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Utah’s Cross Controversy
The Utah Highway Patrol Association is faced with a lawsuit over placing by the side of the road crosses honoring state troopers killed in the line of duty.
Nov 17, 2007 | Updated: 3:11 p.m. ET Nov 17, 2007
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Posted By: idli007 @ 04/08/2009 10:50:43 PM
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Posted By: WJPostonNW @ 03/17/2009 9:52:11 AM
Just to be clear, the State of Utah argued (and the trial court judge agreed) that the cross is not a Christian symbol? As I Christian, I take offense to this. We can debate about whether it is proper to put a Christian symbol on public land, but this was not the thrust of the argument in this case. The real concern that Christians (and people of other faiths as well) should have with this case is that a judge in Utah thinks he has the power to determine what is a religious symbol and what is not. Would this judge also call the Bible just another book to be placed on the fiction shelf at the local public library?
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Posted By: mchave35 @ 07/13/2008 7:13:35 PM
This isn't about faith, this is about people that obviously have too much time on there hands, and even though they probobly hate it when anyone tries to preach to them, and make them beleive in something they do not beleive in , they are willing to do just that. Going to the point of legal action. This is a FREE country. If you do not want to see the crosses as a religeous article, then don't....and if you do, do. Incorporate self observance, and quit trying to decide for the general public. God, or not, no one has the right to tell anyone what to think, do, or feel. If you do not like it, don't pay attention, the World does not revole around you. Get a life!
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Posted By: Joyfl @ 12/21/2007 6:35:35 PM
My Son is a Police Officer and I applaud Utah for this act !!!
Wake up people, if you used as much energy trying to protest our government's lack of help with the fuel situation, you'd actually be doing something........
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Posted By: Augie BenDoggie @ 12/11/2007 5:14:33 PM
test.
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Posted By: Augie BenDoggie @ 12/11/2007 5:20:27 PM
3. Think about the following scenario......
If time-travel were possible today, and you could travel back into time
to change the course of human history....would atheists use that technology
in an attempt to save Jesus from dying on that cross, preventing Christianity?
Would they kidnap or kill Judas, preventing him from betraying Jesus to the
Romans and the Sahnedrin?
In order to insure that the argument, that there is no God, has a
better chance of acceptance, as 'fact' among all who would otherwise wish to
believe, would atheists consider this kind of action, to achieve supremacy
for their belief system? Or would attempts such as these, if possible and
proven successful, eliminate the first atheists from existence...causing a
dire time paradox?-
Posted By: Augie BenDoggie @ 12/11/2007 5:43:05 PM
4. Or, what about THIS
What would the symbol of Christianity be today if,
Cesar Tiberius, then ruler of the Roman Empire, got such a ka-knock on the noggin,
decided in his infinite Emperor's wisdom, to send word to Pontius Pilate,
then prefect ruler of then-Judea...that killing notorious would-be revolutionaries,
state's enemies, and other nefarious criminals, on CROSS-SHAPED Crucifixes, was,
by order of the Emporer, hereby forbidden!
Pontius Pilate receives this word from his Emperor. And being the good and dutiful
servant of the Senate and the Emperor of Rome, orders his soldiers under his command that
crucifixions on CROSS-SHAPED crucifixes is forbidden, and relates to his men that if
they commit such a grave offense, while carrying out the will of the state,
they'll get chopped up and fed to the lions at the Colliseum.
So....the soldiers, obeying their prefect, take exceptional care to build their crucifixes
for their condemned as ANY OTHER SHAPE EXECPT CROSS-SHAPED, fearing the punishment of the
prefect if they violated the order.-
Posted By: Augie BenDoggie @ 12/11/2007 5:48:14 PM
Now folks, with THAT in mind...what results if Jesus was put to death by....
crucifixion on a T-shaped battlement, like they did to Spartacus and many others,
all down the Apian way....
_ry _o imagine wri_ing if the A_heis_' effor_s were succesful. _hey would have _o figh_ over how _o
comfor_ably spell _hier iden_i_ies, as well as _he agnos_ics, who would probably be really
_icked off a_ _hem. As well as mostly everyone else, including Noah Webs_er, au_hor of the Dic_ionary.....
Imagine if the crucifix was Y-shaped, or I-shaped, or even A-shaped, or H-shaped???
Imagine if they just nailed poor Jesus to a large oak tree, or any tree, for that matter?
Would the government re-forestation services and the National Park System
be targeted by atheists as promoting religion with their growing of trees??-
Posted By: Augie BenDoggie @ 12/11/2007 5:53:35 PM
Imagine if electricity was used back then....
Would we non-atheists be praying wearing the metal skull-caps, or knife switches, from electric chairs?
Would brine solutions, used to soak the shaved heads of the condemned for better current flow,
be removed from high-school chemistry classes as religious artifacts and expressions of worship?
What if jesus was hurled from a catapult to his demise?
Forgive them father, they know not what they
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooo.....................?-
Posted By: Augie BenDoggie @ 12/11/2007 5:59:10 PM
What if the romans decided to shape the crucifiux into a star-of-david, or even a
jewish menorah? With candles lit each hour he hung there, even?
What would happen if they decided to HANG jesus,
would we be praying to dangling Nooses? God help the Jena Six!
or depictions of trap-doors, leading to hungry alligators?
Imagine Homer Simpson's Boss, Evil Mr. Burns, about to respond to Homer's
asking for a raise, by sending him down to his hungry alligators....
"Don't tell those atheists, Homer, but you have to sanctified first, by my elders of the congregation...
down.......
there......"
God forbid, Jesus to be crucified on a SWASTIKA-shaped crucifix?-
Posted By: Augie BenDoggie @ 12/11/2007 6:01:55 PM
Or even off the top tip of a red crescent....or ANY color crescent? What would the poor atheist do
when certain phases of the moom show up? Who would they sue then? God?!
According to the Atheists, He doesn't exist!
Then What?! Sue the Government for not blocking out the sky at the proper moments, allowing offending
displays to be seen in public airspace?!
What happens if a comet hit the moon at the right spot, causing a CHRISTIAN CROSS-SHAPED CRACK in the moon?!
What in the name of _________ are the Atheists gonna do THEN ?!?!?!-
Posted By: Augie BenDoggie @ 12/13/2007 8:58:29 AM
When in fact, throughout all the history of the prophets of the Bible, ranging from Daniel, to Amos, to Ezekiel, to Isaiah, to all the others that came many years BEFORE the birth of Jesus...correctly predicted (or Foretold, if you like...) How the Son of God would be born, where he would be born, how he would live, what his ministry would be, and even, the how-when-where-what-and why of the final days of his life, leading to his execution.
Many Many prophets, so remote from each other through time and space, all foretold the Who and What of Jesus....they called him Immanuel, i think...meaning "God with us"
And if all those prophets, all those men, vastly remote and apart from each other, saw the same thing....and then many many many years later Jesus came to fulfill all those prophecies.....ALL OF THEM....then how are the Atheists going to prove to any of us that there is no God?
Perhaps it is God they have to thank for their existence and ability to deny his.
But before they can thank him, they have to acknowledge he exists, first.
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Posted By: Augie BenDoggie @ 12/13/2007 8:43:56 AM
Or... What happened if they decide to BEHEAD poor Jesus, like they did John the Baptist? Would we all be praying to Guillotines or Axes?
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Posted By: skier842 @ 12/03/2007 9:41:33 PM
The crosses as a memorial to fallen troopers? Then how come you can???t even read their names unless you pulled over. Let???s really honor the fallen troopers by having a bridge named after them like other states do and get away from the religious connotation. Or make the beehive the same size as the cross that way you can read their names, but that???s not what proponents want to portray. Take a look at the cross in the Echo Rest area. You can see it a half mile away on a hill top but you can???t see that its a memorial till you pull into the rest area and climb the hill, so much for a memorial for the trooper. If a fallen trooper was a Jew or a Muslin would they put up their symbol to them and how long would the so called religious allow it to stand. If grandma dies at home do you plant a cross in the front lawn or if grandpa died in the hospital do they put a cross in the front lawn of the hospital, NO so why put one on the highway? Do accident victims deserve any greater recognition then others? Stick the cross in the cemetery where they belong.
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Posted By: Augie BenDoggie @ 12/11/2007 6:35:04 PM
Utah build bridges in memoriam for fallen troopers? Sure...all they gotta do get killed next to a river, that is...if Utah had enough rivers...
So what happens if the poor trooper gets shot dead in the line of duty in salt lake city, inside a bar selling three-two beer?! People would have to pay membership dues to get in and see the memorial of WHAT?
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Posted By: Augie BenDoggie @ 12/11/2007 5:17:19 PM
I'm writing a critical thinking paper and i would like to ask
certain questions, that you may or may not answer.......
1. Is the image of a cross, to an atheist,
more specifically... the members in "American Atheists", like...
images of swastikas to the Jewish or Jewish Americans, or,
burning crosses or dangling nooses are to Black Americans?
Does that symbol, to an atheist, signify evil to them?
2. If it turned out the trooper was possibly an Atheist himself,
what kind of 12-foot symbol would he think, ought to be placed there?
How do you erect a hole, 12 feet high, in the air?
Once, I saw a cartoon of Secret Squirrel, in where one of his
gimmicks was the secret hole, that he pulled outta his trenchcoat,
whenever he wanted something to fall and disappear into
'ab-so-lute-ly NOTHING!' Maybe we can ask the Nicktoons network
for some insight.....
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Posted By: midnight05 @ 11/17/2007 3:26:33 PM
If the policemen were all Christian, I would have no objection to it. It's not in a municipal building or office. If any of the officers were not Christian, I would hope that the appropriate symbol were placed as a memorial.
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Posted By: NELEGER @ 11/17/2007 8:53:14 PM
The cross is a perfect sysmbol because it represents who the fallen trooper was. A Christian trooper should have a cross, a Jewish one a star of David, and an Atheist nothing, because their set of religious beliefs is a very important representation of who they are, and more so after death. Amen.
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Posted By: Just Curious @ 11/17/2007 11:09:37 PM
I'm just curious, if a fallen officer was a practicing Satanist (there must be some out there) would there be any objections, from the posters here, to an upside-down cross for a marker?
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Posted By: NMBioGrad @ 11/18/2007 4:16:09 AM
I agree, Just Curious. If I were to die in the line of duty in Utah, would they erect a 12 foot high Flying Spaghetti Monster to respect my faith? I would imagine that a few Utahans might be upset at 12 foot high pentagrams on public lands for fallen wiccans.
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Posted By: skier842 @ 12/03/2007 9:27:25 PM
Putting the Crosses does little as a memiorial to the troopers as you can't read the names while driving, only the cross is visiable not even the Beehive. Especially the one in the Echo Rest Area it can bee seen a good half mile away but intil you pulling to the rest area, clime the hill do you see it's a memorial to a fallen trooper. Why don't they have the beehive as a symbol instead of a cross? Maybe because it's not the religious symbol they want to portray? How lon would a Star of David or a Muslin symbol last before it's torn down. If people put crosses as amemorial to their loved ones who die on the highway why don't they put one on their lawn when someone dies a home or in a hospital front yard when grandpa dies in the hospital? Only accident victims deserve special recognition. How about naming a bridge after a trooper vs a religious symbol?
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Posted By: Seini Toa @ 11/30/2007 3:54:41 PM
It wasn't the fact the state was using crosses for the dead troopers; it was the fact that other wreaths, crosses, and markers placed on areas of deaths were discarded as trash and removed by state workers. The public only wanted the same rights to show a memorial for their dead loved ones as the Utah State Highway Patrol was doing. Is is amazing the issue became an "aethiest" issue when in fact it was grieving families offended by thier memorials being removed as trash, but no one in the state was removing the crosses for the troopers. This has everything to do with equal rights. I think the crosses are a fantastic way of honoring the people that put thier lives on the line for us; however, it should also be okay for a husband, wife, father, mother, or children to place a small memorial alongside the road where thier loved one was killed without it being thrown away as trash. The question is: why is it okay for the troopers, but not others killed on the highways to show thier loss and grief and a form of remembrance?
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Posted By: bradley37 @ 11/29/2007 5:23:22 PM
My condolences to the families who lost loved ones. My family prays for each of you constantly. May God bless your family with comfort. My family prays for the Athiest just as much as well as the leaders of this country. You all weigh heavy on our hearts
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Posted By: skier8809 @ 11/29/2007 1:36:51 PM
The Constitution states that there shall be a strict separation between church and state. It does not require that the state adopt an anti-religiious approach to all things. As wee were founded as a judeo-christian society, certain symbols of that ethic have become non-religious symbols, such as the cross signifying honor to the deceased. This opposition from this fringe group, and they are an extreme fringe group, is not based on separation of church and state, but rather an absolute anti-religious bias. The court should sumararily dismiss the case as without merit and award damages to the state for a frivilous lawsuit. The attorney representing the group should be disbarred for violation of his/her bar oath.
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Posted By: mfritzen @ 11/29/2007 8:45:15 AM
The cross has everything to do with Jesus Christ. Believers in Christ should stop hiding Him. Athiests are not afraid to stand up for what they believe in. "One day every knee will bow and tongue confess He is Lord." On this day, how will we answer to Him? On this day all people will know that they were born precious unto the Lord.
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Posted By: 1pov @ 11/27/2007 1:35:17 PM
Ms Taylor:
A stick lying perpendicular on top of another stick is not in and of itself religious.
Seperation of church and state is not in the Constitution.
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Posted By: 1pov @ 11/27/2007 1:30:44 PM
The verticle stick is needed to hold the horizontal stick up. Are these names supposed to float?
The cross in of itself is not religious. What will be next, Arlington Cemetary? Will a few people be allowed to desecrate the graves of many war heros?
Why are the many catering to the few who take offence where none is given?
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Posted By: bubba1939 @ 11/26/2007 11:19:31 PM
maybe the american people need to wake up look at how many freedoms they are losing this is one that the people need to decide once and for all, put it on the national ballot let the people vote it up or down and you are right there is no constitional separation of church and state but there a bunch of illiterate idiots that think they sound important using the terminology. lets have a vote
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Posted By: andso @ 11/26/2007 2:01:59 PM
Ms Taylor needs to read the Constitution, there is NO seperation of church and state. There is one about the government establishing a STATE RELIGION, it would help if people knew what they were talking about. Reading that particular document might help.
Posted By: bethitaylor @ 11/25/2007 10:33:36 PM
Comment: A cross is a cross. Placing it on public property violates the constitutional separation of church and state. This isn't about offending Christians or athiests. It's about upholding the rule of law. They should come down.
Beth Taylor
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Posted By: ariberry @ 11/25/2007 11:12:20 PM
Yes a cross is a cross, maybe some associate it with religion but there are so many out there who just associate it with a memorial. Being from Texas I can promise you that there are at leasts hundreds of crosses on the roads around here commemorating where someone has died in a car accident or was kidnapped, etc. One of those is not even 3 miles from my home for a 19 year old killed by the side of the highway this last summer. The argument is stupid and ridiculous. Let this Texas based group come and fight that battle here in their home state, they'll lose really quick, which must be why they went for another state. As long as there is no religius quotes (like the 10 commandments) there is no proof that it is about a religious aspect at all. To take offense for something that is so small is just bs. They would be better off trying to fight for gay marriages which centers more around the religous belief that being gay is a sin than to fight this battle. At least it is here in Texas.....
Alicia
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Posted By: bethitaylor @ 11/25/2007 10:33:36 PM
A cross is a cross. Placing it on public property violates the constitutional separation of church and state. This isn't about offending Christians or athiests. It's about upholding the rule of law. They should come down.
Beth Taylor
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Posted By: Nadine LaFrance @ 11/25/2007 3:16:34 PM
Let the crosses stand! Lawssuits are a waste of money. Why not give they money for those who can not afford to lay to rest their dead.
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Posted By: Nadine LaFrance @ 11/25/2007 3:06:25 PM
Let the crosses stand.
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