A Research Revolution

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  • Posted By: kwietman @ 11/05/2007 2:19:01 AM

    One significant barrier to more rapid progress in pharmaceutical research is the litigious nature of the American healthcare system. Even established drugs, with known side effect profiles, are subject to massive suits and withdrawals if these side effects actually occur. Each and every drug potentially brought to the market needs to be evaluated not only for efficacy and safety but for the likelihood of being the subject of a capricious lawsuit designed not to protect consumers but to encourage settlements which enrich only the attorneys taking the cases.

  • Posted By: JWilly48519 @ 11/04/2007 10:35:22 PM

    Two societal barriers stand in the way of patient-genetics-specific pharma testing:
    1. Scientific acknowledgement of the requisite differentiations leads in socially controversial group vs. group directions, i.e. if my forebrain neurochemistry is different from yours, what happens if the stepwise-next scientific conclusion is that my ancestral group is inferior to your ancestral group in intelligence, or superior in physical abilities?
    2. Similarly, if anti-Alzheimers pharmaceutical X works on you but not on me, does that make you life-insurable until age 90, and me only until age 50? How about my ability to practice my profession? Suppose it's an anti-heart-attack drug...how about employment, or my driver's license?
    It's not sufficient to call for changes without effectively addressing the sensitive barriers...and not by just wishing them away, or dismissing those who regard them as important.

  • Posted By: JWilly48519 @ 11/04/2007 10:33:56 PM

    Two societal barriers stand in the way of patient-genetics-specific pharma testing:
    1. Scientific acknowledgement of the requisite differentiations leads in socially controversial group vs. group directions, i.e. if my forebrain neurochemistry is different from yours, what happens if the stepwise-next scientific conclusion is that my ancestral group is inferior to your ancestral group in intelligence, or superior in physical abilities?
    2. Similarly, if anti-Alzheimers pharmaceutical X works on you but not on me, does that make you life-insurable until age 90, and me only until age 50? How about my ability to practice my profession? Suppose it's an anti-heart-attack drug...how about employment, or my driver's license?
    It's not sufficient to call for changes without effectively addressing the sensitive barriers...and not by just wishing them away, or dismissing those who regard them as important.

  • Posted By: bhenry@bitwisesys.com @ 11/04/2007 9:17:42 PM

    I believe Mr Grove's comments are particularly insightful and need to be taken seriously. I believe his emphasis is on reform of the development process. If a drug fails, no efforts are undertaken to understand why the drug failed and valuable inductive information is lost. He knows what he's talking about -- if the electronics industry used the same processes the pharma industry uses, we'd still be using vacuum tubes.

  • Posted By: bhenry@bitwisesys.com @ 11/04/2007 9:08:28 PM

    I think Mr Grove's comments are particularaly insightful. If you'll read the article, his complaint is about the process, not technique. If the semiconductor industry used the same development process that the pharma industry does, we would still be using vacuum tubes.

  • Posted By: sasmon @ 11/04/2007 7:53:51 PM

    This is a classic managerial attitude coming from someone who, I assume from his comments, has little practical knowledge of how drugs affect a system as complex as the human body. One protein involved in the onset of cancer, may also have a critical role in the growth and replication of cells as well as tens of other interactions in various other molecular pathways. Targeting that one protein may be a solution, but in the non-cancerous cells that surround it and somatic cells in general it may create havoc when necessary functions are shut down as a result. In addition, finding a novel solution can be quickly abrogated by redundancies in the body which resumes the negative function while making the novel solution obsolete. Iressa (Gefitinib) is one drug in particular that was very effective as a breast cancer treatment until people developed a resistance to it by using another pathway to perform the same function. Research is currently underway to understand WHY this happened the way it did. Comments like his may sound great, but in practical application there is little benefit and much to lose. There is something to be said about letting the ???wild ducks quack??? . Looking into the past, great scientific achievements have come from allowing passionate scientists. Frederick Sanger, a scientist working at Cambridge was literally kicked out of his lab after what the university considered years of fruitless research. He moved his lab into a hallway and continued his work. Dr. Sanger was eventually awarded TWO Nobel prizes for his work-- one for sequencing and determining the structure of insulin and the other for helping to invent a way of sequencing DNA. This research jumpstarted the genomic and proteomic research we enjoy today. While cures aren???t fast or easy to come by, it is due to the dedicated work of scientists who devote their lives to improving the plight of man.

  • Posted By: Cascadia @ 11/04/2007 5:19:22 PM

    The health care industry is one of the few where people actually protest it when you come up with new or more cost effective ways to provide care. There is far more money to be made by keeping people ill then in actually curing them. A few years ago there was a Robert Wood Johnson demonstration project in Washington State called the Shared Care Plan, In it there combined personal health records with case managers and cut costs by $3,000 per person. When the funding ran out they dropped the program because it cost the local specialists and hospitals too much money. (E they lost income by keeping the patients health.

    • Posted By: sasmon @ 11/04/2007 7:45:15 PM

      The medical and health care practice fields and the topic of Mr. Groves, research -commercial, academic and other, are two very different systems. However, it has been shown that drug companies are much more interested in finding treatments than cures, i.e. repeat business. The story about the discovery of Heliobacter pylori and its connection to stomach ulcers may shed some light on that.

    • Posted By: notsofast @ 11/04/2007 6:56:32 PM

      It is true that the bias is toward expensive procedures and acute care as opposed to the drudge work of organizing information and care better. Health insurers are forced to pay for more expensive interventions with little marginal treatment gains, because poor use of research capital pays for studies that make it the standard of care. Capital is not being spent as quickly on care organization where it will produce a better ROI. Patients in many instances don't do their part by participating in their care, and they certainly don't demand these improvements. But many short-term demonstration projects give perfect cover for proponents of the status quo, because by enrolling small numbers of sick and recently hospitalized patients, they overstate the cost savings that would accrue to the general population and justify skepticism about the claims. These projects often have substantial indirect costs in the practices in which they are implemented, which are not accounted for and make the lack of long-term sustainability more rational than a first glance would suggest, especially in practices that are not part of integrated health plans. It is actually in large integrated health plans where most of the work of developing better information systems is occuring. Foundations, out really to make a political point with their dollars, often turn out to be every bit the show ponies as the biomedical establishment, choosing to miss a chance at being workhorses in the tough effort of transforming our health system.

  • Posted By: biotekr @ 11/04/2007 7:41:37 PM

    Grove displays an incredibly shallow knowledge of drug discovery and development and the many important differences between biological science and chip engineering. While making a new chip involves building on many incremental advances and solving new ones. Developing a drug is 10% engineering (choosing well a potential drug molecule) and then 90% unveiling how it works in people - an unbelievably complicated biological system. In most cases the drug doesn't work and you lose your investment, often having to start anew. Setting goals like "xyz drug this year" is fantasy.

  • Posted By: biotekr @ 11/04/2007 7:39:09 PM

    Grove displays an incredibly shallow knowledge of drug discovery and development and the many important differences between biological science and chip engineering. While making a new chip is building on many incremental advances and solving new ones. Developing a drug is 10% engineering (choosing well a potential drug molecule) and then 90% unveiling how it works in people - an unbelievably complicated biological system. In most cases the drug doesn't work and you lose your investment, often having to start anew. Setting goals like "xyz drug this year" is fantasy.

  • Posted By: sasmon @ 11/04/2007 7:29:44 PM

    This is a classic managerial attitude coming from someone who, I assume from his comments, has little practical knowledge of how drugs affect a system as complex as the human body. One protein involved in the onset of cancer, may also have a critical role in the growth and replication of cells as well as tens of other interactions in various other molecular pathways. Targeting that one protein may be a solution, but in the non-cancerous cells that surround it and somatic cells in general it may create havoc when necessary functions are shut down as a result. In addition, finding a novel solution can be quickly abrogated by redundancies in the body which resumes the negative function while making the novel solution obsolete. Iressa (Gefitinib) is one drug in particular that was very effective as a breast cancer treatment until people developed a resistance to it by using another pathway to perform the same function. Research is currently underway to understand WHY this happened the way it did. Comments like his may sound great, but in practical application there is little benefit and much to lose. There is something to be said about letting the ???wild ducks quack??? . Looking into the past, great scientific achievements have come from allowing passionate scientists. Frederick Sanger, a scientist working at Cambridge was literally kicked out of his lab after what the university considered years of fruitless research. He moved his lab into a hallway and continued his work. Dr. Sanger was eventually awarded TWO Nobel prizes for his work-- one for sequencing and determining the structure of insulin and the other for helping to invent a way of sequencing DNA. This research jumpstarted the genomic and proteomic research we enjoy today. While cures aren???t fast or easy to come by, it is due to the dedicated work of scientists who devote their lives to improving the plight of man.

  • Posted By: sasmon @ 11/04/2007 7:29:20 PM

    This is a classic managerial attitude coming from someone who, I assume from his comments, has little practical knowledge of how drugs affect a system as complex as the human body. One protein involved in the onset of cancer, may also have a critical role in the growth and replication of cells as well as tens of other interactions in various other molecular pathways. Targeting that one protein may be a solution, but in the non-cancerous cells that surround it and somatic cells in general it may create havoc when necessary functions are shut down as a result. In addition, finding a novel solution can be quickly abrogated by redundancies in the body which resumes the negative function while making the novel solution obsolete. Iressa (Gefitinib) is one drug in particular that was very effective as a breast cancer treatment until people developed a resistance to it by using another pathway to perform the same function. Research is currently underway to understand WHY this happened the way it did. Comments like his may sound great, but in practical application there is little benefit and much to lose. There is something to be said about letting the ???wild ducks quack??? . Looking into the past, great scientific achievements have come from allowing passionate scientists. Frederick Sanger, a scientist working at Cambridge was literally kicked out of his lab after what the university considered years of fruitless research. He moved his lab into a hallway and continued his work. Dr. Sanger was eventually awarded TWO Nobel prizes for his work-- one for sequencing and determining the structure of insulin and the other for helping to invent a way of sequencing DNA. This research jumpstarted the genomic and proteomic research we enjoy today. While cures aren???t fast or easy to come by, it is due to the dedicated work of scientists who devote their lives to improving the plight of man.

  • Posted By: MikeyP @ 11/04/2007 6:41:50 PM

    I find Grove's position to be naive and ill informed. There are huge, vast, differences between how a drug is developed and how an electronic device is developed. While there is much known about how to design and fabricate chips and improve them in that way, there is much about biology still to be learned and much to be done to understand how best to treat an illness. Hence the need for these so-called pointless animal experiments that don't lead anywhere. What would Grove prefer -- to test things in humans right away and see how they work? It's not like a piece of electronic equipment - if it fails, you throw it away. If a drug fails in any one of a million ways that drugs could possibly fail, people die. Pharmaceutical science needs to be driven by scientists, not by wannabes who are frustrated by the pace. The cost is much too high.

  • Posted By: AK_kidsRN_mom @ 11/04/2007 6:40:01 PM

    As a "patient" with several labels from the medical community AND a member of the medical community, I feel the frustration from both sides. I've been involved in clinical studies as a health care provider and have seen the bureaucratic bologna that happens. There are several phases to clinical trials, and when we get to the point of testing on people, well how many people are raising their hands? Some of us may say, "I would do it!!", but there is a lot of risk for both medical community and pharmaceutical trial participant. What about medications and pregnant women? Doctors don't know what they can given pregnant women b/c the FDA won't approve testing on pregnant women b/c of the theoretical risk to the fetus. That's a no-brainer. Look at all of the press the FDA and medical community is getting over cold medicines... Parents are told to NOT give medicines to infants/toddlers less than 2 yrs, and they do it anyway, and then get upset when there are poor outcomes and now NOBODY can give anything to children less than 6 yrs old. There is way more to this whole dilemma than the FDA and NIH; Intel dealt with computer chips and hopefully didn't put something into someone's body. We're talking apples and oranges...

  • Posted By: bellwetherkerry @ 11/04/2007 6:18:47 PM

    The people who rose to the top of the current system got there by playing by the old rules. If you are going to change the system, you have to create separate hybrid systems that can be sheltered and protected -- kept a little longer in the incubator.

    Kerry O'Connor

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