‘I Get a Little Wonky’

Do you agree with Niebuhr that "the sad duty of politics is to establish justice in a sinful world"?
I agree with him that that always has to be one of the missions. I believe that human nature being what it is, our Founders were not only political philosophers but great psychologists, and understood the limits of human power but also the reach of human ambition … But I also believe that human beings are capable of not only the most debasing and terrible actions but ennobling and enlightening ones as well.

How important is Wesley and your faith?
It is the core of who I am. In my family, we were Americans, we were Republicans and we were Methodists. It all kind of combined in me to motivate me in my faith life, in love of my country, in my work in politics. "Do all the good you can"—how do you do that?

A theologian once described Wesley's doctrine as "the push of duty and the pull of grace."
I feel that every day. I have been sustained over the course of my life by prayer, and by those who have prayed for me, by my understanding and commitment to my faith, and by those inexplicable moments of grace. Sometimes you are down as far as you can go, and you are there for a long time before it happens. And you try really hard to make it happen and it doesn't happen, and you have to be willing to let it go … What happened to me last Monday morning in Portsmouth [N.H.] was a moment of grace. It was so touching and so affecting to me. If I had sat down and thought of a thousand ways I can better let people know who I am, and what I care about, that would not have been on the list, but it was who I am and what I care about, and it was a connection that I find often when I am out doing this work. I have been so run through the gauntlets time and time again, I've had my motives questioned, my personality, my performance, everything derided and undermined.

The fact that you and Senator Obama are running is prompting a lot of soul-searching in the Democratic Party. A pastor in South Carolina told us, "I really hate that they had to run at the same time in the same election. It just makes what should be a wonderful situation very stressful for folk like me."
And I understand that. What a good problem to have. Two leading candidates for president, a woman and an African-American, who are being viewed, I hope, on our merits, our qualifications, our records, our plans, our vision. I don't think it's easy for either of us. And I really commend Senator Obama for the very graceful way that he has navigated this campaign. I wish it didn't have to be a choice. I think a lot of people who are torn between us feel that way. But it is a contest, and the contrasts have to be drawn and the questions have to be asked because, obviously, I wouldn't be in this race and working as hard as I am unless I thought I am uniquely qualified at this moment in our history to be the president we need starting in 2009 … I think it is informed by my deep experience over the last 35 years, my firsthand knowledge of what goes on inside a White House.

Senator, the Obama campaign has accused you and your husband of being racist in the "fairy tale" comment of the president's and your President Johnson remark.
I find it both baseless and divisive. I believe so strongly that both Bill and I have been champions for civil rights and human rights. I personally am offended by what they have tried to do in a very misleading way with what I've said about two of my personal icons, President Kennedy and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. And I hope that this will not become an issue in the campaign. I was personally moved and profoundly influenced by hearing Dr. King when I was a 14-year-old child. I was so admiring of the extraordinary work he did over so many years, risking his life, his family's life, being beaten and gassed and jailed, standing up for common human decency and the rights of every person to be given their full due under our laws. And if it had not been for him and the work he did, we would not have made the progress that we achieved. Many people played a role in that, and I think Dr. King would tell you, he lobbied, he campaigned, he was on the front lines, not just in the civil- rights marches but in political debates, and I think it is important that everyone recognize the profound and extraordinary historic contribution he made—which I certainly do. And on the other characterization, my husband can speak for himself, but that is certainly not what anyone who was there thought he said. He was specifically referring to the sequence of claims and actions around Senator Obama's Iraq record, which I think is fair game. I think it's appropriate for people to have information. We are getting into some very difficult days coming up in this campaign. I am going to continue to draw the contrasts that really began in earnest during the debate in New Hampshire, but I am going to hope that everybody takes a deep breath. I was shocked when Senator Obama's chief strategist practically accused me of being somehow responsible for Benazir Bhutto's assassination. There is just a lot that people say that you regret, and there are things that you say that get taken out of context and are used inappropriately, and I think we ought to stick to the facts as much as possible.

You said some of us are right and some of us are wrong, some of us are ready and some of us are not. Is Senator Obama right enough or experienced enough to be vice president?
[Laughs.] Well, I'm going to stay focused on where I am right now. I'm an admirer of his; I campaigned for him; I raised money for him. When Bill and I were invited to go down to New Orleans to see firsthand the tragedy of what happened in Katrina and Rita, I called Senator Obama and asked him to come with us. I am a very big admirer of his, and I think the sky is the limit for him—in the future. [Laughs.]

© 2008