A New American Holy War

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  • Posted By: footesmail @ 12/13/2007 2:26:54 PM

    Do you think that Christians try to "Take back America for Christ" because it is fun? We are constantly ridiculed by a liberal press and an agnostic world. The reason we hope to "win" people for Christ is because we care about them. We honestly believe that Christ is the one and only way to receive eternal life. We would be remiss to not tell others about Him and let them spend an eternity in hell.-Terry Foote

    • Posted By: APentecostal @ 12/13/2007 2:35:27 PM

      In complete agreement! When we (evangelicals) pray, we pray out of love, when we talk of the saving power of the blood of Christ, we do it because we love our fellow man and do not want to see him spend eternity in hell. As I read the comments that belittle God and our Savior Jesus Christ, it breaks my heart.....Jesus will always wait on you, ready to embrace his lost sheep....just do not let it be too late.

      • Posted By: angelus1967 @ 12/14/2007 11:34:33 AM

        What breaks my heart is the need of christians to try to convert me to using the crutch of christianity also. Shankardada2 has written a post that is much more succinct in explaining where we agnostics/athiests are coming from than all of my posts combined. Give that a read.....

    • Posted By: angelus1967 @ 12/14/2007 11:17:40 AM

      Please, please, please lezve me alone and let me spend eternity in "hell"! If it is your belief that I will end up there that is fine but I do not believe in hell. I do not want you to pray for me, prostelytize to me, or anything else that you feel you must do to save me. Yoou can have your myths and religions if it makes you feel better just leave me out of it!

  • Posted By: Seeker @ 12/13/2007 11:30:46 AM

    Who gets to decide what Christians believe or don't believe? Is there a list written down somewhere? Where did the list come from? How is the list vetted or authorized? Who, then, judges religious groups as "acceptable" or "not acceptable," based on the criteria in the list?

    Modern Christianity is not monolithic. The American evangelicals have been making the most noise about this Christian vs. non-Christian question. We haven't heard a public peep from a Catholic or Orthodox authority figure. How many Christian denominations could pass the test of "Christianity"?

    Modern Christianity has also evolved over the centuries. The church set up by the Roman emperor Constantine was much different from the Jesus cult that was causing trouble in Judaea 300 years earlier. How would Constantine's church measure up to the Christianity list? How would the Jesus cult measure up?

  • Posted By: CoreTheology @ 12/13/2007 11:23:12 PM

    A candidate???s faith may not matter to some, but if issues of faith are going to be discussed in the news, it is worthwhile to make some clarifying distinctions.

    Mormonism is a cult, if you define cult as "Any religious group that deviates from orthodox teachings of historic Christianity, while claiming to be "true Christians" by way of some special revelation or privilege". There are many cults out there, Mormonism being one.

    Christians and Mormons worship two DIFFERENT Gods.

    Here are a few differences between what Christians and Mormons believe:
    1Mormon ??? God was once a man like us.
    1Christian ??? God was, is, and always will be God.

    2Mormon ??? Many Gods, an unknown number of them
    2Christian ??? One God. Isaiah 44 ???I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God???Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any.???

    3Mormon ??? Salvation by grace AND works 2 Nephi 25:23
    3Christian ??? Salvation by faith alone. Many verses, one example Ephesians 2:8-9

    4Mormon ??? Men become Gods, have a marriage and children in Heaven
    4Christian ??? ???Men become Gods??? is blasphemy. Jesus said we will be neither married nor given in marriage in Heaven. Matthew 22:29-30

    Mormons and Christians worship a different Jesus as well:

    The Jesus of the Bible: Co-Eternal with God, without beginning or end.

    The Jesus of Mormonism: Created by a God, who was himself also created. At one time this Jesus was not, then, having been created by God, became. This Jesus is thus less than God.

    Each religion has a different Jesus, and a different God. One is Christian while the other is clearly not.

    • Posted By: APentecostal @ 12/14/2007 7:56:09 AM

      Thank you for clarifying......Mormons are NOT Christians, they should not be considered so.

      • Posted By: mhgoldy @ 12/14/2007 11:22:26 AM

        Thanks for examplifying the reality of Religious Bigotry!

      • Posted By: mhgoldy @ 12/14/2007 11:19:39 AM

        Great example of relgious bigotry! Thank you for clarifying and examplifying what the whole article is about. Before you criticize a Christian Mormon, maybe you should look and see how youa re acting

  • Posted By: eXcommunicated @ 12/09/2007 11:23:14 AM

    Why has no journalist reported on the fact that both Huckabee and Romney view non-believers as UNAMERICAN? Both of these candidates write off 30+ million patriotic Americans because they don't share the candidate's religious beliefs. Both of these men are laughable candidates for the highest office in the land. Both misrepresent The Constitution, the Founders, and the secular foundations of our society to pander to the conservative base. Neither men are fit to be president.

    • Posted By: CLRose1 @ 12/14/2007 11:21:39 AM

      Romney does not view non-believers as Un-American. You are sadly mistaken.

    • Posted By: Northlite @ 12/09/2007 11:40:02 AM

      I think its terrible the way the press questions Mitt's sincerity. It reminds me of their questioning of General Petraus. Its treasonous! When Mitt is president all journalists and posters on sites like this will be first required to affirm that Jesus is their Savior. Any who respond inappropriately will be dealt with appropriately. We are a Christian Nation! Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

      • Posted By: neilist @ 12/10/2007 8:28:04 AM

        Iguess we wont count on you to empathize with all the destruction our fearless leaders moral certainty has wrought on the innocent nation of Iraq. Our nations actions have killed many more than Sadaam,our son-of-a-***, ever did. Your religion is a sickness and a blight on the nation. Read The war Prayer by Mark Twain . I am sure you will be incapable of understanding and that is the problem with faith.

        • Posted By: neilist @ 12/10/2007 9:50:36 AM

          soory northlite. a second reading was needed to grasp the irony. but the comment stands as a blanket answer as to the danger of "faith"

  • Posted By: APentecostal @ 12/09/2007 11:10:27 PM

    Religion, just as moral character, is of significant concern for voters in the election. With this is mind, it must be understood that Mormons are not Christians, and Evangelicals do not celebrate Christ in the same sense that Evangelicals do. This must be recognized. No, we are not a theocratic society, but our constitution is based on the ideals and laws that the Almighty laid down. ..........just like everyone is saying happy holidays right now, but it is the music celbrating the birth of our Christ in the background of everystore or eatery. You cannot escape the Truth and the light.

    • Posted By: S. Tsow @ 12/10/2007 12:32:15 AM

      Proofread what you write, guy! "Evangelicals do not celebrate Christ in the same sense that Evangelicals do"?? If you don't pay attention to what you've written, how can you expect us to?

      • Posted By: APentecostal @ 12/10/2007 9:28:50 AM

        You are right, it was late and I didn't proof read. I should have written that Evangelicals and Mormons do not celebrate Christ the same way. Thank you for pointing that out.

        • Posted By: CLRose1 @ 12/14/2007 11:16:27 AM

          So tell me how Mormons celebrate Christ in a different way from Evangelicals.

        • Posted By: CLRose1 @ 12/14/2007 11:08:44 AM

          Tell me how Mormons celebrate Christ differently than evangelicals.

        • Posted By: capnmoroni @ 12/10/2007 1:01:21 PM

          Just to clarify, what is your definition of Christian?

          The only way to conclude that Mormons are not Christians is to define Christianity in such a way as to exclude Mormons, such as by saying that one is only Christian if he or she believes in certain creeds. In my experience, most Christians that exclude Mormons from their definition of Christianity do so because of differences in their understanding of the nature of God. Relying solely on the Bible, I have found no reason to conclude that the traditional Christian understanding is more correct than the Mormon understanding.

          • Posted By: APentecostal @ 12/10/2007 1:13:15 PM

            You need to do further investigating then. Evangelicals believe in a Heavenly Father, Mormons believe in a heavenly father and mother, life after death is perceived differently, Mormons believe they can become God's after death, Mormons believe that God once was a man and then became God which is something that Evangelicals DO NOT believe......the list goes on.

    • Posted By: S. Tsow @ 12/10/2007 12:35:24 AM

      Proofread what you write before sending it off to annoy the rest of us, guy! "Evangelicals do not celebrate Christ in the same sense that Evangelicals do"? What are you trying to say?

  • Posted By: Shankardada2 @ 12/13/2007 1:58:05 PM

    Kudos to angelus1967 and shaftels2do. I agree wholeheartedly with your posts. Someday we will look back on Christian mythology of today and laugh to ourselves, just as we laugh at the superstitions of the ancestors of Christians, who worshipped Thor (Vikings), Zeus (Romans), or the elemental forces of nature (tribes of modern England).

    • Posted By: angelus1967 @ 12/14/2007 11:13:52 AM

      Thank you Shankardada2; I have been making this argument for a long time and it seems the christian fundies just get more and mroe entrenched into the American way of life. SOmeday I hope the world will see the folly of religion. Until then I will keep battling for the truth.

  • Posted By: eddiewhere @ 12/13/2007 2:55:05 AM

    Once again my opponents have buckled. You now know only a few fraternities run all the political machinery in this country. The connection between BUSH and ROMNEY is ESRA TAFT BENSON. He speaks for all mormons they cannot criticize him. The Mormon president Ezra Taft Benson (considered a prophet by Mormons) was a fan of the John Birch Society.
    The Taft is Heusen???s name is because Ezra Taft Benson is a descendent of Alphonso Taft, who along with one of the Russell family started the Order of the Skull and Bones Society. ROMNEY WILL FOLLOW THE BENSON DOCTRINE. RAY FINN I see you went to anger management and have spent all day researching the Taft Family and the rest of the families that control what you vote for. The Mormon president Ezra Taft Benson (considered a prophet by Mormons) was a fan of the John Birch Society.
    The Taft is Heusen???s name is because Ezra Taft Benson is a descendent of Alphonso Taft, who along with one of the Russell family started the Order of the Skull and Bones (legally it has been known as Russell Trust). WHile you sleep I am at work protecting you. Mormons are fundamentalist. Look at what BENSON stands for. ROmney thinks he can do what BUSH did. We are seeing through ROMNEY AND GUILLIANI THIS IS WHY HUCKABEE is leading. GUILLIANI IS NOT A CONSERVATIVE AND BASIS HIS WHOLE CANDIDACY ON A DREAM THAT HE CAN BEAT CLINTON. IF OBAMA IS THE CANDIDATE WHAT GOOD IS HIS ARGUMENT.

    • Posted By: angelus1967 @ 12/14/2007 11:08:44 AM

      Jeez eddiewhere, your opponents haven't buckled, they have gotten tired of trying to understand your drivel and your weird conspiracy theory. I have seen your posts on several boards and do not understand a one of them. Then when I ask you a question you get upset and tell me that I am fixating on the wrong thing. Give it UP! None of us are buying into this!!

    • Posted By: hoopes_az @ 12/13/2007 1:23:39 PM

      Amazing investigative work. You've drawn sound, well thought out conclusions backed up by rock solid facts.

      I'm just kidding. You've posted the exact same text probably 20 times on various different lists over the last few days, and I STILL can't make sense out of a thing you are saying. Go ahead, vote for Obama. We wish you luck in the future. Please quit posting the exact same text. If nothing else, come up with a new way to phrase your argument. You're just spamming everyone with drivel and this point.

  • Posted By: habjdb @ 12/12/2007 11:54:41 PM

    How do you then explain the current social and cultural persecution of Christians in this country now, as we creep further toward a secular (no God allowed or mentioned in the public square) society? Our kids cannot pray in school, we cannot pray at work, or sports events, can't call a Christmas tree what it is (if secularists want their own holiday let them go create one and leave Christmas alone), can't speak to others about Christ because they may be offended, and just recently people died in a parking lot because some guy decided he hated Christians...but I bet you a billion dollars this would'nt have been included in that hate crimes legislation the democrats are trying to pass to further silence Christian beliefs. Wake up people and open your eyes.

    • Posted By: angelus1967 @ 12/14/2007 10:58:07 AM

      Your kids are welcome to pray in school, the school just cannot lead the prayer. You are welcome to pray at work, there is no government restriction on that at all. You are welcome to pray at sporting events, most team owners are just not stupid enough to lead a prayer in fear of alienating some of their audience. You are welcome to call a Christmas tree a Christmas tree, a governmental organization just cannot sponser a Christmas tree. Do not speak to me about Christ or any other religion, not because I will be offended but becasue you find it necessary to try to convert me. We can DISCUSS religion all day, just don't preach to me, that is what i find offensive.
      For some reason I do not see that christians are being so terribly persecuted in this country. If you want to hear of persecution talk to a muslim, mormon, or jew. Or for that matter any other religion besides christian. Try asking an agnostic / athiest about persecution and I am sure we'll curl your hair. You people are the worlds worst about persecuting others so I have trouble dredgign up any sympathy for you and your religion.

  • Posted By: shaftels2do @ 12/11/2007 1:09:22 PM

    APentecostal:
    Read "Please Don't Wish Me a Merry Christmas" by Stephen M. Feldman. It will help you.

    I am not a Christian. I don't want to be a Christian. That doesn't mean I'm angry. Nor am I anti-Christian. Live and let live.

    • Posted By: angelus1967 @ 12/11/2007 3:58:56 PM

      That is a great article.

      I feel the same way. Apentacostal tells me that I have mentioned god more than anyone and that may be true. I find it offensive when these people tell me that they are going to pray for me to save me from myself (I suppose) and open my heart to the truth. I feel I already see the truth and don't need their truths in order to "save" me.

      Thank you for your point of view.

      • Posted By: hoopes_az @ 12/12/2007 3:29:05 PM

        My guess is that most of the folks saying that they will "pray for you", will not really pray for you. They'll forget you even exist as soon as the move on to the next article. "I will pray for you" used in the context of a b-board like this is just a way to be condescending...to put you down while looking as though they are taking the high road. If someone truly is concerned enough about you to pray for you, well, they're just going to do it and most likely aren't going to proclaim to you that they are going to do it. My 2 cents, even though I generally disagree with the comments you have posted.

        • Posted By: angelus1967 @ 12/14/2007 10:48:51 AM

          hoopes_az - I agree with your assesment, most of them wil not pray for me. i just find it offensive that they feel I must need "saving" or some such thing. I do not at all need to be saved, prayed for, have my heart opened, etc....
          I do not and will not believe. This does not make me a bad person, just a person who's beliefs are different than yours.

    • Posted By: GreatDane @ 12/13/2007 11:05:43 PM

      Merry Christmas! (sorry--the article title you mentioned just has that effect on me--same as a sign that says "Don't Touch--Wet Paint")....so have a Merry Christmas and a HNY!

  • Posted By: simivalley @ 12/14/2007 12:07:11 AM

    .... just wanted to say that this whole "religious" arguing ( when choosing a candidate for a president/leader of the country ) is pathetic in 21st century.

  • Posted By: CoreTheology @ 12/13/2007 11:13:39 PM

    Mormonism is a cult, if you define cult as "Any religious group that deviates from orthodox teachings of historic Christianity, while claiming to be "true Christians" by way of some special revelation or privilege". There are lots of cults out there, Mormonism being one.

    Christians and Mormons worship two DIFFERENT Gods.

    Here are a few differences between what Christians and Mormons believe:
    1Mormon ??? God was once a man like us.
    1Christian ??? God was, is, and always will be God.

    2Mormon ??? Many Gods, an unknown number of them
    2Christian ??? One God. Isaiah 44 ???I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God???Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any.???

    3Mormon ??? Salvation by grace AND works 2 Nephi 25:23
    3Christian ??? Salvation by faith alone. Many verses, one example Ephesians 2:8-9

    4Mormon ??? Men become Gods, have a marriage and children in Heaven
    4Christian ??? ???Men become Gods??? is blasphemy. Jesus said we will be neither married nor given in marriage in Heaven. Matthew 22:29-30

    Mormons and Christians worship a different Jesus as well:

    The Jesus of the Bible: Co-Eternal with God, without beginning or end.

    The Jesus of Mormonism: Created by a God, who was himself also created. At one time this Jesus was not, then, having been created by God, became. This Jesus is thus less than God.

    Each religion has a different Jesus, and a different God. One is Christian, one is clearly not.

  • Posted By: Shankardada2 @ 12/13/2007 9:04:14 PM

    But, I understand that you will never open your eyes. I am thinking back to my Baptist youth now. Your priests tell you that the Devil will tempt you away from "Christ" in many eloquent and subtle ways. So, as far as you are concerned, I could simply be his mouthpeice! The perfect delusion, I must say. No wonder the Church was able to keep the masses convinced that Sun orbitted the Earth and that the Earth is 6000 years old inspite of the incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. The scientific and historical facts are the work of the Devil! Don't believe them, they say. LOL...

    • Posted By: tumordoctor @ 12/13/2007 9:28:15 PM

      Where does the Bible say that the earth is 6,000 years old? Or that the Sun orbits the Earth (the ol' foundation--of- the- earth argument)? You're making the usual desperate statements.

      • Posted By: Shankardada2 @ 12/13/2007 11:00:24 PM

        I'm not making those statements (that the Earth is 6,000 years old or that the Sun orbits the Earth). Your own Church held that position. In fact your Pope ordered the torture of Gallileo for contradicting those beliefs. This is the same Church that created the Bible that all of you Protestants use. In fact it is the desperate Christians who attempt to reinterpret their Bible whenever it suits them in order to keep it half believable. If you are a physician (tumordoctor) as your name implies, then as a man of science and of "faith" you surely must have done some desperate reinterpretations of the Bible's quite literal texts in order to make it relevant to our world. You must see practically the ENTIRE Bible as an allegory. Why not just give up the charade alltogether?

  • Posted By: Brian Pearson @ 12/13/2007 10:11:36 PM

    I???m an atheist but, like Mike Huckabee, I don???t hold a man???s religious beliefs against him. I believe he wants to be everyone???s president. I see a man called Huckabee, saying what he thinks and meaning what he says. I see a guy who has his feet solidly on the ground. He isn???t slinging mud, and he isn???t ???side-slipping??? questions as many other candidates are doing.
    He recognizes two areas of concern which I completely agree with: The economy and our dependence on oil. For the former, he is fully on board the FairTax idea ??? the best idea to come along in a hundred years. It will do a lot to grow our economy and keep companies at home. And, he has vowed to get rid of our dependence on oil within ten years. To me, those are national security issues.
    I???ll applaud the day Michael Dale Huckabee is sworn in as President of the United States of America

  • Posted By: Shankardada2 @ 12/13/2007 8:40:50 PM

    I was raised as a Baptist, in Alabama. So the "Holy Spirit," as you call him, HAS come knocking at my door. I lived in constant fear of your "hell." Until I realized that the "fiery hell" that your preachers used to brainwash the masses was invented by men who wrote after the time of the Bible, such as Dante. Any serious research into the topic will show that the precious Bible was written by men and assembled by men at the behest of Roman Emporers, hardly Saints. A careful analysis of geographical innacuracies will show that the authors of the New Testament could not possibly have witnessed the events they describe (or they just have REALLY bad memories). At the time of the compilation of the Bible, the doctrine of "ressurection" was still in dispute, as were many of Christ's miracles. So even your most cherished beliefs were not shared by all of the founders of Christianity. How can one have any faith when serious research is done into the matter? Best to keep your eyes shut my friend, for if you dared to see the Truth, you would lose your identity, and be forced into the real world.

  • Posted By: eddiewhere @ 12/13/2007 7:55:33 PM

    Do you know that 80% of the world's capital is owned by 12 families. They already run the world the organizations like the Paris Club; who inturn fund the IMF and World Bank. Look at the power oil companies have on the world. You are confusing conspiracy with reality. You have to prove what you say if not it means nothing. But thank you for your commentary EUB. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft_family-If you go to this website or url, you will notice the development of the Taft family one of the most poweful families in America. Along with a few other families, they were able to establish a number of fraternities which contorl both parties political machinery.

  • Posted By: eddiewhere @ 12/13/2007 7:53:23 PM

    Do you know that 80% of the world's capital is owned by 12 families. They already run the world the organizations like the Paris Club; who inturn fund the IMF and World Bank. Look at the power oil companies have on the world. You are confusing conspiracy with reality. You have to prove what you say if not it means nothing. But thank you for your commentary EUB. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft_family-If you go to this website or url, you will notice the development of the Taft family one of the most poweful families in America. Along with a few other families, they were able to establish a number of fraternities which contorl both parties political machinery.

  • Posted By: BuckeyeHybrid @ 12/13/2007 7:38:22 PM

    Lets just look at the situation factually.
    1. We want a president who believes in something (exactly what depends on what turn you want our country to take).
    2. We want to see a president that follows the convictions he has based on the beliefs he has professed (If we see someone say one thing but do something completly opposite, do we really think he has the courage to follow his belief?).
    3. Mike Huckabee professes to believe in christianity (If your against christianity or you would like to see someone with no/or different faith enter office thats fine and your entitled to your choice, but since part of christian faith is the call to share the good news of Christ with others, do not be offended by the proclimation that Huckabee made about spreading the message, for he is simply actually acting upon a believe he professed.)
    All I'm saying is do not be taken aback by a man following his convictions on a belief he has been public about, rather simply disagree with him, and vote for someone else! Isn't that truely the greatness of our Republic? -Taylor Knapp, Ohio.

  • Posted By: newsweekreader1 @ 12/13/2007 4:54:55 PM

    As an American, I would hope we vote for a candidate who is a good person looking out for the good of our country. Sadly, it appears from the comments below, and the bias in the news, that nobody is interested. - John Forbes, Indiana.

  • Posted By: Shankardada2 @ 12/13/2007 3:52:09 PM

    Actually the term "take back America for Christ" is not accurate. It should be called "take America for Christ." Because nowhere in my readings of the Constitution did I see any mention of Christ. Could this have been on purpose??? Of course! If anyone has a "right" to "take back America" from anyone, it's the Native Americans, from Protestants. But - too bad, the Protestants killed them all. Open your eyes my friends, and stop sapping up what your priests tell you. Do your own research into the history of your religion, and into the verifiability of the events mentioned in the Bible. Do not let your predjuces blind you to the truth. We can create a fair and just society here on Earth for all mankind - without 1700 year-old texts full of innacuracies.

  • Posted By: cawelch1958 @ 12/11/2007 1:54:46 PM

    You know, I have read this article twice. I must applaud Jon Meacham. Well done. Your personal commentary and undo influence underlining the verbiage from Mitt Romney's evasive maneuvers about his religion and belief left me to even wonder what our influence and responsibility should be to each other when it comes down to information? Should the information we share be given to persuade or to inform? Should our "personal convictions" be our guide or our cross? Interesting! The one issue I must comment on is this: It was stated in your article that Mitt Romney "would have been on safer ground??? had he stated or defended ???American???s religious traditions as largely free and that America's religious traditions should fight for the freedom of all, if only out of self-interest". What I gathered from that statement is our internal moral compass should guide what we fight for. The truth is, our ethical code is what guides us. It is the foundation we use to choose our faith, our behaviors and most of all our choices in whom we support, politically and spiritually. Even though, Romney did not make his ethical code more defined or expressed, I hope that his actions as a leader will. Remember, he does have a record we can view and scrutinize.
    Signed,
    A person who wants to be known as A Latter Day Saint

    • Posted By: Shankardada2 @ 12/13/2007 2:06:07 PM

      George W. Bush's religiousness has nothing to do with his misshandling of Iraq, if that is what you are implying. That was a purely secular blunder. It had little to do with his religion. He made no mention of Jesus when going to war, and made no claim that his authority to wage that war came from the Holy Spirit. Areas in which GW's religious convictions have affected his policy include in the areas of stem cell research, in federal regulations regarding abortion funding, and in federal funds for religious charities. These are all annoying policies. Though I voted for Bush, his policies in these areas would make me think twice about voting for a fundamentalist priest in the next election, even though a Billary White House may mean more taxes and spending...

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