The Road Less Taken

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  • Posted By: Aaron Bonn @ 11/16/2007 3:10:12 PM

    The fact that Moulitsas fails to address here is that simply defunding the war, as he suggests, does not require the President, as commander in chief, to withdraw the troops from Iraq, and Democrats have no reason to believe that George Bush will make such a withdrawal if faced with a lack of funds. If funding is withdrawn, but the troops are not, the troops will then be stuck in a war zone WITHOUT the supplies and equipment that they need to survive.

    Speaking as an opponent of this war who believes troops should have been withdrawn from Iraq years ago, I hold the course of action suggested by Moulitsas, and others of similar mind, to be reckless and irresponsible in the extreme. Pelosi and Reid were wise to resist such calls.

    • Posted By: AshesAllFallDown @ 11/16/2007 6:24:26 PM

      Surely our military commanders won't "leave troops in harm's way."

      They will be forced to reduce the scope of the mission. This dog don't hunt.

      This

      • Posted By: mittons45@yahoo.com @ 11/17/2007 6:37:39 AM

        Blackwater already has the best equipment and supplies. The troops are scrounging around in garbage dumbs lloking for metal to reinforce their shitty armor while drinking tainted water and food. supplied by Haliburton. Don't bring the troops home and get accused of not supporting them, instead leave them their to get killed and maimed for political gain in 08. I wish people like you were forced to pay for your war and to serve in it.

      • Posted By: Aaron Bonn @ 11/16/2007 7:05:11 PM

        Our military commanders won't withdraw troops from Iraq until and unless George Bush tells them to. They follow an chain of command, and he is at the top of it. Democrats had a chance in 04 to change that, but they failed. Now we're stuck.

        You appear to be assuming that Bush, when faced with a denial of funds for his war, will be able to swallow his pride, get over his obstinace, and do what's right for the country by withdrawing the troops from the theatre of war. Perhaps a few years ago, I would have been willing to give Bush the benefit of the doubt on this, and to make that assumption too. After Hurricane Katrina, I make no such assumptions about the man. He is as venal, obstinate, and self absorbed as they come, and there is no question in my mind that he has it in him to dig in and leave the troops in just such a state - stuck in a war zone without the supplies and equipment that they need - rather than admit political defeat.

    • Posted By: tbetz @ 11/16/2007 3:28:10 PM

      Forcing our troops in harm's way (contrary to a supermajority of Americans as expressed by their Confgressional representatives) by stealing money from funded programs to prop up his unfunded pet occupation of Iraq is as high a crime as could be imagined. A quick Bill of Impeachment and a quicker trial would be called for in such a case. And if Republicans in the Senate line up with the Thief in Chief, woe betide them the next time they come before their constituents.

      • Posted By: Aaron Bonn @ 11/16/2007 3:58:15 PM

        By sustaining Bush's veto of the redeployment measure that the Democrats DID pass, Republicans in Congress have shown themselves to be just as obstinate as he, and I see no reason why that obstinacy would subside should such a showdown occur. They have chosen their side, and they will stick with it to the end.

        By voting Republican in spite of the increasing unpopularity of the war, and in contradistinction to the trend in the rest of the country, the constituents of congressional Republicans have shown themselves to be just as obstinate, and I see no reason to believe that they will flip either. They too have chosen their side.

        You have placed your faith in the notion that, faced with a funding shortfall, Bush will either blink or be impeached and expelled. I think your faith in these outcomes is misguided. There are other possible outcomes. Meanwhile in this hypothetical situation, while we would be going through the possibly (if not probably) futile impeachment proceedings, the troops would still be stuck in a war zone without equipment and supplies.

        I maintain that Pelosi and Reid were wise to resist the calls of those who would set us on this course.

        • Posted By: tbetz @ 11/16/2007 4:39:38 PM

          Standing up for the Constitution against a would-be dictator is never futile, even if it fails to obtain the best possible outcome. The fact that you have put forth your best effort demonstrates to the world that you have not yielded to the will of the dictator, and puts heart into allies who might otherwise have been cowed into silence.

          This is the lesson that the Democratic leadership has needed to learn; that they can not win if they do not fight.

          I'm hoping that they have begun to learn, after 12 years of forgetting.

          • Posted By: Aaron Bonn @ 11/16/2007 5:21:23 PM

            You are missing my point. What concerns me is not the possible (if not probable) failure of an impeachment proceeding. What concerns me is the possibility of American soldiers being stuck in a war zone without the equipment and supplies that they need while we are busy trying to impeach and expel a President who we don't have the votes to impeach and expel.

            Cutting off funds for the troops is not just a political statement. There are real world consequences to that act, consequences that will undoubtedly land squarely on the troops themselves. Pelosi and Reid are acitng to make sure that the Democrats' political statements don't come at the expense of our soldiers. That's not cowardice. That's wisdom.

    • Posted By: tbetz @ 11/16/2007 3:32:56 PM

      Forcing our troops to remain in harm's way (contrary to the desires of a supermajority of Americans, as expressed by their elected Representatives) by stealing money from funder programs to stubbornly finance his pet occupation of a country he invaded illegally is about as high a crime as one could imagine.

      It would call for a quick Bill of Impeachment, and an even quicker trial and conviction; and woe betide any Republican Senators who choose to stand with the murderous Thief-In-Chief instead of with the American people the next time they come before the voters.

      • Posted By: cskendrick @ 11/16/2007 4:22:21 PM

        Bush is welcome to ask the Republicans to donate their lives and fortunes to the war effort.

        But the American people, by and large, are done with him, done with his war, and done with Republicans.

        I'd not advise the GOP to continue spending lives and gold that is not theirs.

        2006 might get to be a habit.

  • Posted By: ArmyAunt @ 11/16/2007 4:30:31 PM

    You do know Newsweek, that the vast majority of posts in here will be from the Kos website don't you?
    They will come over here and post their talking points.

    "There's this guy Markos, who runs a really awesome blog. Looks like his first Newsweek column has been published online:
    For a party that won historic gains in 2006, the Democrats have proven surprisingly reluctant to deliver on their chief campaign promise: forcing George Bush and his Republican Party to change course on their disastrous war in Iraq.

    Check out the rest. It rocks."
    http://www.dailykos.com/

    Front paged no less!! The fact is, most of the comments on here will no reflect the American people, they will only reflect what those on the dailykos think.
    God help us all.

    • Posted By: mittons45@yahoo.com @ 11/17/2007 6:32:35 AM

      "the American people" ? So not only do you get to attack nations, you get to decide who the hell is a real American and then attack Americans who disagree with you as unAmerican? Sounds like Rush Limbaugh logic to me. Markos and DailyKos give a voice to people who don't agree with Fox, the Clinton News Network, or the DLC. Some of us support the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party, and we want the conservative Republicans that have infiltrated it (Lieberman, Nelson twins, and corporate Hillary) gone. We are the Party of FDR, Paul Wellstone and Howard Dean. I'm 62, a life long Democrat, and I'm sick of people like you, insane Bush/Cheney, and the corporate owned beltway destroying my country and the futures of our children. Given the pool of idiots running for President on the Republican ticket and the coronation of Queen Hillary by the establishment media and Democratic Party, its a wonder anybody shows up to vote on Diebold machines.

    • Posted By: tbetz @ 11/16/2007 4:42:23 PM

      Do you have anything substantive to say, or are you just here to point out the blindingly obvious? Of course people who agree with Markos are going to post comments that agree with him.

      Feel free to come cheerlead Karl Rove when he posts what the American Enterprise Institute's ghostwriters have prepared for him to post.

  • Posted By: Le_Patriot @ 11/16/2007 6:03:39 PM

    Anti-War sentiment of "70%" does not mean 70% want to yank the troops and not fund them. In fact, more than half of Americans in most polls I've seen are NOT in favor off immediate withdrawal, because of the chaos it wouild cost. It is sad that people spin poll results in a general sense to reinforce their views.

    • Posted By: mittons45@yahoo.com @ 11/17/2007 6:23:15 AM

      Fine by me, but you can pay for it. If people can refuse to fund abortions with public funds, I can refuse to fund an illegal war with public funds. Quit billing my grandchildren's credit card for your positions. You pay for it.

  • Posted By: mittons45@yahoo.com @ 11/17/2007 6:16:14 AM

    DLC and Blue Democrats are Republicans, and Pelosi and Reid are their leaders. This 62 year old, life long Democrat is never voting for Hillary, Queen of the DLC.

  • Posted By: joycejewel @ 11/17/2007 6:06:04 AM

    Who really won the Vegas debate? In my opinion..No one..First of all, it appears that the debate was tainted. I thought Biden did well. It appears that Hilary's questions were planted along with 51% women staging a "boo" at the same time to make sure Obama and Edwards were not heard in an effort to throw them off guard anytime they said anything against her (how cheap). Also if Obama was asked why he favored drivers license for illegal aliens why wasn't Hilary Clinton questioned about her flip-flop on the issue. Whether right or wrong at least Obama's view on the subject is not a flip-flop. When Hilary said "no" on her previous "yes" she was not drilled on why? Hmmm interesting. Edwards and Obama were "booed" (staged response) while expressing their views. This should be "banned" from the debates. It's not fair to neither the Republican or Democratic candidate. It clearly shows that is prior intentional planned staging against the opponents you fear losing to the most! You could tell who that person posing as the commentator favored he skipped key subjects that would trip up Hilary Clinton. Feel sorry for the rest of the guys who appeared to have totally been shafted in the whole deal. Who won the debate? Certainly not Hilary Clinton!

  • Posted By: joycejewel @ 11/17/2007 5:46:23 AM

    Las Vegas debate: Fox News reported that a young lady came forward and said she was told to ask Hilary Clinton if she liked diamonds or pearls and was not given the opportunity to ask Hilary the question she came there to ask her. If this is true here again is the planting and staging in favor of Hilary Clinton. Hilary. We are watching trying to pick the best candidate. If this is happening for Hilary, this is not fair to either Democrats or Republicans. If Fox News aired this I know CNN knows about this. Why has CNN not reported this? The American people have the right to know who she is and if CNN is anyway in involved.

  • Posted By: apsmith @ 11/17/2007 1:29:13 AM

    When British troops announced they were leaving Basra, insurgent attacks ceased. There's a simple solution to the continuing violence in Iraq now: announce we're leaving too. Markos is absolutely right.

  • Posted By: breathingstill @ 11/16/2007 11:34:08 PM

    What Markos is saying should not even need to be said let alone debated. Democratics won the 2006 election on one primary promise - to end the war - period, end of story. All the nonsense about the troops not having the right equipment is a highly convenient argument. Where were the republicans when, for the first 3 years of this illegal war our troops parents had to, in many cases, get them the equipment the army could not or chose not to provide. That argument does not have any basis in historical fact and the republicans do themselves and the troops a diservice even bringing it up.

  • Posted By: deebat @ 11/16/2007 8:35:06 PM

    Hey, Newsweek: You need a better discussion board. How many double- and triple-posts are acceptable before you figure out that this thing can't handle the traffic? And how about making it possible to read the posts from top to bottom -- you know, the way most Western readers read? Oh, and why, when I chose a FIVE-letter password for my new account, did your system send me an error that demanded I enter a password longer than FOUR characters? (Isn't FIVE longer than FOUR?) Come on, guys. If you don't want to look like the old media you are, you need to put up better stuff than this.

    Now I will attempt to post my comment and see how many times it shows up.

  • Posted By: deebat @ 11/16/2007 8:29:52 PM

    Newsweek: You need a better discussion board. How many multiple posts will you tolerate before you figure out that this thing can't handle the traffic? And how about making it possible to read the posts from top to bottom -- you know, the way most Western readers read?

  • Posted By: mfenwick @ 11/16/2007 8:11:10 PM

    I have said before and will say again: There are no differences between Democrats and Republicans. I won $200 in bets that the Democrats would do nothing about this war. They stand as much to gain from it as do the Republicans. Even Michael Moore has Haliburton stock. Anyone who believes this war will eventually end without a violent revolution in this country is a fool.

  • Posted By: ibonewits @ 11/16/2007 7:39:23 PM

    There will be plenty of money to bring the troops home safely; just not enough to control the oil fields for Exxon and Shell. Let *them* pay private mercenaries to steal the oil instead of using our brave sons and daughters.

  • Posted By: ibonewits @ 11/16/2007 7:38:54 PM

    There will be plenty of money to bring the troops home safely; just not enough to control the oil fields for Exxon and Shell. Let *them* pay private mercenaries to steal the oil instead of using our brave sons and daughters.

  • Posted By: ibonewits @ 11/16/2007 7:36:19 PM

    There will be plenty of money to bring the troops home safely; just not enough to control the oil fields for Exxon and Shell. Let *them* pay private mercenaries to steal the oil instead of using our brave sons and daughters.

  • Posted By: AshesAllFallDown @ 11/16/2007 6:22:32 PM

    our military commanders WON'T leave the troops in peril due to lack of funding, they will surely be forced to reduce the scope of the mission. The "troops in peril" argument is a red herring.

    • Posted By: Aaron Bonn @ 11/16/2007 7:10:51 PM

      As I said in my response to you below - our military commanders follow a chain of command, and Bush is at the top of it. They will not withdraw troops from Iraq until and unless Bush authorizes them to.

  • Posted By: ArmyAunt @ 11/16/2007 4:25:59 PM

    Good Lord The Kos Kiddies are out in force!
    What a joke.

    • Posted By: kitebro @ 11/16/2007 7:05:35 PM

      I'm 49. "Kos Kiddies" is extremely childish. Have you no sense of irony?

    • Posted By: metasailor @ 11/16/2007 5:14:13 PM

      Please feel free to post your own insightful arguments and refutations.

      It doesn't only have to be 'Kos kiddies' - you could have something to say too, if you felt like it.

  • Posted By: kitebro @ 11/16/2007 6:56:51 PM

    "Anti-war sentiment among the American people is now approaching 70 percent". Markos didn't say that 70% of Americans want an immediate pull-out. To claim he did is to spin his words to prove a flawed point. It's a shame that some people are inclined to do that.

  • Posted By: kitebro @ 11/16/2007 6:54:52 PM

    "anti-war sentiment among the American people is now approaching 70 percent". Markos didn't say 70% want an immediate pull-out. To claim he did is to spin his words to prove a flawed point. It's a shame that many people tend to do that.

  • Posted By: Chashb7 @ 11/16/2007 5:22:51 PM

    How about more links in the article? Lots of polls talked about, it would be useful to have the links for back up. This is on the internet, and it should be linked up to provide support for the facts in the article.

  • Posted By: Snud @ 11/16/2007 4:43:02 PM

    That's very inciteful armyaunt but if God needs to help save anyone it's America from the bungling ineptitude of GWB, his party and its blind-faith supporters like you.

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