Two Leaders, on a Collision Course

When last I spoke to you in New York a few months ago, you were skeptical of whether Musharraf would go through with the deal with you.
I was more than right. Because all of a sudden he suspended the constitution. We thought we had a roadmap to democracy, and we found ourselves on a train journey to dictatorship. Thank God the lawyers, the media, the civil society, political parties, everyone in Pakistan went up in arms. Everyone came down like a ton of bricks. There was international support and internal pressure. I think Mr. Negroponte's visit to Pakistan was an important one. Mushaarraf gave a date for elections before he came. After he left, Musharraf gave a date to retire from the army chief, which to me was like a miracle. There were so many people who said he would never retire as army chief.

Will Musharraf restore the judiciary?
I doubt it.

What happens if the election is rigged?
It all depends on how much they can manipulate the numbers. If the judicial and police staff refuse to rig the elections for them, or if the observers can mitigate against the rigging, the ruling party is going to lose badly. They are not going be on the scene at all.

Do you think that a civilian democratic government like one you would lead will be able to get control of the military and then get control of the area now dominated by terrorists?
That all depends on the parliamentary outcome and who gets what majority. The military comes under the president at the moment, so it wouldn't be the job of the prime minister. It would be the job of the president, and that would depend on the level of cooperation the president was willing to extend in this regard. As far as the political efforts are concerned … The tribal areas are living in the medieval age. There's no police system, there's no court system, no appeal. They're at the mercy of the tribal chiefs, who are the heads of the clans. But they're basically living without any rights. We'd like them to give them a council for those who respect our constitution—with a budget to decide for themselves how to spend the money. We want to give them a stake in the area. We feel we need an alternative social structure, where people can participate in a peaceful manner in building their society.

What happened to your talks with Musharraf? How was your personal chemistry?
We got on well by talking. He's very easy to talk to—I was quite surprised, compared to my first [Army] chief of staff. He acknowledges what you are saying—he doesn't ignore what you say. Talking to him was easy, our negotiations were continuing, but the crux had not happened. The crux was fair elections.

He was supposed to lift the ban and allow you to become prime minister for a third time. Didn't he assure the Americans he would do that?
That the Americans can answer.

Weren't you assured by the Americans?
He told me during our negotiations in the UAE [United Arab Emirates] that he would lift it. Then he went back on [his promise] in August. After that, we had a confidential agreement on this, which I was allowed to share with my party. Then I returned [to Pakistan] and blamed some of the people in the government for [the bomb blast that almost killed her], and he didn't like it. I said I had a right to ask for an independent investigation, which I have not gotten.

When you came back did you fear assassination?
They [warned] me, but I thought they were trying to frighten me off. The militants had tried to kill me in the past, but I couldn't believe they would try it in front of all the cameras. Even now, think how bad it was. There were two bomb blasts 45 seconds apart. One of [the bombers] we suspect was using a human baby. He was right in front of my truck, holding a baby up and trying to pass a baby to me. We [didn't] take it, so he goes to one police mobile
[unit], which refuses to take the baby [too]. Then the truck suddenly explodes … everyone in that van died.

Why has Musharraf allowed the terrorists to grow so strong in this country?
He's got to answer this, because as far as I'm concerned some of the people around him have sympathy for the militants … You have to remember all of this traces itself back to [former military ruler] Zia ul-Haq. He put together a structure in Pakistan to aid, abet, support, sustain and nourish the mujahedin. Part of that structure he put in place was the ruling party. They are the core support for the militants. Those people hosted them, became friends with them—can they break all those bonds that are three decades old? [The militants] have reorganized. They could not do that unless there is some support from the government or intelligence [agencies].

So there is an entire system of support for the extremists?
Yes. I am shocked to see how embedded it is. I knew it was bad from afar. People are scared to talk. They say I am polarizing when I say militancy is a problem. A town calls for reinforcements but they are not sent in time. So the town falls. The terrorists invade and start cutting people's heads off and it terrorizes the population into submission. After the town falls and it is terrorized, they send the army in to clear out the militants. But the army can't be
kept there, and so they withdraw and the citizens have lost the will to resist.

Why can't the government send reinforcements? Why are they letting the towns fall?
The army is being targeted and losing men and is getting demoralized because the public is not with them. They say you are fighting America's war. But we are not fighting for American territory but for Pakistani territory. There is vicious propaganda in the press asking how can a Muslim kill a Muslim? We are turning it around, saying how can a Pakistani kill a fellow Pakistani?