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Arctic Meltdown

The ice cap is thinning at a scary rate. What can be done?

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  • Posted By: missrose2008 @ 01/03/2008 1:29:19 PM

    Although there is more than ample fingers to point the blame...All people need to be concern about one another and figure out together how to get to the next level...
    I know that only the people who believe in the brighter tomorrow get to see it. So are you going to point fingers or do something about it. For our children's sake please let's save the planet, our world, our mother earth, our gift to the future...Bless you all

  • Posted By: Chaotician @ 12/20/2007 3:14:51 PM

    The odds of any significant effort by any governments is dismlally small and if Observer101 is any idication, then America is likely to make things worse not better! For the record, America is still by far the greates absolute contributor to Global warming, envionmental degradtion, and a host of other global isses! On a per capita basis, it is doubtful that any nation can begin to approach our greedy destruction before the end! Clearly the Homo Saps species is a seriously flawed experiment by the evolutionary forces of Nature; it may take many millions of years to recover from the destruction this species will have caused to life on this planet before it sinks into sands of time!

    • Posted By: Starlady @ 12/22/2007 1:08:15 PM

      Global warming is created mainly by the HAARP radio frequencies. This was demonstrated by an inventor who showed how cetrain frequency applied to salt water created heat and therefore free energy. The downside is HAARP frequencies on the ocean cause ice meltdown...get it.

    • Posted By: dewcooper @ 12/21/2007 9:12:38 AM

      When you look at the distorted facts based on a PER CAPITA basis, I can see how you are blinded to the impact of China. They are buiding a new coal-fired plant ever 2 hours! As a country, they are the worst pollutors in the world.

      However, your stance on the human race is completly flawed. Did we cause any of the 4 'Ice Ages' or the subsequent heating periods? Did we cause the elimination of the dinasours (too many cavemen driving Tahoes I guess)? Name another species that has done more to promote conservation, planted more trees, created drought tolerate crops, or cured more diseases to save its own species. See any dolphins or monkeys building hospitals? Look at the release of CO2 from a volcanic erruption and get back to me if you want to discuss PER CAPITA pollutors.

      • Posted By: Froggie76 @ 12/22/2007 4:36:01 AM

        Yes US citizen are the biggest polluters, but they are not the worst as various initiatives and regulations help to move people to eco-friendly environment. Nonetheless, they are still a long shot from using the most environmentally-friendly practices that exists around the world.

        Not using per capita basis, would mean that any US citizen lives is 4 to 5 times more important and more deserving than any Chinese. This is precisely this narrow-minded ethnocentrism non-sense that give the US such a bad reputation around the world.
        And don't say you don't care what others think about your country, or you will just further the trend of alienating the remaining few that helps you prevent another 9/11 on US soil.

  • Posted By: observer101 @ 12/19/2007 11:42:42 AM

    For billions of years the earth has had warm ups and cool downs...Its a cycle thats supposed to happen...When we find wooley mammoths imbedded deep in the ice from another period just before the "BIG FREEZE" do you think it was mammothmade cars and factories that caused the earth to heat up and cool down? No!.. Its called volcanoes..which one major eruption could put out waaaay more pollutants than our lifetimes ever could in just hours...Ofcourse we put more pollution in the air, and contribute to ozone depletion (supposedly)..but the earth WILL regulate itself...No amount of fines, political ramblings and nobel peace prizes will stop it. The earth will refreeze, heat up , refreeze for billions of more years with or without our help.

    • Posted By: A Watchmaker @ 12/20/2007 7:07:41 AM

      In the winter do you do nothing and allow yourself to freeze because its a natural cycle? No you don't, you PAY MONEY to ensure that you remain in your comfort zone. Anyway, both sides of this argument have it wrong. It doesn't matter if its mans doing, a natural cycle or a cataclysmic event, all of these factors in the past may have contributed to some of the changes in earths climate. The difference is we are not mammoths or dinosaurs, we are not tied to our fate like they were and we can make a difference. We now have the technology to ensure that the world remains stable, a return to an ice age or to the environment that the dinosaurs existed in would be death to our species or at the very least our way of life. If we cant manage to stabilise the minor climate changes we are having now, then we can never hope to do it in the future. Sacrifices must be made, more research needs to be done, if cutting carbon emissions buys us a decade or two to get the technology we need in place, then its worth every lost dollar. Survival of the species should be our only imperative, anything else is irrelevant and a betrayal of the last billion years of evolution.

      • Posted By: dewcooper @ 12/21/2007 11:50:50 AM

        Trying to stabilize the climate is a foold erand. In 1970, scientists wanted to melt the polar ice cap because we were going to freeze. Today scientists want to dump iron in the water off of the coast of California to stem global warming. The reality is, we cannot stop the planet from doing what comes naturally - weather cycles. If we try and maintain a steady state, we will only make things worse (think cause and effect and the principle of elastiisity). We have not caused global warming, because there is NO global warming. The science is bad. The models are bad. To try and fix what isn't broken is REALLY bad.

        • Posted By: A Watchmaker @ 12/21/2007 12:28:13 PM

          I agree up to a point, unilateral action would be inefective at best, devistating at worst, but if we get another ice age as severe as the Cryogenian Ice Age were all DEAD, mabey some rat gut bactieria lying preserved in the ice, or some fern spores may survive, but we certainly would not. People are saying the same things about geo engineering now, that they said about automobiles back in the day, it will never catch on, you can walk faster than that, but the engineers and enthusiasts persisted, and now we have the Hemi engine, who'd of thunk. (I understand the irony of my comparison before anyone points it out)

          • Posted By: dewcooper @ 12/21/2007 12:54:26 PM

            Let's look at a current solution: Ethanol and Bio-diesel. The sudden push for 'greener' fuels has resulted in an increase in the deforestation of the Rainforest in order to grow more corn. The increase in corn crops in the US has created more nitrogen run-off into the gulf of Mexico, increasing the dead-zone\killing more fish. Our cars now get WORSE mileage, not better, by as much as 20%. All this because some hack from Tennesee made a mockumentary based on faulting 'science' and missinterpretted data. More and more scientists who participated in the UN fiasco come out every day AGAINST global warming.

            Global warming has nothing to do with the environment. As Jasque Cheraque said, it is the first step toward a global government. I don't remember ever electing him the US president

            • Posted By: Froggie76 @ 12/22/2007 4:42:43 AM

              Who is that Jasque Cheraque you are babbling about ? If you are thinking about the former French president, then spell it correctly at least: Jacques Chirac. And no he didn't believe in the UN as a world government body, but as a forum for world management.
              He was, and is still, very much a proponent of country sovereignty, rather than a world federalist.

            • Posted By: A Watchmaker @ 12/21/2007 2:11:35 PM

              Yes, exactly, poorly thought out unilateral actions!

              • Posted By: dewcooper @ 12/21/2007 2:44:01 PM

                Actually, ethenol and dio-diesel are being used all around the globe, so to claim this as a unilateral response is incorrect. Much of South America is almost entirely ethenol.

    • Posted By: dewcooper @ 12/19/2007 12:57:57 PM

      It is amazing how 'scientists' want us to believe that the earth should maintain a steady-state versus its very observable cyclical pattern. Maybe the debate shouldn't be over...

  • Posted By: Froggie76 @ 12/19/2007 7:37:01 PM

    To all skeptics, the issue is not whether climate change is happening. It is, period. The matter is how fast it is and whether human populations around the world are ready to cope with it. As Dr Robert Corell explains, the more climate changes, the faster extraordinary climate events are likely to happen. And as usual, the poorer and less developped a country is, the more unprepared it is to cope with such dramatic tragedies. If one Katrina every ten year is seen as an awful vision for the US, then just try to imagine how you will react if there were 2 or 3 EVERY year around the country.
    This is to alleviate such risks that climate change issues must be dealt forcefully with. And because there has been considerable input from human activities (industrial burning) from the past 200 years into hastening cyclical natural climate change, there is is even more moral obligations from industrialised developped countries to take the lead in mitigating these consequences.
    Finally, this why from any sensible reasonable people in the world, any more foot-dragging from skeptical chauvinistic american citizens, is just seen as what it is, moronic self-indulgence irresponsible blindness.

    Best regards,

    • Posted By: observer101 @ 12/20/2007 10:16:23 AM

      And ofcourse we know since America is the most "rich" nation in the world they have to do more to stop global warming? Bull....Its the Chinas, Russias, and other countries that DONT have a clean air act or water pollution act that should foot most of the costs. America has been doing its part in reducing emmissions, and coming up with more ideas for reusing waste. Either way the earth is going to do what its enviornment tells it to do. As for Katrina type disasters?....Its the peoples fault for building in those areas. You build too close to the coast thats what happens. Indonesia tsunamis? ...once again the peoples fault. If people want to build next to the worlds most beautiful oceans, then They should expect what costs comes with it...Hurricanes , floods...the works. And in the event the worst happens for them then THEY should cover there own financial messes not the U.S. The worlds oceans rise and falls. Its the cycle of the earth. and not the smartest scientists or all the money in the world is going to stop or reverse climate change. Understanding whats to come with climate change and PREPARING for it is the way to go....NOT finacially expecting a super power to PAY other nations to supposedly (fix) it.

      • Posted By: A Watchmaker @ 12/20/2007 12:47:23 PM

        Thats a prety grim assesment, if we cant fix climate change (warming or cooling) we are doomed, There isnt enough arable land on the planet for the population as is, if its further reduced by ocean rise or glaciation were going to end up with wars that make WWII look like a bar brawl. Current theory sugests that there can be no single cause for the massive climate changes in the past, solar output, the earths orbit, etc. are insufficent to cause an event by themselves, as such the earths climate cannot be graphed to a 'cycle' as you put it, there are other one off events that trigger them, and the human race increasing atmospheric CO2 to over 380ppm may just be enough. Oh and add a natural one off event to what were doing, and things could get a whole lot worse, quick.

        • Posted By: dewcooper @ 12/21/2007 9:04:02 AM

          What kind of SUVs did the dinasours drive? How much CO2 did they produce from Oil? Not rying to be a smart allick, but the reality is, charted over time, the changes today are no different. Katrina was more destructive, not because of the intensity of the storm, but because of the breaching of the levees (can't blaim that on global warming). Even on Gore's infamouse CO2 vs. Temp graph, it took 800 yrs for a 'significant' increase, and it was temp that increased CO2 levels and not the other way around. When you add to this the fact that the vast majority of the models the global alarmists are using to depict these clatistrphic events are just plain WRONG was put against actual measurments, it is very hard to take them seriously. Unless you want to start plugging up the exhausts of wildlife and valcanoes, CO2 is always going to be an issue that the earth will have to deal with.

          • Posted By: A Watchmaker @ 12/21/2007 12:04:45 PM

            Sorry Dewcooper, that old joke is getting rather tired, the creatures of the cretaceous period etc, did exactly the opposite,they died, and took all that carbon with them to below the earth, turned into oil, and now we are venting that carbon back into circulation. Animals, humans included don't produce CO2, all we do is change it from food to gas which plants then turn back to food, a balanced cycle for bns of years. My point is, we cant cut CO2 completely, thats impossible, nor can we prevent volcanoes releasing methane gases, but we can start making sweeping changes to the way we live, buy us some time to make sure we don't have another uncontrolled warming period. Ideas may include sequestering the CO2 were producing back into the ground, where we can keep it, mabey it can then be vented when needed to make sure we don't slip back into an ice age (Volcanoes have saved us in this manner in the past). Technology like this isn't cheap, and it will cost us all, in our taxes, the price of goods, but this is the nature of capitalism, new eco-industries will be formed, generating revenue in themselves, our financial systems will adapt, and eventually we will not understand what all the fuss was about as we will all be riding this new gravy train, people who used to make combustion engines will make whatever replaces them, people who used to build coal power stations, will make wind turbines, etc. We all know climate change has happened in the past, but it doesn't mean we have to accept it as our destiny, imagine, if the deserts of America were to spread out, loosing land at the coast due to sea level rise, more people coming in from an expanding 3rd world, its a bad thing, is it not? Also it's helpfull to remember that, climate changes dont always eventualy return to a norm (look at Mars and Venus), sometimes they are self sustaining processes that, if not corrected go on indefinatley.

            • Posted By: dewcooper @ 12/21/2007 12:45:38 PM

              The point is, you can't control it, no matter what you spend or what you spend it on. If the earth wants to heat, it will heat. If the earth wants to freeze, it will freeze. And in fact it does to do variations of both, and to try and stop, or control it, is obsurd. Also, the idea that Mars and Venus were once like earth is nothing but pure science fiction, and so to think that we may end up as a nother red planet is just silly. And once again, in model showing most of Florida underwater is based more on an active immagination than on actual scientific reocrdings.

              And let's say we put all of the CO2 into the ground. That pressure has to go somewhere. Let's say it causes a plate shift, resulting in a tsunami, killing a million people - would you consider it worth it?

              • Posted By: Froggie76 @ 12/22/2007 4:28:29 AM

                Dewcooper, ethanol is widely used in only one place, that is Brazil. And that's because of 2 big reasons : 1) ethanol from sugar cane is more efficient than corn or sugar beet and 2) Brazil pushed the auto industry to adopt this system for economic as well as energy security issues
                Bio-diesel schemes in the USA and Europe are mostly (if not totally) pork subsidies to farming constituencies and corporation lobbies.

                To summarize your points : climate can't be changed by human activity and that's just a worlwide leftist conspiracy to plunder the US taxpayers. In addition, if any climatic events cause havoc in your area, it's up to yourself to take care of he mess.

                That's just crap

                yes, climatic patterns are a complex ever-changing worldwide system, but the issue, is not whether climate change is changing or not, but whether we are accelerating the process (global warming).
                If that's the case, then it means we, as in Humanity, have an input on climatic patterns, meaning we CAN change climate.

                Climate doesn't stop at a country border. And not all countries have the same input on climate change or the same ressources to tackle it, or prepare for the worst consequences (floods, draughts, tornadoes, temperatures rises/drops ....) which will result in human strifes for the most stable/secure/prosperous lands.

                And no, not more scientist are coming against climate change. if you find more scientist, thewn they are arguing about the gravity of climate forecasts or the methodology. In short, climate change is a scientifically accepted fact !! Unless you ask his opinion to some conservative pundits ... but since when have those guys done anything remotely moral, factual or progressist ?

                And finally, the largest dinosaurs did become extinct because of climate change over a few years. But that was caused mostly to their inability to cope with the kind of changes brought by the collision of a massive asteroid with Earth. If that proves anything, then it is that climate can be affected by external factors.

              • Posted By: A Watchmaker @ 12/21/2007 2:00:33 PM

                I didnt say they were like earth, but mars used to be warmer and venus used to be colder, we know mars once had flowing water, and how scince the entire surface is now well -0c. And on your second point, yes as unlikeley a scenario as that is, it would be worth it to prevent another ice age, as we as a species would only have survived 2 of the last 3 ice ages.

  • Posted By: dewcooper @ 12/18/2007 9:56:49 AM

    The researchers compared predictions of 22 widely used climate "models" ??? elaborate schematics that try to forecast how the global weather system will behave ??? with actual readings gathered by surface stations, weather balloons and orbiting satellites over the past three decades.

    The study, published online this week in the International Journal of Climatology, found that while most of the models predicted that the middle and upper parts of the troposphere ???1 to 6 miles above the Earth's surface ??? would have warmed drastically over the past 30 years, actual observations showed only a little warming, especially over tropical regions.

    "Can the models accurately explain the climate from the recent past? It seems that the answer is no," said lead study author David H. Douglass, a physicist specializing in climate at the University of Rochester.

    The 22 climate models used in this study are the same models used by the UN Intergovernmental Panel of Climate Change (IPCC), which recently shared a Nobel Peace Prize with former Vice President Al Gore.

    "The last 25 years constitute a period of more complete and accurate observations, and more realistic modeling efforts," said Dr. Fred Singer from the University of Virginia. "Nonetheless, the models are seen to disagree with the observations. We suggest, therefore, that projections of future climate based on these models should be viewed with much caution."

    • Posted By: Uncle ho @ 12/20/2007 6:54:04 PM

      dewcropper; Folks don't seem to recall that Amundsen negotiated the Northwest passage in 1905 in a wooden boat. Others did it again in the 1940s. We must understand that many decrying the global warming now were decrying the new ice age in the 70s. Some folks need something to be concerned about. Rest easy my friend.
      Uncle Ho

      • Posted By: dewcooper @ 12/21/2007 1:43:18 PM

        My concern is what is going to be the outcome of their 'fixing' what isn't broken...

  • Posted By: babababy @ 12/19/2007 11:28:38 AM

    I understand the huge concerns involved, but how much of this is climate change and how much of it is due to the depletion of our ozone layer. I feel there is some confusion over what could be a natural occurance, (just like the ice age that brought the ice caps here) and an environmental concern. In one instance, we may be able to slow this change, in the other instance, it's not in our hands.

    • Posted By: A Watchmaker @ 12/20/2007 2:23:24 PM

      No, logicaly if we are causing unnatural climate change, we can affect natural climate change. To simply be defeatist about it and accept extinction is not an option.

  • Posted By: babababy @ 12/19/2007 11:31:44 AM

    How much of this is a natural climate change and how much is an environmental concern, due to the depletion of the ozone layer? One we can hope to slow and the other is completely out of our hands.

  • Posted By: babababy @ 12/19/2007 11:29:09 AM

    I understand the huge concerns involved, but how much of this is climate change and how much of it is due to the depletion of our ozone layer. I feel there is some confusion over what could be a natural occurance, (just like the ice age that brought the ice caps here) and an environmental concern. In one instance, we may be able to slow this change, in the other instance, it's not in our hands.

  • Posted By: rp8 @ 12/18/2007 6:37:52 PM

    Great article. Thanks, from me, and from all America's grandchildren!

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  • Posted By: FATJOEY @ 12/18/2007 2:37:33 PM

    HOGWASH....ALL OF IT!

  • Posted By: dewcooper @ 12/18/2007 10:00:45 AM

    A new NASA-supported study reports that 2007 marked an overall rise in the melting trend over the entire Greenland ice sheet and, remarkably, melting in high-altitude areas was greater than ever at 150 percent more than average. In fact, 'the amount of snow that has melted this year over Greenland could cover the surface size of the U.S. more than twice.'

    The report also contained a graph showing the trend of the melting index in Greenland between 1988 and 2007 in relation to how many surface sizes of the U.S. match the melting index observed each year. (source: NASA press release)

    This has to be one of the more bizarre graphs ever put out by NASA. It shows the annual ???melt area index??? of Greenland in relation to the size of the United States for each year from 1988 to 2007. The value for this year is a bit more than two times the size of the continental U.S. Now considering that the total area of Greenland is just more than one-quarter the area of the lower 48, you may wonder how an area of more than twice the size continental U.S. melted this year in Greenland. Good question.

    The answer lies in what exactly the ???melt area index??? represents. Contrary to what it might seem???the area of Greenland that experience some surface snowmelt???it is in fact, the sum of the area of Greenland that experienced surface snowmelt across all days of the year that melting occurred. Thus if an area of Greenland equal to 1/365th the area of the U.S. experienced melting every day of the year, this would produce a ???melt area index??? for that location equal to the size of the entire contiguous United States. This certainly makes for a wacky comparison, although it certainly sounds impressive!

    Rather than using a picture of the continental U.S. as a metric in their graph, even though it would have been less sensational, NASA should have simply plotted out the time history of the ???melt area index??? for Greenland and left it at that. That would have shown a general rise since NASA Greenland snow melt records began in 1988 up through 2007, but it would also have shown that all of the rise took place from 1988 to 1997. Since then, the ???melt area index??? has shown year-to-year variation, but no real overall change.

  • Posted By: blokesablogin @ 12/18/2007 1:31:02 AM

    Let us begin this process by banning the production and use of styrofoam to begin with and move from there.

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