Fire Away

From Blackstarvenom, "Marine Combat Training and Boot Camp all quickly came back to me" and "We were trained to positively identify an immenent threat before eleminating that threat, meaning unless you are providing cover fire or such, you weren't firing unless you had something to fire at"

Mr Venom, If you can sit there and honestly tell the world that you have , as a BAND member closed with and engaged the enemy, then I take all this back and you can go on about your use of (EOF) escalation of force procedures. Don't write like you've been in the @*it because Ive' been in long enogh to know what a BAND members roll is and what your wartime mission is. You can leave the @*it talkin to those who actually do the trigger pulling, making the hard descisions and laying it on the line when all hell breaks loose. You sir are a FOBit

Army Infantry Lieutenant---Afghanistan

Just look at the history of the M16. They no longer make fully automatic ones for the military, because during the Vietnam War, a lot guys would fire off all their ammo at targets they couldn't even see. I read somewhere that the average number of rounds expended per kill for riflemen in Vietnam was around 13,000. I see blackstravenom's point, but today in Iraq we have to be a lot more conscious of civilians in the area. It's not like past wars we have fought, where we would just level a whole city with artillery and air power. From all the veterans I have met from World War 2, Korea, and Vietnam, I have a hard time believing Marshal's statement.

I did one deployed tour in Ramadi, Iraq, with the I Marine Division Band in 2004. Before I got there, I had not actaully trained with the unit I was deployed with due to the fact that I had just reached theater when they were already there for a couple of months or so. Once in cnountry, the training I received from the other unit I was stationed with, and the training I had received while in Marine Combat Training and Boot Camp all quickly came back to me, as well as being brought up to speed by my current unit. We were trained to positively identify an immenent threat before eleminating that threat, meaning unless you are providing cover fire or such, you weren't firing unless you had something to fire at. The training we received stems from the legacy of training given to Marines during WWII. Marines were disciplined then, are now, and will be as long there is a Mainre Corps. I believe there is some truth about how men fired during WWII battles. However, common sense would reveal that a single scared man might fire randomly. Marines are trained men, not barbaric savages.

SLA Marshal or Slam Marshal is full of distortions, lies aand dreams of grandiose, if he knew what he was talking about he would have been on the battle field, not having hibals in the Officers Mess or club.

Colonel Charles-Jean-Jacques-Joseph Ardant du Picq wrote a book called Battle Studies in 1865, about how men react in battle, including firing rates in battle conditions. But his observations were based on formation shooting, a tactics used during that historical period. He relates a story from June 1, 1776, where rear rank soldiers shot the hands and forearms of front rank soldiers, which of course reduced the total number of soldiers firing in battle. S.L.A. Marshall may have read that book and incorrectly superimposed du Picq's ideas over the modern fighting tactics of WWII.

If you want to know what the Army is currently thinking about the issue read Dr David Grossman US Army LTC retired. Here is a quote from one of his lectures: "From the military perspective, a 15 percent firing rate among riflemen (SLAMs figure) is like a 15 percent literacy rate among librarians. And fix it the military
did. By the Korean War, around 55 percent of the soldiers were willing to fire to kill. And
by Vietnam, the rate rose to over 90 percent." His gist is not getting soldiers to overcome their innate refusal to shoot at their fellow man, it is (1) seperating out the sociopaths who enjoy it, which the Army did with Timothy Mcveigh, and (2) getting them to aim when they pull the trigger. We went from 250K rounds down range in Vietnam (when 90% were pulling the trigger) for every enemy casualty in Vietnam to 25K in Desert Storm back up to 250K today in OIF. Not an easy issue, regardless how much mythologizing SLAM did.

Amazing how a liberal media rag like Newsweek that makes a living spewing fiction about the military on a daily basis is now the revealer of another "military myth". Just like in another article making the rounds about a young soldier who killed himself in Iraq titled "Failed by the Sysytem", Newsweek conveniently leaves out the rest of the story. Much has been written about soldiers not firing weapons in combat, from the losses at Kasserine to the Bulge to Chosin to Ia Drang, and whether its from fear, tactical advantage, or bad ammo - IT DOES HAPPEN. I personally saw it as a career soldier in Vietnam, Panama, Iraq, and Africa, and almost got killed several times in Viettnam because troops were too paralyized in the first few moments of contact to respond. Its one thing having an enemy in open ground and firing, its quite another to NOT know where they are at and be told to shoot, at night, and knowing the flash a muzzle blast makes. The ability to fire in close and/or heavy combat comes from discipline, training, and a lot of courage. When a military stresses t his, and the soldiers respond, we win, when it doesn't we............??????

DirSec, I'm no linguist, but I think you're getting caught up in semantics. "Marines assist with toy drive" should be interpreted as Marines assisting children WITH a toy drive, not Marines being assistants IN a toy drive.

DirSec, I'm no linguist, but I think you're getting caught up in semantics. "Marines assist with toy drive" should be interpreted as Marines assisting children WITH a toy drive, not Marines being assistants IN a toy drive.

To those that despise the liberal media: are you talking about the media that brought you this story?

To those that despise the liberal media: are you talking about the same media that brought this article?

To those that despise the liberal media: are you talking about the media that brought you this story?

The only fools who belived this were damn sure never in "THE NAM", or any other actual combat.

Just a clear example of the "anti-military" agenda within the US Media.

Like the Kent Reporter's article a few weeks ago;

"Marines assist with toy drive."

"ASSIST" ???

It's their toy drive!

It's pervasive throughout the media in this country.

Remember the story of the Navy SEAL who was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor a few weeks ago?

Oh yeah, none of the major media cared to make another member of the armed forces out to be some kind of hero.

Just a clear example of the "anti-military" agenda within the US Media.

Like the Kent Reporter's article a few weeks ago;

"Marines assist with toy drive."

"ASSIST" ???

It's their toy drive!

It's pervasive throughout the media in this country.

Remember the story of the Navy SEAL who was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor a few weeks ago?

Oh yeah, none of the major media cared to make another member of the armed forces out to be some kind of hero.

raato:
If you're looking for that kind of information go to the National Archives or the Library of Congress and do a little research. These are two excellent sources of information on the numbers and status of both Allied and Axis POW's. When you're talking about statistics like number of deaths it's best to do the research yourself as you strike me as an individual that has trust issues about historical works. However, some of your statistics are partially correct in that several million German POW's captured by the Red Army did not survive their captivity. This has been well documented by the United States, Germany, England, and by the Soviets themselves in their archives. Now these books you refer to should have source material that was used by the authors, I would also suggest researching their list of supporting documents as another method of tracking down your information. Oh, in case you're wondering, I'm a military historian and perform this kind of research on a regular basis. Hope it helps you out.