending of the law. Write in Vote for the best candidate for reel change. In Rob we Trust! Fishing for change. Vote Swiss American

  • Posted By: rcjorgensen @ 02/23/2008 9:26:52 PM

    Comment: Want CHANGE vote for a Third Party Candidate and return power to the people. Change is not Obama from Harvard wanting to ride the wave of change and have 33 million in his campaign. It's not Hillary from Bush's almamater Yale either. Don't vote for Mc Cain he's a republican, atleast read John Dean's book "Broken Gorernment" before you vote for Mc. Cain. Vote for Rob! www.rcjorgensen2008.com
    Bring Justice back to our Politics and trust back to our Dollar. Third Pary Candidates get no media, wake up to the abuses of Power, supression of the Freedom of Press and the bending of the law. Write in Vote for the best candidate for reel change. In Rob we Trust! Fishing for change. Vote Swiss American

  • Posted By: rcjorgensen @ 01/22/2008 10:50:51 PM

    Comment: I just read the Pope's letter to Klaus Schwab, regretting not attending Davos World Economic Summit.
    Prayers of World Peace are nice but actions translates in good deeds. Yes, no one should profit from War. How do we make this happen? How can we collaborate to ensure governments stop profitting from War. What do you want the youth to do to make this a reality? Justice in International trade begins with a strong Defense or De Fence. Strong fences make good neighbors. International Court at the Heague will be the step the World need to take in order to bring Justice to International trade. China needs to be a member of this forum and adhere to the Courts Decisions. Unity bears good fruit for all. God has already blessed our World, we need to care for our Mother Earth and treat each other as we want to be treated.

  • Posted By: rcjorgensen @ 01/18/2008 9:30:26 PM

    Comment: +In Rob we Trust!+ www.rcjorgensen2008.com
    Think before you vote! Bush a German American from Harvard and Romney from Yale? Is that right, or just too right! Stay away from Catholic Candidates Guliani, Kucinich, Hillary until the Pope can keep his sheep from pouring over our southern borders and raising the Property taxes of the elderly! Don't vote Republican until you read "Broken Government by John Dean. Write in RCJORGENSEN if I'm not on your ballot. Third party Candidate! Equal Justice under Law! God Bless America

  • Posted By: rcjorgensen @ 01/18/2008 9:23:25 PM

    Comment: Please don't vote for Romney, we have had enough german american candidates from Harward or Yale like Bush. No more of the same old divide the sexes advance the Liberal agenda Hillary vote! Steer clear of Catholic candidates like Guliani or Kusinich until they can control the illegal aliens pouring over our southern border and raising property taxes on the elderly. Throw your support to a 3rd party candidate that cares about diversity and heritage. Love Rob www.rcjorgensen2008.com

  • Posted By: traviso99 @ 12/16/2007 10:30:27 AM

    Comment: "It's just [that] I'm not willing or able to violate my moral conscience. It would be like asking an African-American to choose between Strom Thurmond and George Wallace or asking Abe Lincoln to vote for a pro-slavery candidate. I personally can't do it. I am not going to criticize those who choose the lesser-of-two-evils option. [But] I can't do it, and my guess is somewhere between 25 percent and a third of our people won't do it."
    I love that quote. It reflects my own attitude, and the reason I've voted third party in Presidential elections since I was old enough to (legally) vote. I vote my conscience, for a candidate whose views, platforms and ACTIONS allow me to look myself in the mirror every morning. Unfortunately, neither of the two major parties have provided such a candidate in a very long time. I can't say I've met anyone who doesn't believe fundamental changes need to be made in the way this country is being led, both by the Presidential office and the legislative branch, but you nimrods keep sending the same ilk to office. That will never change as long as you continue to vote Democrat or Republican. Those two parties have created the quagmire in which we currently exist, and neither of them is going to change the way things are done as long as they're in power. They CREATED this mess. Tired of hearing how Congress has free medical for life? Why would they change that? It's in THEIR BEST INTEREST that things remain the way they are now. I'm sick of hearing people who have been in office for 15-20 years talk about needing change. YOU'VE HAD YOUR CHANCE TO CHANGE THINGS AND YOU'VE DONE NOTHING. Go figure. The majority of people in this country are sheep, bleating about the problems that exist but following the shepherd when it's time to move on to the next meadow.

  • Posted By: Shankardada2 @ 12/11/2007 4:13:12 PM

    Comment: I wish we could rid the Republican party of the "Christian Conservatives," who are very UnChrist-like in their xenophobia, unforgiving nature, and all-around ignorance. So hopefully they will form their third party, and become resigned to their increasing irrelevance, rather than holding a great party hostage every four years.

  • Posted By: Vlad Trotsky @ 10/31/2007 12:06:15 PM

    Comment: The Osteen guy all of them are quaks....If there is to be a new party it will be the new "intaligencia"I will not stand for a bunch of extemperanious conpleetly "Right wing ur Fascist" to have a say so in the process.If they start anw party then I will start a new soveit here.Pat robberts is going to be abel to tell me what to do.I don't even want to have ,Ms Clinton tell me waet to do;but I'll lesten.Don't give the country to nutjobs from the deep south.The whole idea of ,"let go to lesten to the chsrlaten down at the chuerch house and hear the word how the lord loves so much that he gave her that ,suv and him that job to pay for the suv.It's total nonsence.

  • Posted By: dbrown1793 @ 10/31/2007 9:15:58 AM

    Comment: oh please, oh please.....a Christian third party in 2008 will do what Ralph Nader did in 2000, namely split the Republican vote and allow the Democrats to win....oh please, oh please. Funny, I thought the "Party of God" was how Al Qaeda described themselves?

    • Posted By: Shankardada2 @ 12/11/2007 16:20:07

      Comment: to dbrown1793: Actually, the Arabic translation of "party of God" is "Hezballah." We all know what a great party that is, having blown our Marines to smitherines in 1980 and starting civil war in Lebanon and international war with Israel... If Christian Conservatives want a similar fundamentalist party in this country, then better to let them have it so that the rest of America can see what they are really about.

  • Posted By: dbrown1793 @ 10/31/2007 9:09:58 AM

    Comment: Oh please, Oh please let there be a Christian third party for 2008. Oh please oh please.....it will have the same affect Ralph Nader did fpr the Democrats in 2000. Namely split the Republican vote and allow the Democrats to win. Maybe the Christian Right can court the Taliban with whom they have so much in commonly spiritually.- Dan

  • Posted By: BrotherJames @ 10/27/2007 10:21:07 PM

    Comment: For those of you who might be interested, Dr. Land, will be speaking at a chapel service at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas on Tuesday, November 27, at 10:50 am. Even if you cannot be there you can either watch the chapel service live on the Southwestern web site or download it later by going to the chapel archive section of the web site. www.swbts.edu.

  • Posted By: gopsean @ 10/27/2007 10:53:18 AM

    Comment: I think Land is still pandering to Romney and his huge bank account. Why would a Southern Baptist lean towards a Mornom with a Liberal voting record that competes with Ted Kennedy? Huckabee is a poster child for evangelicals, you would think Land would be thanking God for Him?
    I found this article in the Washington Times intriguing.
    Christians should vote their conscience



    I am a Christian. I am a conservative. I believe in the democratic process and believe it is the moral imperative that devout Christians involve themselves in the political process to make our society more fair and just for all.



    Like most Christian conservatives, I gather information from Christian commentators in the media to help me cast my vote. As a responsible Christian, I am required to put all their words into passionate scrutiny to prevent the perversion of our faith.



    My passion for seeing Christian values advanced in the political realm is matched only by my disappointment in those who represent those values but then sell them out for status or, even worse, money.



    It has become obvious that Tony Perkins, Gary Bauer, Richard Land and James Dobson have sold their influence over Christian voters to the highest bidder. They are trying to destroy every Republican candidate except multimillionaire Mitt Romney, with the hope that he somehow will become our only choice. Nothing could be further from the truth.



    Mr. Romney was pro-abortion, pro-gun control and pro-gay civil union as governor of Taxachusetts.



    American Christian voters will show these Christian leaders that we are sophisticated enough to recognize when a Christian leader has sold his influence.



    We will not turn the presidential race into a plutocracy that makes it about how rich a candidate is instead of about the character and principles the candidate will bring to the presidency.



    PHILL DACOSTA



    Ball Ground, Ga.


  • Posted By: m516 @ 10/26/2007 7:21:20 PM

    Comment: I do not think we are going to solve anything by forming a third party. As far as the candidates go theirbeliefs are really not the issue. Their track record however is. So based on thier past who would be best to lead this GREAT NATION into the next 4 years. At this point i'm not sure. But religion really is not an issue. Leadership is the true issue. Who has it and who dont. Listen in the world we live in it's tough all over. And I still believe this is the greatest nation on the face of the earth to live in, and I am greatful to God for allowing me to be born in a country where I can worship who I belive is the one true God, Jesus Christ. Without fear of persecuton. For which our founding fathers faught and died for, just like our soldiers are doing for the Iraqi people today. It is however our responsibility to vote for the person who is going to fight for those same freedoms both home and abroad. As i said before i'm not sure who that is yet but whichever it is either republican, or democrat, or otherwise, they are the one who will have my vote. Not the one who would destroy the very fabric or our society. And folks I think that is the real issue. I only hope we see that it is also before we lose site of what's really important by putting all our effors into tring to make someone believe what someone else does or doesnt. For in my experience you cant make someone do something they dont want to. Not by word or deed. People will do what they think is right, as a christian I can and will only do what my bible tells me to do, why? because I believe that the words in the bible are the express Word Of God, and that the words contained therein are the whole truth. And the reason I believe that is because those Words have never led me to do anything that is aginst God or my fellow man. But has strangly enough keep me at peace with the God I serve and everyone I have ever come in contact with. So maybe there is something to it. But that is my belief, but I am not tring to push it on anyone, or tring to say that I am absolutely right. For all I know I'm just living life up-side-down. But consider what each candidate stands for, and what they have stood for in the past, then decide on the best leader to take us into the next 4 to 8 years.

    • Posted By: BrotherJames @ 10/27/2007 22:31:17

      Comment: Sir, you've hit the nail on the head! No one else could have said it as perfectly.

  • Posted By: MODMIKEY2003 @ 10/25/2007 5:08:04 PM

    Comment: The irony is that Mike Huckabee has already stated he would not run as a thrid party candidate. Richard Land acts like he has a secret hand shake with an unkkown and electable third party candidate

  • Posted By: oddsss @ 10/25/2007 2:06:05 PM

    Comment: A POLITICAL QUESTION TO PONDER...GO TO THIS WEB ADDRESS...www.chick.com/bc/1999/mormon.asp AND PLEASE LET ME KNOW AFTER READING THIS IS YOU WANT SOMEONE RUNNING OUR COUNTRY WHO BELIEVES THIS STUFF.

  • Posted By: oi812 @ 10/25/2007 11:45:57 AM

    Comment: To "whatreallymatter" You've got to be kidding!!! Vote for someone simply because they are a Republican???? Let's assume OJ Simpson is a Republican. Let's assume he is running against Hillary for president. OK all you Republicans...get out there and vote for him!!! Come on...let's be intelligent about this....take the time to research ALL the candidates on ALL the issues that are important to you and vote for the PERSON that ties in most closely with your vision for our country.......vote the PARTY....talk about archaic thinking!!!!

  • Posted By: Cates @ 10/25/2007 10:45:07 AM

    Comment: Let em form a third party ... Let em leave the country. The Republican party and America would be better off without all the religious nuts anyway.

    America is a free secular nations with secular values and is in no way based on any religion. If you don't like that ... leave.

  • Posted By: elgiew @ 10/25/2007 10:21:02 AM

    Comment: Oddsss - - - Just point of fact, I am a male, I am currently serving in a Bishopric in a Ward, and am fully aware of what I believe. I think it is very telling about your character and mindset when I very plainly state exactly what I believe (and as a lay minister, teach to our congregants) and you turn around and tell me "no, that's not what you believe, here is what you believe." You really and truly have a problem and I hope you get treatment for it fast. Since this board is about the politics of this issue and not your lies and misrepresentations, I will address a couple of your ignorant comments and hop off. First, it is very ignorant to say if you want to learn about the Church go to another source other than the Church. You honestly think that the anti-Mormon websites out there are not biased? Give me a break. Second, I have not jumped from Church to Church but I am glad you know me well enough to make that assumption. I have been LDS for 12 years and was Southern Baptist before that. I appreciate and love the people in my old Southern Baptist congregation, I just simply believe in the doctrine of the LDS faith (which, by the way, isn't as far apart as most people would think). Third, as a member of the Bishopric, I participate in the collection of and accounting for tithes and offerings. I am not an accountant by any stretch of the imagination, so I am assuming the "special accountant" you are referring to is another one of your invisible friends that again good psychiatric counseling will help rid you of. By the way, there are many members of the Church who are in good standing even though they do not have the ability to pay their tithing. Further, my mortgage is paid by my full time employment. Too bad I can't say the same for most of these Evangelical ministers who are in it for the Vocation not salvation. The LDS church has a lay ministry and none of us are paid to perform in any of our callings. At least you got one thing right, the Church does use its tithes and offerings collected from its 13 million members to help those less fortunate through food banks, the Bishop's storehouse, disaster relief, etc. Oh, and by the way, I also agree coffee will not keep you out of what you know as heaven. Hate, hypocrisy, and lying will and that is the real danger for you at this point.

    Now, I am leaving the board to its political discussion.

    • Posted By: oddsss @ 10/25/2007 14:02:55

      Comment: I AM NOT TRYING TO BE DIFFICULT ABOUT PEEPSTONES BUT I STUMBLEDACROSS THIS AT THE FOLLOWING WEB ADDRESS...www.chick.com/bc/1999/mormon.asp. CALL ME A PYHSCO AND WHAT NOT BUT FOR SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES THAT YOU CAN TELL THE FUTURE WITH A ROCK IS THE ONE THAT NEEDS TO BE SEEN BY A DOCTOR. I REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE LDS PEOPLE THINK ABOUT PEEPSTONES.

    • Posted By: oddsss @ 10/25/2007 13:57:12

      Comment: ONE OTHER THING. WITH REGARDS TO POLITICS...YOUR BOY MIT IS SLIPPING IN EVERY POLL AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO BECAUSE OF THE MAJORITY OF THIS GREAT COUNTRY KNOWS THE TRUTH ABOUT THE LDS CHURCH AND I AM HONESTLY HAPPY THAT HE IS RUNNING SO MAYBE FOR ONCE THE TRUTH ABOUT YOUR CULT WILL SURFACE TO THE MAINSTREAM.

    • Posted By: oddsss @ 10/25/2007 13:53:01

      Comment: ONCE AGAIN YOU MADE MY POINT ABOUT YOUR CHURCH. YOUR COMMENTS TOTALLY SKATE AROUND THE REAL ISSUE OF FALSE DOCTRINE, FALSE PROPHETS, AND THE FABRICATIONS YOU MAKE TO RECRUIT MEMBERS OF YOUR CULT. UNTIL A MEMBER OF THE LDS CHURCH CAN CONFRONT THE ISSUES STATED ABOVE WITH FACTUAL PROOF YOU WILL ALWAYS BE JUST A CULT, NOT A RELIGION, AND I HONESTLY BELEIEVE THIS PERSONAL OPINION IS SHARED BY THE MAJORITY WHO ARE NOT LDS. GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR MEMBERSHIP.

    • Posted By: oddsss @ 10/25/2007 13:48:31

      Comment: STILL HAVE NOT HAD YOUR COMMENT ON PEEPSTONES...

      • Posted By: Extremist Moderate @ 12/08/2007 15:38:35

        Comment: You know, it irritates the heck out of most people when their Caps Lock key gets stuck. I applaud your courage in continuing to post comments in the face of such adversity. I hope that others recognize this as well, rather than assuming you intentionally used all capital letters like neophytes and trolls are wont to.

  • Posted By: oddsss @ 10/25/2007 9:42:54 AM

    Comment: Elgiew...I'm done with you. The bottom line is this...Chritianity and Christ teachings found in the Bible has been the root of all other religions, not the Koran, not the Book of Mormon, ect. Through Christ is the only way to the Lord...and in the end it will not be a politician deciding my faith but the great King of Kings, Jesus Christ. In fact, I am not a big proponent of politics. I live my life walking in faith and things just seem to be alright. It's a beautiful think not having to worry about my government dictating my future.

  • Posted By: oddsss @ 10/25/2007 9:28:37 AM

    Comment: By the way Elgiew...your comment about money and religion needs to be turned 180. The LSD Church has more money dumped into thier vaults by thier members that any other religion. They have specialized accountants that make sure you and others donate thier 10% and if you do not, your no longer in good standing with the church whcih means no more food banks, no more help with your mortgage, and your have to ride coach in the spaceship that is coming to pick you up in the future.

  • Posted By: oddsss @ 10/25/2007 9:25:01 AM

    Comment: Here is elgiew again. The religious bouncing ball. Going from one religion to another trying seek one to fit her agenda. This person had no idea of the LSD faith. Everything my man Chuck said is correct. I suggest those who are interested in the LSD Church do not go to a bias website such as LSD.org but to Google the church and form your own unbiased opionion. I am sure you will find some quite remarkable thigs. Elgiew...what about those peepstones that you believe in. From my understanding these were pet rocks that were supposed to tell the future. Now if that is'nt wacky I do not know what is. Gotta to finish my coffee and get to work. By the elgiew...coffee will not keep you from going to Heaven.

  • Posted By: chuck2810 @ 10/25/2007 6:35:16 AM

    Comment: The premise that LDS is a Christian church is flawed. The questions you have to ask someone who asserts this are:
    Is the Christ you speak of the one and only son of God? Born of a virgin, died on the cross, resurrected from the dead on the third day?
    Did his death and resurrection provide the only means to provide eternal life, simply by accepting that gift and making Christ Lord over your life?
    LDS cannot answer those questions in the affirmative, unless by sly talking. They believe that God and Jesus are two different characters, and that both were originally human. They also believe Satan and Jesus are brothers! In fact, they believe that they can become gods themselves, by their works. Mormonism is works based - fact and point. Christianity is the belief in the Holy Scriptures (The Bible) and the message we have been told by it: Namely Ephesians 2:8-10:
    For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift??? not from works, so that no one can boast. For we are His creation???created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them.
    Their rituals and Temple activities are secret ??? although former members can tell you about what goes on in there. So yes, they can say they have Jesus, but that is not the Jesus in the bible, that is not God. Speak the truth; be as wise as serpents, and as gentle as doves.
    I urge anyone who does not have this knowledge to avail themselves to do the study. I will not tell you where to look, so that I cannot influence you. I pray that the Holy Spirit lifts the veil from all eyes.

    • Posted By: oddsss @ 10/25/2007 08:35:57

      Comment: Good Post Chuch...As stated in my previous posts I live in the heart of mormon country, St. George, Utah. What you say is what I haved learned while researching the mormon religion. I honestly do not believe how a mormon can expect a Christian to understand and accept their beliefs when they are flawed are are not truly represented in Bible. I have ask the mormons in my area why they felt the need to follow the teachings of Joe Smith, a false prophet (in my opinion) and not one has been able to give a difinitive answer. In addition, when I speak to a mormon about thier faith I try to quote scriptures from the Bible not the Book of Mormon and every time they revert back to thier book. This is the big difference for me because they main support for thier beliefs comes from ficticious writings. As with the previous posts, the Christians have been able to find proof of the Biblical Teachings but apparently exist for suport of Joe Smity. I ask if they do, and the mormon states that they were told they are hidden in a vault. Why hide the facts if the exist?

      • Posted By: elgiew @ 10/25/2007 08:51:21

        Comment: Chuck, according to your criteria the LDS Church is a Christian faith. We believe Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God. Also, we believe that you are saved by grace and judged by works. Anything else posted here is incorrect. If you don't think that is the case, go to lds.org and look up the Church's beliefs. It is the double speak on the part of radical Evangelicals that try to twist the doctrine of our Church. Why? I think it comes down to money. The more people who leave Evangelism and convert to Mormonism, the less people you have in the congregation and the less money goes into the pockets of your ministers. Are you guys really worried about salvation or inflation?????

  • Posted By: nivramcireel @ 10/24/2007 10:18:33 PM

    Comment: As people come to realize that Mormons are indeed Christians, the appeal for Romney will broaden.

    It is so ironic that the LDS church is so villianized for not being Christian. Take a look at their website: www.lds.org. , Christ front and center. Take a look at any other Creedal Christian church website and note
    the absence of Christ on their Home page. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
    Oh Critic! Yes, I know that image of Christ at www.lds.org is the product of an artists interruption's of what Christ may have appeared. But it still makes the point. We are Christian!


    Mitt is a highly successful CEO of a multi-Billion $ company, Saved the 2002 Winter Olympics, turning 300
    million deficit into a 50 million Profit, 1st ever of a Winter Olympics. As governor, turned 3 billion deficit into 1billion surplus. He doesn't seek the presidency for money*, or power, just to make a better America for his Grandchildren. I am voting for him, in hopes in can work equal magic with the federal government as his record shows in his previous endeavors .
    * He refused his salary as CEO of Olympics and as Governor, and has promised his presidential salary to charity.

  • Posted By: Kj32 @ 10/24/2007 9:25:09 PM

    Comment: RON PAUL ------RON PAUL --------RON PAUL --------RON PAUL-------RON PAUL------RON PAUL

    I am not interested in all of this ridiculous angry debate that is clearly going on here over christian theology and what not. Why don't we talk about the fact that all the other canidates are a hopeless waste of your vote. Ron Paul is the real deal.
    Wake up people!!!!!!
    Vote RON PAUL for president.

  • Posted By: m516 @ 10/24/2007 8:34:17 PM

    Comment: At what point did this become a christian non-christian, lover hater discusson? I thought this was a political discussion? And if the constitution seperates church and state as some of you have commented why is it not seperated here? Seem we need to seperate ourselves from the idea that all christians are wrong and non-christians right and vice versa, and get to the matter at hand and discuss the politicians who are in fact running for office, insted of hating what someone believes or doesnt believe all for the sake of arguement. Cause I just bet that these politicans are so worried about what we believe that they just cant sleep good at night. I believe that we would all be better off if we did. There would probably be alot more love going on and alot less hate.

    • Posted By: Kj32 @ 10/24/2007 21:39:11

      Comment: You are exactly right, this post is ridiculous, it should be about the canidates.
      My vote goes to RON PAUL, check him out on his website and you will see why so many people like this guy.
      Ron Paul for president !!!!!!!!!

    • Posted By: Kj32 @ 10/24/2007 21:29:51

      Comment: You are exactly right, I agree the discussion should be on the canidates at hand.
      My vote goes to RON PAUL, forget about the rest of those guys. Read about what he stands for on his website, and you will see why people love this guy.
      Vote for Ron Paul !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Posted By: mrfurnitureman @ 10/24/2007 8:05:13 PM

    Comment: Comment: It may just be wishful thinking, but i would like to see a candidate that has the people's interest in mind, you know, understand what's important to the people overall and work with a bi-partisan government to accomplish the tasks. For example, Health care, Social Security, Interest Rates, moving US manufacturing jobs back to the US and putting our own people back to work, keep our Military strong and proud, put some work into how to get out of such an oil dependency and last but not least, go back to
    practicing some religious freedom in this country. Let's just get along together on this planet it's the only one we have.

  • Posted By: DFCSTech @ 10/24/2007 6:49:06 PM

    Comment: Read this and e-mail JC and Mike and tell them to hook up ASAP!
    http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/9676127.html

  • Posted By: bareice07@hotmail.com @ 10/24/2007 6:34:11 PM

    Comment: Did you ever notice how EVERY religion claims to be the one true religion and the ONLY path to God and ALL UNBELIEVERS SHOULD BE KILLED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ALSO, EVERY RELIGION CLAIMS THAT THEIR HOLY BOOK IS THE ONLY TRUE "WORD OF GOD". Sounds like a bunch of superstitious fairy tales to me. When the so called "Christians" form their own party they can call it "The Rich White Male Anti-Everything Christian Party" and their first candidate for President can be the late Jerry Falwell, and failing that they can probably recruit the disgraced Ted Haggard. KARL MARX WAS RIGHT; RELIGION IS THE OPIATE FOR THE MASSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Posted By: oddsss @ 10/24/2007 19:22:13

      Comment: Well, here is another fine individual of society comparing believing in God to Karl Marx's ideology. I think everybody should realize that religion is different that that of having a relationship with God and wanting to have a moral life. Here is another fine example of a person who is only concerned with his own agenda and is not worried about moral consequences. Let's see if we can find another today. The only good thing is that these individuals are the minority because over 90% of Americans believe in a higher power. Thank God!!!

  • Posted By: oddsss @ 10/24/2007 5:19:11 PM

    Comment: Elgiew..what about peepstones?

    • Posted By: elgiew @ 10/25/2007 08:40:56

      Comment: oddsss ...... what about psychiatric counseling? It definitely sounds like you need some.

  • Posted By: cindylou @ 10/24/2007 3:48:06 PM

    Comment: well, how about this? we are here in this physical word to find out WHAT WE ARE NOT. inside all of us, i believe is a true, pure energy, only love. but it did not know who it was in the beginniing, so it made itself "physical", which gave it FREEWILL. back to politics, all this "my religion", "their religion", seems so small and petty. what will it take for humankind to realize that ORGANIZED RELIGION is not the answer? all it will serve to do, if a specific religious order takes power, is SEPARATE people even more. jesus preached peace, love and happiness---and i am standing by my belief that he was a hippie. not a politician---that is a power trip. i find most of this just sooooo hypocritical. "my way is the BEST", "my religion's beliefs can HEAL everything"----HAHAHAHA. what a joke. never has throughtout history and it never will. WE NEED TO LEARN TO TOLERATE, TO ACCEPT AND TO SHARE. ALL THIS IMPOSING, SHOVING BELIEFS DOWN OTHERS' THROATS, WELL, IT CAUSES FEAR, HATE AND ANGER. IT IS THE VERY OPPOSITE OF ALL THESE RELIGIOUS NINNIES WHO CLAIM THAT JESUS IN THEIR BACK POCKETS

    • Posted By: hiplikov @ 10/24/2007 16:07:19

      Comment: A god that is small enough to understand is not big enough to trust. Anger, hate, resentment, hypocracy is all over the place. It is the human condition. Trust your heart to the Lord and lean not on your understanding and the adventure of a lifetime begins and rolls into eternal joy. The only way is to take the leap of faith. Creating God in our own image is not the answer. Love the Lord God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your strength. Love your neighbor as your self is difficult for all, but it is the beginning of peace in all situations. Come on over to my church as we have another seat available for another hypocrite.

      • Posted By: cindylou @ 10/24/2007 16:16:31

        Comment: and you know the "picture" of the one and only god? i guess i am confused.

        • Posted By: hiplikov @ 10/24/2007 16:23:16

          Comment: I can not comprehend God, but I trust that if I create a feel good God that fits all situations, it is only my imagination. I can only believe what history teaches and Jesus was the only one to die and rise from the dead. The bible is the most accurate source for archeology, science and civilation as recorded by intelligent, educated, inspired human beings. God can be found and heard in these ancient scriptures but can only be reached through his Son, who is God manifested in the only form and person that can be seen and heard as God, the only way, the only truth as is written not as created by modern humanists using animistic superstition to justify their existence and hypocracy.

          • Posted By: cindylou @ 10/24/2007 17:22:11

            Comment: well, i do not know what a "feel good" god means. jesus was human, which means he could topple over the table in the synagogue, because he was making a point about hypocrites. i still maintain he was a hippie. and i need to ask , have you ever looked at the bible in a metaphysical way? not literally, but taking into account that jesus was smarter than the average person, and would speak in a way that has hidden meaning? why does it only make sense to me one way, and sense to you another way? i really want to know. and fear will not cut---my jesus loves a curious mind and discussion and learning. so, go at it!!!!

          • Posted By: Melchizedek @ 10/24/2007 16:58:29

            Comment: AMEN brother!

  • Posted By: haveagoodday @ 10/24/2007 3:43:09 PM

    Comment: I just hope we can all vote for the political candidate who we feel would best perform his/her duities... regardless of their beliefs. These is so much hate and rancor in these posts, it doesn't seem to bring any progress on the political front, but seems fairly antithetical to what most churches, of any religion, teach. Just my $.02. Have a great day everyone!

    • Posted By: oddsss @ 10/24/2007 15:56:44

      Comment: Good Post....I do want to say that for the average Christian person like myself who is not trying to go around and shove my beliefs down someone elses throat...life is good. I agree with most that it disturbs me when Christian leaders, pastors, and other people of the pulpit who mock other faiths. However, the only way of being saved is through Christ and how you get their is your responsibility. The Bible, the original uncut version and not other books written by self proclaimed prophets (ie. Joe Smith) should be the only book studied to find your way to Christ. It is my hope that all other relegions will realize this not try to change things to meet their agendas. It can be a difficult course but one well worth the travel. By the way, we should all be grateful that we live in a Country where we can sit in front of our computers with a roof over our heads and realize our right to Free Speech.

      God Bless Everyone and have a blessed life....

      • Posted By: elgiew @ 10/24/2007 16:46:01

        Comment: Great post? You don't like when other Christians mock other faiths????? That is all you have been doing on this board, you hypocrite.

        • Posted By: oddsss @ 10/24/2007 17:15:21

          Comment: Do not throw stones in your glass house.

  • Posted By: oddsss @ 10/24/2007 3:37:36 PM

    Comment: To Quote the geat Lee Strobel..."Antheism..the pursuit of your own agenda in life without moral constraints".

    • Posted By: Boka @ 10/24/2007 16:24:14

      Comment: Yes. This is why atheists have no voice in our society. They are irrelevant.

  • Posted By: allegheny @ 10/24/2007 2:12:56 PM

    Comment: good article

  • Posted By: elgiew @ 10/24/2007 1:24:22 PM

    Comment: Reading this board gags me. bjperry and oddsss are of course experts in Mormonism but are about as incomplete and incorrect on our doctrine as anything. This entire dialogue is proof positive as to why Evangelicals should not (and in actuality, do not) have any influence over government. They love to tell you what you believe, and if you don't believe as they do then you are a lost soul and are not a true Christian. If you look at their comments toward other faiths and value systems on here, they prove they can be the most un-Christian of people. Their influence in American politics is very exaggerated and I hope they do form a 3rd party to prove it. Every endorsement for Gov. Romney from these Evangelical kooks comes with an insult about how Mitt is not Christian, etc. Mitt should tell them to pack it and I am disappointed that he is embracing these people. Frankly, I don't care what they think about me. If you compare my LDS beliefs with the majority of the stuff they teach and practice in their churches (and yes, I have experienced this as a former Southern Baptist) people would realize that they are further away from Biblical Christianity than the LDS Church has ever been accused of being. I am sick and tired of this self-righteous group of people trying to tell everyone how right they are and how wrong everyone else is. I guarantee you 10 Evangelicals in a room could not agree on simple doctrine, but yet they are going to tell everyone else they are wrong in their thoughts and beliefs. I am going to support any candidate that doesn't pander and cater to this group.

    • Posted By: oddsss @ 10/24/2007 15:21:57

      Comment: Hey everybody go to www.septemberdawn.net. Look for yourselves what the mormans are all about. Google September Dawn and read for yourself. In fact, I live in St. George and due to the huge morman influence out here the movie was not allowed to be shown. Typical for a mormon, always hiding the truth just like their Gold Plates and peepstones.

      • Posted By: elgiew @ 10/24/2007 16:48:46

        Comment: First, before you post try spell check. The word is Mormon not Morman, or better yet use LDS or Church of Jesus Christ of LDS. Second, September Dawn was widely panned by the vast majority of critics as a piece of propaganda to further an anti-mormon agenda. Read rottemtomatoes.com for the review. The Church acknowledges what happened at Mountain Meadows, the REAL version of what happened, and that can be read in the September Ensign magazine on LDS.org. Quit your hate mongering and anti-mormon rhetoric and get a life.

        • Posted By: oddsss @ 10/24/2007 19:52:55

          Comment: www.septemberdawn.net this is the truth. The mor-mans are always doing things against what society beleives to be right and just and then they retreat like the cowards they are when their misconceptions are revealed. Once again, I never read in my local paper about a mor-man being arrested or commiting a crime. They do not want the truth exposed that is why they all there so called proof of Joe Smith's prophecies are seal in some vault in some so called temple.

  • Posted By: Kj32 @ 10/24/2007 11:20:22 AM

    Comment: All I have to say is stop all of this religous debate and anger, and lets all agree that RON PAUL is the man we should vote for. Forget about Romney, Giuliani, or Huckfinn. Read what Ron Paul stands for on his website and you will see.
    Vote Ron Paul for President!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Posted By: Boka @ 10/24/2007 10:33:23 AM

    Comment: "Dear Lord, the gods have been good to me. As an offering, I present these milk and cookies. If you wish me to eat them instead, please give me no sign whatsoever ... thy will be done. (munch munch munch)".
    - Homer Simpson

  • Posted By: Awake @ 10/24/2007 10:17:48 AM

    Comment: "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies."
    "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus...in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter".
    - Thomas Jefferson '

    • Posted By: cindylou @ 10/24/2007 16:02:07

      Comment: Enter Your Comment thank you for your quote---that tom was one smart man!!!!!!

  • Posted By: Boka @ 10/24/2007 9:26:41 AM

    Comment: I worry about a third party high-jacking the Christian religion. However the liberals have done so much damage to the country that it's time for a change. Gays, feminists and atheists should not have a voice in a moral society.

    • Posted By: cindylou @ 10/24/2007 15:53:02

      Comment: Enter Your Commenthey, anyone who lives peacefully should have a voice in his or her own government. wow, you sure have lots of separatist-labels going on!!!!!

    • Posted By: oddsss @ 10/24/2007 15:35:12

      Comment: Word Up Booka! The key word here is moral. Every one, that I know, who enjoys slandering Christian Beliefs and not believing in Jesus Christ, are ones who live their lives immorally. This is the key. To Quote the geat Lee Strobel..."Antheism..the pursuit of your own agenda in life without moral constraints".

      • Posted By: Boka @ 10/24/2007 15:56:21

        Comment: Yes. This is why atheists have no voice in our society. They are irrelevant.

  • Posted By: ReligionProf @ 10/24/2007 9:22:05 AM

    Comment: There is a need for a third party, and a few more as well. Many Christians, and many voters in general, are unhappy with the 'values' of either party exclusively . Yet we keep on voting for one party or the other that doesn't quite represent us fully, because we feel we need to choose between the lesser of two evils.

    I for one would like to see a party representing the outlook of Sojourners and the Evangelical middle-to-left, concerned with both social justice and supporting families. The biggest thing such a party would contribute is an alternative to voting along party lines, a willingness to take what is good from either while also being creative and looking for third alternatives.

    http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com

  • Posted By: BrotherJames @ 10/24/2007 8:52:46 AM

    Comment: Thanks, oddsss! Blessings to you!

  • Posted By: DCarley @ 10/24/2007 7:37:44 AM

    Comment: I find you ignorance mind-boggling. And ignorance will keep you lost. Ignorance will make you a dangerous person for this planet and our country. Ignorance is comfortable though. So, I pray that you will not remain comfortable much longer.

    • Posted By: cindylou @ 10/24/2007 17:13:10

      Comment: what are you talking about?

  • Posted By: BrotherJames @ 10/24/2007 6:53:00 AM

    Comment: viji,
    Well, my statement was not meant as an attack against you. I am simply defending my beleifs, as you are. But, back to the original question that I asked earlier, what does anybody have to offer that is better than the gospel? Science, philosophy, phychology, politics, a hedonistic lifestyle, and yes even being merely religious does not cut it. I have tried most things and I have had many experiences. Yet, I cannot find anything that briings life meaning, purpose, joy, and satisfaction apart from faith in Jesus Christ. I claim no sense of omniscience. But still, even a part from being a Christian, I experience life much the same way that you do. I don't completely know how electricity works. Yet, I know when I flip a switch the light comes on. So, even if I don't completely understand how electricity works, should I then deny the exsistence of electricity simply on the basis that I don't fully know how it works? How absurd! So, you must have a lot more faith than I do in order to hold to your belief that God does not exsist. I don't have to fully comprehend the eternal in order to know that there is an eternity -- for that matter, an eternal being who is God. What I do know is that this world is a broken place. Life just does not work. Man is too sinful, too selfish, too hateful, to arrogant, to be God. What I have discovered is that life makes sense only when life is connected to Jesus Christ. It's not a crutch, It's truth. Discover it for yourself.

    • Posted By: viji @ 10/24/2007 21:11:26

      Comment: I'm not a disbeliever. I'm agnostic, not atheist.

      I have a problem with atheists because they claim to KNOW there is no God, just like I have a problem with Christians claming to KNOW that Jesus is the embodiment of a God whom they KNOW exists. These are things that we humans are too small to ever know...so why hassle it? This is why I claim to know nothing.

      By the way, there are things in life that are better than the gospels. How about friends and family?

    • Posted By: badlogic @ 10/24/2007 12:14:01

      Comment: Your electricity analogy doesn't apply to a belief in god. If you want proof of electricity, simply stick a fork into a power outlet. The evidence is incontrovertable. Any statement claiming to know for a fact that there is a god, and that he has a plan and if you don't follow this plan you will be spanked by god when you die is at its best fiction and more seriously is simply delusional. Science claims nothing it cannot prove and humbly says "I don't know" to the rest. I for one would rather move forward and find real answers to life's questions rather than make up a nice idea. It is no different than when the Greeks came up with Zeus over 2000 years ago or any other ancient culture. We don't often have debates on whether we should include the teachings of the mighty Thor in our government.

      • Posted By: BrotherJames @ 10/24/2007 23:30:19

        Comment: Badlogic,
        My friend, I did not say that I do not believe in electricity. Of course I do. Like you, I am sitting in front of a computer, which is plugged into an electrical outlet, which receives electricity from a power source outside of my home. Nor was I trying to prove the existence of God by doing so. Go back and read my earlier comments slowly, letter by letter, so that your little mind can comprehend what I am trying to say. I am not going to attempt to convince you that God exists. The idea of God???s non-existence has already been settled in your mind. But, I do wander, if God does not exist why then are you so adamant in arguing against him? It seems to me that if God does not exist then a person of your seemingly astute character could truly care less about what anyone believes about God.

        By the way, it doesn???t bother me that you are so condescending to me. But, let me see if I understand your basic argument against me. Assertion #1: God is not real and it is delusional to think that he does exist. Assertion #2: Science is the most preferred option over belief in God, since it is a finite discipline by your own admission. Assertion # 3: There is really no basis for my beliefs, since after all, they are mere superstition. Have I got it right? Did I miss something? Oh, yea! Proof? Hummmm. Badlogic is certainly not a misnomer for you, is it? Have you not read Aquinas who has said that assertions are not proofs? I have read your statements very carefully and with great consideration. Yet, I don???t see anything more from you than mere assertions. What peon university did you attend which taught you how to build an argument this way? Your degree is used toilet paper written with the ink of fecal matter if the only way you can argue a point is by making assertions without backing them up. Can you possibly give me rock-solid evidence for your beliefs? Where are your facts?

        I have spent the better part of my life studying in the areas of theology and philosophy. So, an education from you is unaccredited because, my friend, I am well-versed in the ???dry literature??? to which you speak.

        ???God has put eternity in our hearts.??? and, ???There is a God-shaped void in all of us.??? ??? Blaise Pascal

        ???The universe had a beginning. The beginning of the universe was caused. The cause for the beginning of the universe was a personal Being.??? -- The Kalam Cosmological Argument for the existence of God.

        ???The fool has said in his heart, ???There is no God?????? ??? Psalm 14:1.

        ???For in him we live and move and have our being??? Acts 17:28 -- The Apostle Paul speaking to the philosophers in Athens concerning their alter to the unknown God.

        ???In him was life, and the life was the light of men.??? ??? John 1:5

        • Posted By: badlogic @ 10/25/2007 15:28:35

          Comment: Also, I went to the "peon" Johns Hopkins University. I'd be curious to find out where you learned your breathtaking debating skills. Insulting someone isn't making a point, it just wastes time.

        • Posted By: badlogic @ 10/25/2007 15:23:30

          Comment: BTW in your list of my assertions, 1 and 3 are the same. Also, it isn't my job to disprove an outrageous claim, however commonly heard, It's your job to prove it. Science isn't the alternative to a belief in god, it's a completely different outlook. It takes no leap of faith to test, look at the facts and come to a concrete conclusion.

        • Posted By: badlogic @ 10/25/2007 15:17:50

          Comment: Like many people today, many great scientists of the past made their discoveries and when they couldn't solve something, left it up to god. Intelligent people can believe in god, but it doesn't make its existence any more plausible. Once again, you aren't giving facts to god's existence, only proof that other people believe that there is one. There is an enormous difference. It's not about intelligence, simply honestly looking at the world and taking stock of what you ACTUALLY know.

          • Posted By: BrotherJames @ 10/25/2007 20:11:58

            Comment: Excuse me, Sir, But, if I have been insulting to you, I have simply been following your lead. You have been even more so insulting to me and others on this board. You may be a well educated individual but you have shown yourself to be very arrogant and condescending in your posts -- as if you own a corner on intelligencia looking down your nose at all of the rest of us. I think you needed a taste of your own medicine.

            Again, what facts would you like for me to examine? If you want a scientific method for proof of God's existence, well, there is not one. Nor does there need to be one. But, if the necessity of faith is your obsticle, then it seems that you have nullified the presence of your own faith in your belief that God does not exist. I've studied evolution. Even if I was not a Christian, I would still come to the conclusion that evolution doesn't work. Do you want me to believe creation came into existence by a spontaneous random act of chance? That, chance produced chaos, which ultimately brought forth the ordered universe as we know it? How could the universe come from nothing if there is not something, or someone to initiate it? Certainly it takes more faith for you to hold to the non-existence of God than it does for me to believe that he does. When you look at the human anatamy, or any other part of the universe, all that is contained therein is too complex and orderly to be the result of random chance and natural selection. If Darwin had been aware of human DNA he would have scrapped his entire theory of evolution.

            The Latin phrase, fides quaerens intellectum, applies to you, even more so than it does to me. Faith seeking understanding takes a person from unbelief to belief, from presupposition to the conception of truth. For you, the truth is that God does not, and cannot, exist based on your set of observations and evidence. When I take a critical look at your viewpoint coupled with mine, the only logical conclusion is that God cannot be concieved not to exist. God is altogether distinct from his creation. There is nothing in the universe that corresponds to the nature and existence of God aside from humanity who is created in the image of God. Whether you like it or not, you and I reflect the image of God in such things as our ability to reason and to create, as well as our facility for moral, spiritual, relational, and intellectual development. When you look in the mirror you see a man who is made in the image of God. The breath you breathe, the thoughts you think, the life you live is a gift from the God whom you believe does not exist. You live every day in his presence as he holds your life in his hand. In him you live and move and have your being. I see that as something to be embraced, not explained away. Psalm 8

            • Posted By: badlogic @ 10/26/2007 23:37:03

              Comment: Once again, and for the last time, I don't need to prove anything, It is up to those who make outrageous stagements to prove them. If I claimed that mickey mouse created the universe and you should do the steamboat willie dance or suffer eternal damnation, I'd have to prove it. Also, you should read through your own responses. I have not called anyone names when confronted about my thinking, and really have a good sense of humor about the whole issue. I am perfectly willing to test my ideas through debate or argument and honestly "listen" to what you have to say. I want to know the truth as much as you do, but I do think that in this case you may be biased. At the end of the day we're all people and I'd rather not have religion constantly setting us apart. If I have come off as arrogant, I apologize.

              • Posted By: BrotherJames @ 10/27/2007 21:38:00

                Comment: Well, sir, if I have offended you in some way, then I, too, offer my apologies and I hope you will forgive me.
                By the way, do you see how the act of forgiveness between people shows that there is something about humanity which sets us apart from the rest of creation? You see, when a person forgives the fault of another person, they are acting in accordance with the fact that they are created in the image of God. Man is a sinner that has sinned against God. That is why there is so much wrong with this world. Ultimately, there rneeds to be a remedy to the problem of evil. That remedy is Jesus Christ, God's Son. When Jesus Christ died on the cross he bore our punishment so that we can be forgiven of our sins and enter into a relationship with God. The humility of the transgressor to ask his fellow man for forgiveness and the grace to forgive by the offended is a picture of the relationship between God and man.

                This parable just occured to me. I know I probably need more time to flesh this out, but here goes.
                My neighber and I have male and female dogs. One day, while my neighbor took his male dog to the vet, my male dog jumped the fence and mated with my neighbor's female dog. When my male dog came back, my female dog came to me and demanded that the male be neutered and sent away. Later, my female dog saw my neighbor's female dog outside and jumped the fence, attacking and killing my neighbor's female dog in a fit of jealous rage. Now, before a jury of her pears (i.e., the neighborhood pets), how should she plead?

                Of course, this is an absurd story, but it makes a point. The claim that man is no different from the animal world makes no sense to me. Man is a relational being with a conscience. Dogs and every other animal species are creatures of instinct that do what they do by natural inclination. Granted, man is instinctive as well in many ways, But, man is created by God, for God, and to be in relationship with God.

                I know I will never convence you by way of debate. But, I will put God's reputation on the line by letting God make Himself known to you. How? I'm glad you asked. I want you to make a list of needs in your life. Include things that you want as well. Make a list , one or two things, three dozen, or twelve dozen, it doesn't matter. You don't even have to tell me what they are. I am going to pray for you and your list. Now, I am willing to risk my privacy by leaving an email address that I have created just so that you can email me in order to let me know when these needs start being met. I've seen God answer prayer! When you see it happening, you may hear an internal voice that says, "Now, do you believe?". james_matlock@msn.com

      • Posted By: hiplikov @ 10/24/2007 14:35:26

        Comment: You won't be spanked, however chances are 100% that you will be alone forever and ever in agony.

        • Posted By: badlogic @ 10/24/2007 15:27:29

          Comment: Thanks, and the moon is made out of cheese...you haven't made an argument, just an inane statement.

          • Posted By: cindylou @ 10/24/2007 16:32:01

            Comment: i guess i will be with you in agony, at least we have brains!!!! it might be pretty stimulating there, and perhaps we will overtake heaven and come into power one day!!!!

    • Posted By: oddsss @ 10/24/2007 08:24:15

      Comment: Brother James, you are the man. Keep going Brother. Your wisdom of the Word is refreshing. With 90% of the Americans believing in a higher power, I think the majority will agree with you. When Jesus returns we can only hope and pray those who are "sitting on the fence" will claimed Jesus as their savior. I appreciate your understanding of the Word and your presentation. I always asked those who do not beleive or have accepted Jesus, What is better than believing in Jesus with the hopes that after we leave this world we will be with Him? If we all lived our lives trying to walk in the steps of Jesus and truly beleive we will be better off in this world. Keep on Brother James and have a blessed day!

      • Posted By: cindylou @ 10/24/2007 16:44:50

        Comment: so, you are basing your actions in this physical world on the hope that you will be with jesus, huh? my goodness, think about that----are there going to be long lines that you have to wait in, just to touch the hem of his garment? or maybe, you will need to be someone special, to even get the chance for a meeting. good grief, wake up----what are you really saying? it sounds so sanctimonious, but really, waht are you expecting in the "after-life"? yes, i really want to know---will it be all billowy clouds and singing and skipping along? also, if god is different from us, why does he judge? shoot, you and i can do that---i thought he maybe was BIG ENOUGH to love all of the souls on this earth!!!!! haha....

      • Posted By: cindylou @ 10/24/2007 16:29:02

        Comment: do you really believe you are going to some wonderful place, that JESUS, who to me represents LOVE, will pick you and leave me behind, because i do not think or practice as you do? wow, seems a very shallow way to live your life---all on the expectation that you are going to have it better in the future. see, i cannot, wiil not and have outgrown your dependency on this fantasy you ascribe to---and i have already said, if i would have to go to heaven with most of the do-gooder-hypocrites i know, well, i will take hell, thank you very much! at least, it would be interesting!!!!!

  • Posted By: BrotherJames @ 10/24/2007 12:27:58 AM

    Comment: viii,
    Yes, I asked a serious question. What difibulator, pacemaker, airbag, or whatever, will keep you or me or anyone else for that matter from death at our appointed time? I am thinking from an eternal prospective, not physical or material. As I said, science has given us many things (such as defibulators, pacemakers and airbags, etc.) that make life better for us. Yet, your life and mine has a source from whom we are made and to whom we are to give an account. God gives life and wisdom and blessing. In him we live and move and have our being. Because of the cross of Jesus Christ all of the world stands or falls, either by faith or unbelief. The question is, where do you stand?

    • Posted By: badlogic @ 10/24/2007 12:39:08

      Comment: Wow, you're very deep thinking of eternity no less. You are running your life on a belief that is based on nothing more than wishful thinking and dry literature, and are warning the rest of us to re-evaluate our lives? At the very least you should acknowledge the unknown and rethink what you ACTUALLY know. Be honest with yourself and realize the difference between claims (however attractive) and facts (including evidence). [No more simple analogies about proving the existence of electricity either, stop deluding yourself!]

    • Posted By: viji @ 10/24/2007 01:14:06

      Comment: Personally, I stand on the side of the agnostic. Christians and people from other religions have a tendency to call that "sitting on the fence," but I would never be so arrogant as to claim to know things I could never possibly know.

      Humans will never comprehend the eternal because we are ourselves physical and material. For the sake of argument, let's assume for a moment that there is indeed a God who created the entire universe. Something that powerful and all encompassing is something our tiny human brains could never begin to comprehend. Furthermore, assuming something like that actually talks to us is an extremely pompous thing to think. That's why I'm agnostic...because I'm humble.

      Remember, there is a difference between believing and knowing.

  • Posted By: BrotherJames @ 10/23/2007 11:15:17 PM

    Comment: Frost845,
    Science saves us from death, huh? And you say the exsistence of God cannot be proven? Who has science saved from death? You? Me? When, where, and how did this happen? Please enlighten me because there are still things in the scientific world that are yet to be discovered. But, there is more proof to the existence of God than can be presented here. Although God has made himself known to us in the general revelation of what science has, and has yet to, observe. Specifically though, God has shown himself in the person and work of Jesus Christ , his Son (Colossians 1:15-20). God has made himself known for you because he loves you, he knows who you are and he seeks your heart (John 3:16). In view of eternity, science won't save you or me or anyone else. It may make life better, but it never has and never will give us eternal life. A relighous zealot I may be! But, my zeal is for the God who loves me (and you) and gave his Son in zealous love so that I may know him. I pray that someday you may know what that is like, my friend.

    • Posted By: viji @ 10/23/2007 23:32:29

      Comment: "Who has science saved from death?"

      Is that a serious question? Things like defibrillators, pacemakers and airbags don't fall out of the sky.

      • Posted By: badlogic @ 10/24/2007 12:49:09

        Comment: Uhm I don't see the point in the argument...but since we're on it. Show me ANYONE that can be proven to be raised by god because he felt like it and I'll buy you a