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By Giulia Carbonaro
Senior Reporter
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Podcaster Joe Rogan clashed with guest Michael Shellenberger over Jeffrey Epstein's death, asking why the author was dismissing suspicions that the sex offender may not have died by suicide.
During Tuesday's episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, the pair discussed newly surfaced Department of Justice records that showed Tova Noel—the last prison guard to see Epstein alive—had made a $5,000 cash deposit 10 days before Epstein's death and had Googled him minutes before he was found dead at New York's Metropolitan Correctional Center in August 2019.
Noel was also accused of falsifying records to show that she checked on Epstein throughout the night of his death. CCTV footage shows that Noel and another guard did not check on Epstein for about eight hours.
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On Tuesday, Rogan raised the possibility that Epstein may not have died by suicide. "You do have a guard, and all of a sudden this guard acquires several payments. She made several deposits. One of them was $5,000 just 10 days before he died," the podcaster said.
Rogan continued: "And then the cameras are cut. OK? And then they mysteriously don't pay attention to the cell of one of the most important defendants of any case, any gigantic public case involving enormously famous public figures, and then this guy hangs himself while he's on suicide watch?"
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Shellenberger responded: "I had that same story. I was like: 'The cameras are cut. The security guards are asleep.' All those things are true. It's also true that the cameras went out a long time before that night. It didn't just go out that night before. Security guards fall asleep at night all the time. He attempted suicide, I believe, 18 days before."
Regarding theories that Epstein did not die by suicide, Shellenberger said: "I, like a lot of other people, had assumed that someone murdered him. But you start looking at the evidence for that ... they are not actually evidence of it."
"Why are you dismissing this? I don't understand why you're dismissing this," Rogan said.
What Do We Know About Epstein's Death?
Epstein was found dead in his cell at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in Manhattan on August 10, 2019. Though New York City Chief Medical Examiner Dr. Barbara Sampson ruled has death a suicide by hanging, it immediately fueled conspiracy theories alleging that the financier was murdered because of what he knew about powerful people.
In January 2020, five months after the convicted sex offender was found dead, CBS News asked multiple forensic pathologists to analyze photographs that the New York City medical examiner's office had taken inside Epstein's cell and of his autopsy. The forensic pathologists said they could not determine the cause of his death with certainty.
"Even after reviewing all the autopsy photos, reading the autopsy, and looking at the photos from inside the cell, we still have questions," 60 Minutes correspondent Sharyn Alfonsi said at the time.
Much has been said of the injuries observed on Epstein's body during the autopsy—especially injuries to the financier's neck.
"I have never seen three fractures like this in a suicidal hanging," forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden, whom Epstein's estate and brother had hired, told CBS News in 2020. He added: "Going over a thousand jail hangings, suicides in the New York City state prisons over the past 40-50 years, no one had three fractures."
Dr. Kristin Roman, the New York City medical examiner who performed the autopsy on Epstein's body, did not at the time check the box for "homicide" or "suicide" on his death certificate. Instead, she checked the box for "pending studies." This, too, fueled conspiracy theories around Epstein's death, though the recently released Epstein files showed that Roman agreed with Sampson's conclusion.
What Is Rogan Saying About It?
In the latest episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, Shellenberger eventually concluded that there was a case for both sides—those who believe Epstein died by suicide and those who do not. "You can make a case either way is my point. You can make the case that he was murdered," he said. "You can make the case he was suicidal."
Rogan agreed, but maintained that circumstantial evidence would suggest it was homicide.
As the host of one of the world's most popular podcasts, Rogan is an influential figure. He has an estimated audience of about 11 million listeners. While the podcaster endorsed Trump on the eve of the 2024 presidential election, he has since repeatedly turned against the president, criticizing his handling of, among other things, the Epstein files.
A few weeks ago, Rogan accused the Trump administration of gaslighting the American public over the Epstein case, casting doubt over the FBI's conclusion that Epstein was not running a sex trafficking ring for powerful men.
If you or someone you know is considering suicide, contact the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline by dialing 988, text "988" to the Crisis Text Line at 741741 or go to 988lifeline.org.
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