When Mortgages Made Sense

Should we go back to using the old-fashioned rules for lending?

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  • Posted By: sksforchange @ 12/26/2007 4:27:01 PM

    When I started in the mortgage industry 16 years ago, there was no automated underwriting systems! We did not have the MTA's, stated no income no asset loans. Credit Scores were not even a factor yet. We actually had to use our brains to put a loan together. It amazes me what has transpired and part of me feels like I have wasted all of these years. "Greed" has played a very large part in what has happened in our industry! I personally watched upper management get richer and richer! Their influence certainly did not help the situation. There are still some of us left that truly are in this business to make a difference! And yes most of our consumers do not have the financial savvy to know what they are getting into. Its a loan officers job to properly explain the procedure. To give them that warm and fuzzy feeling! Unfortunately, with the programs and products out their, the income potential a loan officer has, they just sell the most expensive loan they can with the most amount of premium in the rate. I posted here today to basically say, not all of us are greedy lenders, some of us actually love what we do and wish that things would get tightened up a bit. Those who truly are good at their jobs will make it through! Since 2006, 210 mortgage lenders have shut their doors! There will be many more to come and those who survive, hopefully will be the companies, the consumer can go to and get the TLC they deserve!

  • Posted By: besposlen @ 12/20/2007 12:51:03 PM

    The problem with buying houses for most of the Americans really is similar to their eating practices. Americans eat too much, and Americans also want huge houses. And the market and the builders follow that, adding some extra (for the extra cost, of course).
    In my family there are only three of us (parents with one child), so we don???t need a lot of space, especially since we were used to European standards. :) But, when we started looking to buy a house in the USA, we were very disappointed to find out that in new construction or in newer nice suburbs, only huge (2000 square feet and up) houses were available. It???s not that we could not afford that much, but it???s just a waste of money and a huge impact on the environment (think of all extra heating and cooling). We were fortunate to eventually find a nice new house of about 1400 sq.ft., but now it looks like we???ll have to move to a different state (job related), and I???m afraid we???ll have the same problem again.

  • Posted By: www.maxhouse.com @ 12/19/2007 6:09:20 PM

    The real problem is that most consumers don't have the financial savvy to know that they are being robbed by the mortgage companies. Even with a low 30 yr fixed rate, they will pay for the house 2 or 3 times in interest. We should be utilizing Mortgage Checking Accounts like Australians have been using for almost 20 years. Aussies save over $100,000 in mortgage interest and pay their homes off in 7-10 years by simply combining their checking accounts with their mortgage accounts. This would not only save new homebuyers, but many of those who are at risk of losing them in the next few years.

  • Posted By: Bill from Wisconsin @ 12/19/2007 1:12:19 PM

    Historically, the consumer level has always been a cash cow for banks, then the banks lose the money in the big deals. This has been true for at least 100 years (according to an English banker I got to talk with). What makes this interesting is that the typical "balanced" discussion has greedy banks versus ignorant or untrusworthy borrowers. All of this is silly if you look at this instead as a game like football. There you have a clear set of rules any clod can understand : buying a house should be about the same. clean and clear. There still is plenty of profit to be made with a three point spread for the bankers; and plenty of equity to be built up by the homeowners. And all of this can be had through a stable economy (which might be the real catch).

  • Posted By: financially responsible @ 12/19/2007 10:05:29 AM

    I am an investor that has used all of the above loans, as well as interest only and negative amortizing loans. The difference between myself and most others; is that I am a sophisticated investor and understood the risks, rewards, did it many times before, and had reasonable expectations. Others???leveraging into a home or investments they couldn???t afford ???.took on financing they barely understood???.expected to get rich quick and now???. wonder why they are in trouble.

  • Posted By: FreedM @ 12/18/2007 5:38:34 PM

    A few thoughts...

    1) Prepayment penalties should be outlawed? Fine, but the mortgage companies that lend with them do so not to punish the borrower, but to make sure they make money. Eliminate them and you'll find rates for subprime borrowers going up.

    2) No-income verification loans should be outlawed? The problem is that the people who use these loans are, by and large, self employed as small business owners, or independent contractors like salespeople. These folks take big writeoffs on their tax returns - that's a benefit of self employment. Eliminating this type of mortgage will shut these people out of the mortgage market completely. Should small business owners not be allowed to buy houses?
    3) Adjustable rate mortgages DO make sense for many people who will be making more in a few years' time. This includes people who are recent graduates. These loans enable people to pay on the "intro" rate and build equity in their homes while their income is lower and handle the payment (or more likely, refinance) as the rates go up. Should people who are recent graduates be denied mortgage loans?

    Folks, it ain't the products - it's how they're used.

    • Posted By: financially responsible @ 12/19/2007 9:58:33 AM

      Correct on all counts; I am an investor that has used all of the above loans, as well as interest only and negative amortizing loans. The difference between myself and most others; is that I am a sophisticated investor and understood the risks, rewards, had reasonable expectations, and had done it many times before. Others???leveraging into a home or investments they couldn???t afford ???.taking on financing they barely understood???.expecting to get rich over night, and now???. wondering why they are in trouble.

    • Posted By: galabar @ 12/18/2007 6:03:50 PM

      Agreed. Their are legitimate uses for all of these. Taking them away will limit options for those that *can* afford the associated loan. This, in turn, will weaken the economy.

  • Posted By: phowells @ 12/18/2007 4:56:54 PM

    Usary laws should be reinstated. Adjustable rates should be outlawed, as should contractual balloon payments and prepayment penalties. Changes in contractual obligations should be reciprocal: if a lender can change the terms of the contract at will, the borrower should be able to do the same. Futhermore, selling a contract is nonsense; A borrows from B; B sells the contract to C; B and C now have a contract, A and C do not...C does not have a single piece of paper with both A's and C's signatures on it. Why should A give C a single dime? C certainly did not give A anything. Oops ... I forgot ... every contract anyone has been handed in the last 40 years has had identical wording: "The customer is always wrong and the seller is contractually obligated to screw the buyer."

    • Posted By: Unemployed Mtg Pro @ 12/19/2007 12:11:52 AM

      Actually there is a document that A signs indicating they are aware that B sells servicing on their mortgage. A needs to take the time to read the documentation they are signing and ask questions if something is not understood. All of the new disclosures in the world won't make a difference if people don't take the time to read them.

    • Posted By: galabar @ 12/18/2007 5:52:13 PM

      In the end, the only way to fix things is to deny loans to those who can't afford them. You can attack the lender all you want. However, the result of your strategy will, ultimately, be felt by the sub prime borrower.

      All of your suggestions would causes loans to be more expensive for sub prime borrowers. You can feel morally superior by attacking lenders. However, you need to understand who you are really attacking (maybe you already do).

    • Posted By: BCinColorado @ 12/18/2007 5:30:31 PM

      My wife and I bought our first house in 1993 with an ARM. It was the only way we could afford a home. However, we educated ourselves about what happens to an ARM over the life of the loan. We knew what we were getting into and planned accordingly. When the adjustable rate crossed the fixed rate we refinanced. Why are we so quick to bail people out of bad decisions? All you hear about is foreclosure rate. What about the rate of people NOT foreclosing who are in a home they would not otherwise be in? The faster the market resets the faster we can put this behind us. And yes, that means people in over their heads will lose! That is the consequence of making a bad decision like VOLUNTARILY SIGNING A LOAN THEY CAN NOT AFFORD IN THE LONG RUN!

  • Posted By: hollandaze @ 12/18/2007 7:10:29 PM

    When I was a child, home-ownership was a privilege that brought ties to neighborhoods. People oftentimes lived in those homes until their death, oftentimes passing on the home to their children. Now, you can drive across America and see big, sprawling homes occupied by one or two people. Unless you have 5 kids, who needs a 10,000 sf house? Even then, there are parents who have raised kids in homes with much less square footage. Home buying today seems to be geared solely towards optimizing one's capital gains. People hopscotch from larger home to larger home to satisfy that insatiable appetite for captial gains. Who envisioned that a 3-bedroom, 2-bath home would cost more than $500,000? There's enough blame to go around, blame sub-prime borrowers, blame unscrupulous lenders, but the real blame is greed. Some people, like myself, just would like a place to call their own; to feel connected to the community. I don't have much faith that common sense lending will return as the law of the land, as Mr. Greenstein envisions.

  • Posted By: hollandaze @ 12/18/2007 7:09:12 PM

    When I was a child, home-ownership was a privilege that brought ties to neighborhoods. People oftentimes lived in those homes until their death, oftentimes passing on the home to their children. Now, you can drive across America and see big, sprawling homes occupied by one or two people. Unless you have 5 kids, who needs a 10,000 sf house? Even then, there are parents who have raised kids in homes with much less square footage. Home buying today seems to be geared solely towards optimizing one's capital gains. People hopscotch from larger home to larger home to satisfy that insatiable appetite for captial gains. Who envisioned that a 3-bedroom, 2-bath home would cost more than $500,000? There's enough blame to go around, blame sub-prime borrowers, blame unscrupulous lenders, but the real blame is greed. Some people, like myself, just would like a place to call their own; to feel connected to the community. I don't have much faith that common sense lending will return as the law of the land, as Mr. Greenstein envisions.

  • Posted By: drsyko1 @ 12/18/2007 3:57:18 PM

    To go back to the old rules will mean that only the very rich will be able to afford to buy a house. Or it may have the affect of depressing the housing market even further--if so few people would be able to afford a house at the current prices, then values would likely drop precipitously in high housing cost areas. Right now where I live the median price for a house if $440k, which represents a 10% drop from a year ago. If you went back to requiring 20% down, how many people would be able to buy a house at this price?? How many people can really come up with $88,000 for a down payment, plus all the other costs of moving? Not many. And even if you could, your mortgage would be around $3000 a month or more, so if you want to stick with the payment not being more than 30% of income, the person or couple would need to make $9000 a month. Again, how many people make that much money?? So much for the American dream. Obviously, reform needs to take place, but going back to the old rules is not going to work, unless you also plan to go back to the old housing prices as well. I, for one, would more than welcome that, since then I could easily affort to buy a house, but I doubt many current home owners would like it!

    • Posted By: galabar @ 12/18/2007 5:43:49 PM

      Your post is contradictory. You want a house that you can afford, but you don't want to "depress the housing market." So, let me get this straight, you want the government to give you a $440,000 house while you pay only $150,000 for it?

      • Posted By: drsyko1 @ 12/18/2007 6:12:13 PM

        No, my post is not contradictory. YOU are just acting contradictory and snide. Where exactly in my post did I say anything about the government giving me a house for $150,000?? Was that written in invisible type somewhere? Because I don't see it. What I said was that of course if prices went down it would obviously make those of us who could then afford a house happy, but it would also make current homeowners unhappy. I never said it would be a good thing overall. I said nothing about anyone giving me anything. And there is nothing contradictory about what I did say Next time, how about responding to what is actually said instead of what's in your head.

  • Posted By: tigerjohnni @ 12/18/2007 4:14:27 PM

    28% of a good salary of $70,000/yr could'nt afford a 1 bedroom condo, where i live in milford, ct. prices need to come way down to reality of the average workers salarys.

    • Posted By: galabar @ 12/18/2007 5:40:29 PM

      I think the point is that it would ($1667/month) if the standard was 28/36.

  • Posted By: pricemc1 @ 12/18/2007 4:47:05 PM

    Alot of people say that 28/36 is a bad ratio that they couldn't afford. The truth is though that by changing ratio this we have created the boom that led to this mess in the first place. Housing prices would not have ever gone through the roof if we had stayed with the older method. The older method encouraged people to be responsible, save money, and help them make sure that they could really afford what they bought. Now we have people who shouldn't be able to afford anything buying $500,000+ houses. This creates an imbalance in the housing market and leads to the mess we have today. People shouldn't expect to live in a McMansion if they flip burgers for a living. My wife is a realtor and sold many houses to just such people. Now they are all loosing them because they should have never qualified for them in the first place.

    • Posted By: FreedM @ 12/18/2007 5:39:46 PM

      And what's happened as a result of the boom? A lot of people were able to make a LOT of money on selling their homes, or were able to use the equity to invest, or send their kids to college. People focus on the bad without looking at the good.

    • Posted By: galabar @ 12/18/2007 5:38:24 PM

      So, your wife sold McMansions to burger flippers? How does she feel about that? Does she have some responsibility for this mess? Should a Realtor(TM) have any fiscal duty to her clients?

  • Posted By: ctubbs @ 12/18/2007 4:28:08 PM

    I don't think most people can rent an apartment for 28 percent of their income, much less purchase a home. That change alone could have a larger effect on the housing market than the whole sub-prime mess. I think the amount people pay for housing has as much to do with varying rates of inflation as with irresponsibility in loan financing. For instance: I doubt the author would advise that people should only pay the same percentage of their income for health insurance that was normal in the 1960's. This would quickly result in Emergency Room's being the primary care provider for the nation. At the same time, a consumer item like a power saw or a referigerator would sell today for a price similar to the 1960's dollar value without adjusting for inflation.

  • Posted By: tigerjohnni @ 12/18/2007 4:12:43 PM

    28% OF A SINGLE PERSONS INCOME OF 70,000/YR, WOULD'NT BE ABLE TO BUT A 1 BEDROM HOME IN THE SLUMS.

  • Posted By: alitlcyn @ 12/18/2007 3:39:24 PM

    I understand that guidelines need to tighten without elinination of loans for the self employed borrowers. I have always thought automation could be a problem. But if they the banks and investors do not loosen up the monies borrowers need to refinance or buy a home, then all the reform will be to no avail. The industry is scared of its own shadow. Scared of the rules they made. Now even full documentation is not good enough. Something must give. We need to look at the whole picture, lower rates won't give borrowers the ability to obtain loans that investors are affraid to purchase.

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