Missed Opportunity

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  • Posted By: DMVL @ 12/07/2007 11:51:04 AM

    "John Adams-"Our constitution was made for a moral and religious people"-that is Evangelicalism's favorite proof-text for religion's role in public life."

    What Evangelicals do not understand is that the separation of church and state was to protect the practice of all religions from governmental interference. Or, prevent the kind of religious persecution by the state that took place in 16th and 17th century England on behalf of the Church of England. John Adams' quote does not specify a particular religion, just that our constitution protects "a moral and religious people," not just "a religious people."

    So, while these Evangelicals are trying to inject their religion into our government, they ought to consider that they are trying to destroy one of the foundations on which this country was created.

    • Posted By: AlaskaEscapes @ 12/07/2007 9:49:13 PM

      The only people trying to inject religion into government and this election is the press. He wouldn't have had to even give this speech if not for them. I am not a religious person, but even I can recognize the war on religion that has been going on for 25 years.

  • Posted By: Michael V. @ 12/07/2007 3:18:55 PM

    So, as a libertarian believing in a complete, unambiguous separation of state from church, none of the leading candidates are willing to support my constitutional rights? And as an atheist, I can expect none of the leading candidates to respect my freedom from religion? Is that what they're saying, there is no room for "secularists" or atheists in American life?

    • Posted By: AlaskaEscapes @ 12/07/2007 9:34:57 PM

      So, as a libertarian Christian, I should not mention my faith because it offends you? You should perhaps take a few history lessons. Tolerant people built this country. The media has had a war on religion for 25 years. They should expect a backlash since 80% of the country claims to believe in a God.
      AlaskaEscapes

  • Posted By: NWReader @ 12/07/2007 9:19:09 PM

    Romney described a religion of secularism, called it "wrong" and without taking breath, asked for religious tolerance. In showing no tolerance for secularism, which he defined as a religion, Romney brilliantly illustrated the level of tolerance he himself posesses: tolerance for him, for people he wants to convince to believe in (and vote for) him, and none for anyone else. And this AFTER reminding his audience that there is to be no religious test to hold an elected office. This speach was aimed for the evangelical base he'd like to retrieve from Huckabee, and the media. No one else seems to matter much.

  • Posted By: monahan823 @ 12/07/2007 9:09:38 PM

    THe whole point of Kennedy's speech was to promise Protestants that the Pope would not influence American policies by pressuring a Catholic President. Nobody thinks the Elders of the Mormon Church are going to try to rule America through Romney. Romney's speech was a waste of time that answered questions nobody is asking.

  • Posted By: Peter Johnson @ 12/07/2007 8:42:01 PM

    This is just typical Woodward spouting off about anything related to Mormons. Read any of his stuff about Mormons for the last 25 years. It's all the same. He's utterly predictable. He obviously has his mind made up about their religion but occasionally I like to be surprised with a new and original insight here and there.

  • Posted By: Rottach @ 12/07/2007 7:53:11 PM

    This whole diatribe by so many evangelicals who claim Mormons are not Christians and proceed to label them as a dangerous cult, is that by doing so they are not being "Christlike" themselves! Their hypocrisy is glaringly evident. Amazing few are commenting on their being such hypocrites.

  • Posted By: Thisisme @ 12/07/2007 2:42:30 PM

    KENNETH WOODWARD......YOU'RE A MORON. YOU DIDN'T LISTEN TO ANYTHING HE SAID DID YOU? NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO BE A SPOKESPERSON FOR THEIR RELIGION AND CHURCH AND STATE AFFAIRS ARE TO BE HANDLED SEPARATELY. ITS INTERESTING THAT NO OTHER CANDIDATE IS FACED WITH SUCH INDIRECT PERSECUTION OF WHAT THEY BELIEVE AND HOLD IMPORTANT TO THEM. IF YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE, LEARN IT FOR YOURSELF AND CALL THE MISSIONARIES. IT'S THERE JOB TO PREACH THE GOSPEL AND HELP OTHERS UNDERSTAND THE MORMON BELIEFS AND PRACTICES. OR ATTEND A CHURCH MEETING YOURSELF. DON'T BE IGNORANT AND THINK THAT THIS CANDIDATE SHOULD HAVE TO EXPLAIN HIS RELIGION TO SO MANY PEOPLE THAT REALLY DON'T CARE ANYWAYS. IN MY OPINION, YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN THE MOBS OF ANGRY PEOPLE THAT CONSTANTLY TORTURED AND PERSECUTED THE MORMONS SO MANY YEARS AGO. I WOULD THINK THAT YOU'D BE MORE EDUCATED AND NOT SUCH AN IGNORAMOUS ABOUT THINGS.

    • Posted By: halftime @ 12/07/2007 3:09:54 PM

      I wonder if you would be interesested in hearing what he had to say if he were a practising Muslim. Anyways anyone silly enough to be religious has already displayed an inability to rationally apply any form of true critical thought, therefore he is not someone who should be in any position of power. You can intelligently call me a moron, or is that mormon, now.

      • Posted By: ljpitcher @ 12/07/2007 6:56:01 PM

        Bigoted comments like this were bound to start surfacing as religious doctrines become more acceptable in public discourse. This is why we should stick to discussing the values and morals that people of faith bring to public office rather than the different doctrines of various faiths.

    • Posted By: LuckyLuke @ 12/07/2007 5:36:36 PM

      Thisisme. Now hold on there. I am a mormon and let's not get that whole persecution complex going. The early mormons were doing some pretty shady stuff too. Alot of this might come out in the campaign. I fear for the church because there is plenty of dirty laundry there too. Also, assuming you are a mormon, you would know darn well that the church ABSOLUTLY WILL put tremendous pressure on him. That is the way we work. Lets be honest about it.

      • Posted By: ljpitcher @ 12/07/2007 6:49:47 PM

        If you really are a Mormon then you need to do a little more research before you espouse that church leaders "ABSOLUTLY WILL put ... pressure on (Mitt Romney)". This is just ridiculous. Show me one legitimate example of a leader of the Mormon Church telling a candidate what to do in office. You can't, because it hasn't happened. The church has taken public stands on issues such as gambling, same sex marriage and abortion as examples but that is a far cry from enforcing those views on others. Never have they gone directly to a public official and commanded them to make church doctrine public law. Think before you speak, please.

    • Posted By: halftime @ 12/07/2007 3:02:56 PM

      I wonder if you would want to know a little more about a candidates world view if he were a practising muslim. If someone is willing to believe in something as silly as Mormon then I am truly curious as to that persons ability to rationally think critically about anything!

      • Posted By: ridethenami @ 12/07/2007 6:19:26 PM

        Halftime, I feel sorry for people as closeminded as you... I don't consider you to be silly or a moron for being athiest, as I'm sure you have your reasons. However, your statements reflect the same bigotry and closemindedness of those people practicing religion you so redicule. I respect your faith, or lack thereof. You should respect others.

  • Posted By: vincevance @ 12/07/2007 5:38:39 PM

    What I saw and I believe what most true Americans in this country saw was a man with character, morals and strong Christian beliefs. Just what this country was founded on and what most Voters are looking for. Something that the liberal masses, the minority masses have forgotten. The majority of the US is sick and tired of anything and/or anybody goes. Get ready for a campaign based upon morals, and the enforsement of immigration laws. For the one that comes forth loudest about those two things will be the next president.

    • Posted By: Coloradoan @ 12/07/2007 6:00:11 PM

      I find it ironic that you would, in one breath, espouse your understanding of Christian faith and what, for you, passes as "morals"; and then in the very next phrase call for an "enforsement" (sic) of immigration laws. Anyone with a cursory understanding of the Bible knows that Jesus, although trained as a carpenter, would not erect a fence to keep non-citizens out of his country. How do you justify these obviously incongruent positions?

  • Posted By: vincevance @ 12/07/2007 5:59:43 PM

    I rest my case. 14 maybe. Woodward, I would not base any polls from this site or these posts. From what I read most of your posts are from idiotic pubescents.

  • Posted By: Granda @ 12/07/2007 5:55:46 PM

    Comment: Vince. Who the hell do you think you are? You areTRULY a fascist.
    I have every right to express my opinion. DO you belong to a nazi party. Get a life you pathetic creature. what the hell does my age have to do with it? It happens to be 45, I weigh 185, 5ft 11, PHD (D.B.A).

    Ok, put your teeth back in now. ignorant facist.

  • Posted By: Granda @ 12/07/2007 5:54:37 PM

    Vince. Who the hell do you think you are? You areTRULY a fascist.
    I have every right to express my opinion. DO you belong to a nazi party. Get a life you pathetic creature. what the hell does my age have to do with it? It happens to be 45, I weigh 185, 5ft 11, PHD (D.B.A).

    Ok, put your teeth back in now. ignorant facist.

  • Posted By: Granda @ 12/07/2007 5:44:20 PM

    What's moral about forciing one brand of faith over another? Utterly ridiculous.

    • Posted By: vincevance @ 12/07/2007 5:50:15 PM

      Granda, how old are you? No further comments please!!!!!!!

  • Posted By: Granda @ 12/07/2007 5:49:55 PM

    You are an extremist vince, by far not the majority. Get a life. Most Americans are not judgemental and believe in the "thou shalt not judge" doctrine, except of course, extremists like yourself who think that you ARE in fact God and therefore may judge others (look at your language.. accusing over 50% this country as somehow being less than you). You are just another supremacist. Ok go ahead, froth at the mouth now you ignorant stupid little man. How dare you believe you are a better Christian than any of us? You judge, therefore you will be judge. I hope you enjoy the heat down there.

  • Posted By: Granda @ 12/07/2007 5:29:22 PM

    What's wrong with a president representing the people, regardless of which church they belong to. Why does the president now have to be ratified by extremists? Why must I have a president who believes his faith trumps mine? This is SICK.

  • Posted By: Tom D. @ 12/07/2007 5:27:05 PM

    Whoever wrot this? Is he ignorant, stupid, predjudice? OR all of the above!!!

  • Posted By: Granda @ 12/07/2007 5:26:27 PM

    As a conservative, I am so sick of this "who is the most extremist" race by the republicans, that I will not be voting for them again until these extremist NUTS are out of the leadership. I hate the dems, but will vote for them this time around until these rediculous people who want to impose a religious fascist state on us are no longer being pushed.

  • Posted By: seigrella @ 12/07/2007 5:23:42 PM


    Every single citizen of this countryhas the right to find out what the Presidential candidates stand for so they may vote according to their principles, whatever those principles may be: religious, political, economic or otherwise. That is what our Country was founded on: the right to decide for ourselves based o our own belies, and not having to accept whatever the higher ups think is best for us. Therefore, WE THE PEOPLE ahve a right to question our candidates about their moral and religious beliefs if the is what is important to us. It may be economical an political beliefs to someone else, but what ever iot is, it is within our rights. Remember, this si neither a Monarchy nor a totalitarian nation where decrees are handed down and we have no voice. It is a GOVERMENT BY THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE, SO .HELP ME GOD!

  • Posted By: shortjames @ 12/07/2007 4:47:23 PM

    Mitt Romney reminds me of a used car salesman. He will do, say, be anything that he thinks will get him elected. After his speech I saw some clips of the old JFK speech he gave about his Catholicism. In that speech he promised to maintain the separation of church and state which is one of the fundamental underpinnings of our democracy. Mitt did no such thing, instead he pandered to the religious extremists.

    • Posted By: ljpitcher @ 12/07/2007 5:19:41 PM

      You obviously did not listen to the speech as Romney made similar statement almost verbatim and more.

  • Posted By: ljpitcher @ 12/07/2007 5:17:50 PM

    I find it immensely satisfying to see that so many people see your article as the absurdity that it is. That fact that you cannot see how this speech effectively alleviates evangelical concerns proves only that you are hopelessly ignorant, willfully ignorant, or biased so much that you cannot acknowledge clear success even when it is blatant. The only thing you have proven is how desperately liberals in the media are trying to manipulate conservatives to satisfy their own agenda. This article is so unabashedly biased that it hurts.

  • Posted By: shortjames @ 12/07/2007 4:58:31 PM

    Im curious about the evangelical reaction. Does he hate enough for you? Thats the real Republican litmus test.

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