The Ghosts We Think We See

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Posted By: pat_wenders @ 10/30/2007 12:09:21 AM

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  Posted By: cassdenata @ 10/30/2007 8:34:26 AM

  They don't have to be 100% accurate, they just have to predict things greater than chance would imply (rolling dice). If somebody could do that, they'd be a worldwide sensation. ESP can also be tested easily in a lab. Regardless of if scientists know the mechanisms, ESP and psychic powers by definition must manifest in the real world in a testable manner, otherwise they are not ESP or psychic powers.

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    Posted By: pat_wenders @ 10/30/2007 11:59:33 AM

    "... must manifest in the real world in a testable manner...." Imagine that you were born 1000 years ago. Imagine that someone tells you that there are things like radio waves that could allow us to instantaneously communicate over vast distances. Could you test that (1000 years ago)? Does that mean that radio waves (the entire EM spectrum, minus visible light which is testable) don't exist? Does something only start to exist when the established scientific/intellectual community officially gives it their blessing? Back to the Present (or near Future) - what would you say if Science developed the technology that COULD directly measure psychic phenomena? Then it would be testable, and therefore would exist! So, are psychic things imaginary because scientists can't test them in their labs, or are scientific methods deficient and not yet able to detect that which DOES exist?
    As for testing ESP in labs - how do you test something you don't understand and don't believe in? I have conducted ESP experiments with a "sender' and "receiver" and the results were equal to, or worse than, the Law Of Averages (1 in 10, and 0 in 10, where 1 in 10 would have been average). BUT, during the same experiment I also had each observer write down their answers to the questions. Examining their results hours after the experiment I discovered that there were MANY agreements between observers (but not with the official "sender") and in several cases the odds were 1 in thousands! They did not communicate during the experiment or sit close enough to see eachothers answers. Was the failure of the "official" experiment due to the fact that ESP doesn't exist, or that the method didn't work?
    People who have highly developed psychic abilities (doesn't include me) don't waste their time trying to prove it to scientific non-believers. Those that you do see on TV are most likely magician-types who are making a career out of deceiving people, but that doesn't mean that it can't be real. Like you, I don't "believe" things unless they are "provable" OR I have experienced them myself. But if you don't have an open mind, you will probably reject the experiences and evidence when they do come to you. "To the person who doesn't believe, no evidence is sufficient."

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      Posted By: cassdenata @ 10/30/2007 1:25:08 PM

      Please publish your results in a peer-reviewed journal and you will be guaranteed to be a famous scientist. I highly doubt that there are numerous psychics who could become famous and help humanity with their predictions but don't like the limelight. You are still avoiding the question. Psychics and people with ESP are making claims they can predict things, read minds, etc. You are still avoiding my question. Regardless of undiscovered psychic energies, their claims can still be tested or else they aren't true. You can't move the goalpost. "As for testing ESP in labs - how do you test something you don't understand and don't believe in?". I would ask the opposite question and most of the time scientists are very concerned about biases. Still, if the experiments are done correctly and analyzed correctly it won't affect the results.
      SP

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        Posted By: pat_wenders @ 10/30/2007 8:44:10 PM

        "... if the experiments are done correctly..." - I can't disagree with that. BUT!!! - the psychic world is very different than the physical world, and what scientist would know how to set up the experiment? For Mental Telepathy, the "receiver" might get the correct answer psychically from the "sender", or from any of the experimenters who knew the correct response, or from their "spirit guide", or from an Earth-bound ghost who enjoys playing pranks, or they could see the answer by "remote viewing", or by their psychic body travelling to where the answer is viewable, reading the Akashic Records, or they could get it using precognition, etc. etc. How are the scientists going to control all of those possibilities when they don't even know what the possibilities are? Mastery of the conditions on the Earth plane means nothing on the psychic plane - the average highly-qualified scientist is a "babe in the woods" in the psychic world.
        Furthermore, the experimentee may fail during the test. The psychic world isn't "on demand" the way our physical abilities are in the physical world. Just because a person can consistently do something in their everyday environment doesn't mean they can do it in a science lab. Even Jesus, who had performed numerous miracles already, was unable to perform miracles in his home town, and there aren't too many people with stronger abilities than His.
        I do completely agree with you on one point - if a person publicly claims to have psychic abilities, and the ability to predict the future, they better be ready to "prove" it in public, or slink back into their closets. Failure to "prove" it doesn't make it untrue, but should teach them not to make claims they can't back up - it degrades the whole field.
        Helping humanity with predictions isn't as easy it sounds. If you warn people about something and they pay no attention, they will suffer the consequences and nobody was helped. (But the psychic can say "I told you so!" and gain some credibility.) If they do pay attention and change things to prevent some misfortune, how would you know? How can you prove that you prevented something from happening?
        Being a famous psychic may sound like a great honor, but it is also a great burden (ask Sylvia Browne or Edgar Cayce). Every minute you spend on yourself or your family is one more minute you could have used preventing disasters for others, or diagnosing otherwise undiagnoseable illnesses, etc. Your entire life becomes dedicated to helping others. How many people would be willing to make that sacrifice?

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  Posted By: cassdenata @ 10/30/2007 8:38:07 AM

  Our eyes also can't see x-rays, gamma rays, microwave rays, ultraviolet and infrared. We can't perceive sound in many wavelengths like bats, we can't detect the polarization of light, we can't see quarks, neutrinos, dark matter. We can't see distortions in gravity. But science can measure and detect these quite accurately. It is very convenient that your ghosts exist outside of these myriad possibilities.