Two Leaders, on a Collision Course

But these judges were hand-picked by you.
We took action. The judges had to take oaths [of loyalty], and those that took the oaths are there. Those that did not are gone. This action was validated by the Supreme Court of Pakistan … There was something seriously wrong with the chief justice of Pakistan. On March 9 there were charges against him of corruption; [he was accused of] interfering [with] the judgments of judges on other courts; he was accused of interfering in the executive by taking actions on issues from traffic control to privatization.

Do you feel you stuck your neck out for the United States after September 11 and the United States has not stood by you?
No, I don't. I stuck out my neck for Pakistan. I didn't stick out my neck for anyone else. It happened to be in the interest of the world and the U.S. … The problem with the West and your media is your obsession with democracy, civil liberties, human rights. You think your definition of all these things is [correct]. … Who has built democratic institutions in Pakistan? I have done it in the last eight years. We empowered the people and the women of Pakistan. We allowed freedom of expression.

Then why are you now clamping down on the media? You seem far more angry now than ever before.
I think you are right. [Laughs] Why don't you understand? Am I a madman? Have I suddenly changed? Am I a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde?

People make mistakes.
I don't make such mistakes. I take considered views. I don't sleep at night and suddenly dream of something and issue orders in the morning. I discuss, I debate issues, and then take decisions. … Here was the situation when I had to take action on Nov. 3 [when Musharraf declared the state of emergency]. The Western media was undermining what [we] are doing. Your media keeps criticizing the army and the ISI—not understanding what their real contribution is to fighting terrorism. If the media is doing something which is totally demoralizing the nation, [resulting in a] government which is almost nonfunctional, the economy taking a downturn, despair and despondency in the nation … terrorism rising in the settled districts, then …

Mr. President, terrorism is not rising because of the media. Terrorism is rising because the U.S. went into Afghanistan, bombed the Taliban, and they ran into your country.
No, let me give you the answer. You take this Red Mosque incident [in which pro-Taliban clerics at an Islamabad mosque instigated an armed standoff with the government last July]. We took action. What did the media do about it? They showed those who took action as villains and brought those madwomen who were there on television and made heroes of them. It should have been converted into a great positive. … Instead, it was as if we had done
something terrible.

Can Pakistan contain the threat from the extreme Islamists?
We are combatitng it, and I think we are on the winning side. The issue is in the FATA—that is, the Federally Administered Tribal Areas. There are two of them in north and south Waziristan and a third one in Bajaur …

Is that the area where you think Osama bin Laden is hiding?
No, these are settled districts. He could be in Bajaur—this is the tribal agency bordering Kunar province, where there were no coalition forces in the past. On the Afghan side—that's in Afghanistan.

So you can go from one side to the other?
That's a possibility.

Does your intelligence service know where Osama is?
Nobody knows.

Has President Bush been supportive?
The president has been extremely supportive. I have nothing against President Bush. I think he has been most supportive; he has been a very sincere friend. I must say he understands fully the Pakistan environment. He understands why I had to act and what I'm facing. He totally and completely understands.

Recently Deputy Secretary John Negroponte came to see you.
And he understands our environment and the problems I was having and the government was having and why we took this action.

You think he understands why you imposed the state of emergency?
Yes, he understands the emergency. He understands what we were suffering and that an action had to be taken.